I myself love odd warrior and even warlock, but I still think, that Baku and Genn are a problem. They just make the game to linear. Something like Zoo is also fast and aggressive deck as odd palladin is, but it has many permutations. With Baku though they always hero power on turn 2 and 4, usually playing a 3 drop on turn 3 and then try to level up or Fungalmancer and control ways operate in similar way trying to abuse the button as much as possible.
Interesting point about them was actually made by Kibler. If they were in Kobolds they would be fine. You would have interesting decks for last couple of months of 2017 and bunch of odd and even in 2018, but with Bilizzard releasing them in Witchwood they will be in standard for the maximum amount of time possible. While from balance perspective they might not be that bad, they just might get too repetitive in a couple of months and quality of gameplay should be maybe even bigger concern for the Hearthstone team. That is why Yogg was nerfed not because it was to strong, but because it made the outcome of the game too random. Well Baku and Genn decks are on the other side of that spectrum.
The problem with genn/baku is that they are too consistent. You didn't draw justicar trueheart every game in a reasonable manner. With these the consistency is infuriating because they always have it. Turn 2 tank up, turn 1 random totem, always have 2/2 dagger for 2, etc. etc. are all unreasonable effects to have that early in a game and to always have. It only gets worse in wild as more cards are printed as they only get better even/odd card selection each expansion to push the deck further. About the only hatecard they've printed for hero powers is mediocre at best and horrible at worst in mindbreaker.
The problem with genn/baku is that they are too consistent. You didn't draw justicar trueheart every game in a reasonable manner. With these the consistency is infuriating because they always have it. Turn 2 tank up, turn 1 random totem, always have 2/2 dagger for 2, etc. etc. are all unreasonable effects to have that early in a game and to always have. It only gets worse in wild as more cards are printed as they only get better even/odd card selection each expansion to push the deck further. About the only hatecard they've printed for hero powers is mediocre at best and horrible at worst in mindbreaker.
In Wild the Genn effect is not that great except for warlock and shaman, don't break anything and still a meh card 6/5 for 6 manas, the Baku effect is great but you have to give up many good cards in even cost to get that and for every time you don't draw Justicar you draw Baku, a horrible 7/8 for freaking 9 manas, a completely useless card.
Everything put in perspective both cards are fine.
Doesn't help that routinely, with every rotation, phrases like "Its wild's problem now!" are said as if it is any better for the game that another format has to deal with problem cards.
My main problem with odd (and to a lesser extent even) decks is the oppressive feeling you get playing against them. I'd much rather have a back and forth, anyone can win type match, than either I have a way to deal with the upgraded hero power or I don't and get smashed every turn.
I'm already wondering if this is just another 'I lost to or dislike this archtype so I think it is a problem' thread as opposed to an actual logical 'This archtype is bad for the game and here are my points about why' type of thread.
If that's all it was, I'd have gone to bitch in the salt thread. Perfectly willing to have a discussion.
So let me get this straight. Since deck limitation themes don't produce crippled meme/lower tier decks that only work sometimes means Genn & Baku are problems since they have other ways of making the archtypes work? Are you serious?
Even with Reno decks they still had the weakness of only having a single copy of a particular card. Sure, Reno Mage or Reno lock could have more than one removal, but sometimes you needed that one specific piece of removal for a situation that wouldn't be satisfied with a different removal you drew (e.g. Blast Crystal vs Shadowbolt).
Genn & Baku aren't problems because you still have to play around removal (such as the case of having to play around Collider in Odd Warrior). I mean, you get to not have to deal with Execute am I correct? You could be facing a control warrior with both Execute & Collider after all.
"Deck limitation themes" are theoretically fine. In practice, the more reliable the gimmick, the less variety you see in the decks. Genn and Baku have a guaranteed gimmick, with the only real downside being that you need to include an under-statted minion in the deck. (Odd/even is not much of a sacrifice, especially in wild.) How many odd or even decks have surprised you with an unexpected card lately? They were novel for about five minutes and are now a big snooze.
Reno decks have/had a much greater degree of variety, though we now only see warlocks. Games were usually interesting except the Raza crap.
I have no idea what you are trying to say in your last point (or perhaps just why it's significant). You always have to play around removal. Yes, G&B tell you what you won't need to face. Great. Wild has planty of alternatives to choose from.
These two suggest the emergence of permanent, high-power archetypes that damage variety. (Even shaman appears to be the main culprit for wild, at the moment.) Hopefully they will become irrelevant or people will tire of them, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
Odd & even decks are then a problem because the use the same staples? Geez, that isn't anything at all like non-odd/even net decks in wild is it? Tell me how often you run into a wild Control Lock, Big Priest, KIngsbane Rogue, Evolve Shaman, etc that also didn't copy pasta their build from someone else. I really fail to see how your point is relevant in the context of an odd/even debate. If it wasn't an Odd or Even net deck it would be a 'regular' one.
See that is where I feel you fall into a pitfall with your argument. Odd & Even decks weren't meant to be gimmicks (at least in general since some classes for odd or even aren't that great). Allow me to make a comparison with WoW. For awhile people felt that shamans & paladins (back when they were faction restricted and even beyond that point) needed to be weak since they had multiple tools at their disposal, thus rendering them a versatile yet weak class until the design team started getting things right. In HS a vocal minority have this general line of thinking as well, that odd & even are supposed to be weaker than many other decks because they get a hero power upgrade/alteration. Why do you feel this is to be the case? Those decks are already limiting what removal/value they can take advantage of due to being only even or odd.
The problem with genn/baku is that they are too consistent. You didn't draw justicar trueheart every game in a reasonable manner. With these the consistency is infuriating because they always have it. Turn 2 tank up, turn 1 random totem, always have 2/2 dagger for 2, etc. etc. are all unreasonable effects to have that early in a game and to always have. It only gets worse in wild as more cards are printed as they only get better even/odd card selection each expansion to push the deck further. About the only hatecard they've printed for hero powers is mediocre at best and horrible at worst in mindbreaker.
Too consistent compared to what? And why are we even posing that as a legitimate point? It's like trying to argue that regular control lock is a problem because it is a consistent slow deck that doesn't suffer from a low win rate.
And make the archtypes turn into another Keleseth experience (draw them early and you win & draw them late and you lose)?
Also the point of Even decks is to get an early advantage because 1 mana hero powers in the late game are very meaningless since you will almost always have a spare mana for what would have been a normal 2 mana hero power anyway. Having to wait many turns before getting a raza effect for a non-raza bursty deck seems like a terrible benefit for limiting yourself to half of the cards.
I saw a funny idea to add a card that gives a benefit for decks with both odd and even cards (but that's probably problematic too, would be run in every non odd/even deck).
It should have a mana cost that is both even and odd simultaneously to be run in both types of decks lol
Justicar have used in very few classes, warrior and priest control and midrange paladin, the others the upgraded hero power is irrelevant after turn 6, after turn 9 even the control decks don't will use because at that point you already win or lose vs aggro and midrange and in control vs control matchs don't is a big deal.
Both cards are ok, balanced and well designed, you have to sacrifice something when build the deck that is much more fun and desired than powerful brainless cards like prenerf Patches and Creeper in every deck from every archetype.
I think there is definitely something to note when these decks with massive drawbacks end up being the best in the meta. For cards with drawbacks they are insanely easy to mitigate.
I think there is definitely something to note when these decks with massive drawbacks end up being the best in the meta. For cards with drawbacks they are insanely easy to mitigate.
Many classes can't be odd.
Warlock and shaman, the upgraded hero power don't compensate the lose of even cards.
Many classes can't be even, hunter for example have too many good cards costing 3 manas.
If was so easy to mitigate we only see odd/even decks and this is far from true.
If anything they promote creativity and get you to include cards that normally would never see play.
I mean Raid Leader is in a tier 1 deck. RAID LEADER!
This is the dumbest argument ever
Actually there is merit in the argument. NOBODY playing a competitive deck played Raid Leader or Stormwind Champion in a real deck for crying out loud before the odd/even split. People just ignore that initially that was a creative and dumbfounding deck building decision because it has been a net deck for awhile. It's easy to dismiss initial deck building creativity after something has become a net deck. I actually remember a wild version of this when people dismissed my Star Aligner deck before it released, called a meme and poo-pooed on it by saying it wasn't as good as Maly Druid. After it released and became a net deck people hated it. Same thing here with odd/even.
Exactly. This is why I can't understand why Blizzard even tries to balance wild.
"or even-cost cards"
I myself love odd warrior and even warlock, but I still think, that Baku and Genn are a problem. They just make the game to linear. Something like Zoo is also fast and aggressive deck as odd palladin is, but it has many permutations. With Baku though they always hero power on turn 2 and 4, usually playing a 3 drop on turn 3 and then try to level up or Fungalmancer and control ways operate in similar way trying to abuse the button as much as possible.
Interesting point about them was actually made by Kibler. If they were in Kobolds they would be fine. You would have interesting decks for last couple of months of 2017 and bunch of odd and even in 2018, but with Bilizzard releasing them in Witchwood they will be in standard for the maximum amount of time possible. While from balance perspective they might not be that bad, they just might get too repetitive in a couple of months and quality of gameplay should be maybe even bigger concern for the Hearthstone team. That is why Yogg was nerfed not because it was to strong, but because it made the outcome of the game too random. Well Baku and Genn decks are on the other side of that spectrum.
Cough cough cough Mindbreaker
The problem with genn/baku is that they are too consistent. You didn't draw justicar trueheart every game in a reasonable manner. With these the consistency is infuriating because they always have it. Turn 2 tank up, turn 1 random totem, always have 2/2 dagger for 2, etc. etc. are all unreasonable effects to have that early in a game and to always have. It only gets worse in wild as more cards are printed as they only get better even/odd card selection each expansion to push the deck further. About the only hatecard they've printed for hero powers is mediocre at best and horrible at worst in mindbreaker.
In Wild the Genn effect is not that great except for warlock and shaman, don't break anything and still a meh card 6/5 for 6 manas, the Baku effect is great but you have to give up many good cards in even cost to get that and for every time you don't draw Justicar you draw Baku, a horrible 7/8 for freaking 9 manas, a completely useless card.
Everything put in perspective both cards are fine.
Doesn't help that routinely, with every rotation, phrases like "Its wild's problem now!" are said as if it is any better for the game that another format has to deal with problem cards.
My main problem with odd (and to a lesser extent even) decks is the oppressive feeling you get playing against them. I'd much rather have a back and forth, anyone can win type match, than either I have a way to deal with the upgraded hero power or I don't and get smashed every turn.
Odd & even decks are then a problem because the use the same staples? Geez, that isn't anything at all like non-odd/even net decks in wild is it? Tell me how often you run into a wild Control Lock, Big Priest, KIngsbane Rogue, Evolve Shaman, etc that also didn't copy pasta their build from someone else. I really fail to see how your point is relevant in the context of an odd/even debate. If it wasn't an Odd or Even net deck it would be a 'regular' one.
See that is where I feel you fall into a pitfall with your argument. Odd & Even decks weren't meant to be gimmicks (at least in general since some classes for odd or even aren't that great). Allow me to make a comparison with WoW. For awhile people felt that shamans & paladins (back when they were faction restricted and even beyond that point) needed to be weak since they had multiple tools at their disposal, thus rendering them a versatile yet weak class until the design team started getting things right. In HS a vocal minority have this general line of thinking as well, that odd & even are supposed to be weaker than many other decks because they get a hero power upgrade/alteration. Why do you feel this is to be the case? Those decks are already limiting what removal/value they can take advantage of due to being only even or odd.
Too consistent compared to what? And why are we even posing that as a legitimate point? It's like trying to argue that regular control lock is a problem because it is a consistent slow deck that doesn't suffer from a low win rate.
Their effects should be battlecry.
Dead but dreaming
And make the archtypes turn into another Keleseth experience (draw them early and you win & draw them late and you lose)?
Also the point of Even decks is to get an early advantage because 1 mana hero powers in the late game are very meaningless since you will almost always have a spare mana for what would have been a normal 2 mana hero power anyway. Having to wait many turns before getting a raza effect for a non-raza bursty deck seems like a terrible benefit for limiting yourself to half of the cards.
If they WERE battlecry, WHY would Paladin ever run Baku over Justicarr?
Do you ever think before you type, or is it just whatever random keys you step on?
It should have a mana cost that is both even and odd simultaneously to be run in both types of decks lol
I think Bloodreaver Gul'dan is a bigger problem
cause you can't run Justicar Trueheart in Standard, they can also nerf Justicar Trueheart to the ground if you really want to...
Dead but dreaming
Justicar have used in very few classes, warrior and priest control and midrange paladin, the others the upgraded hero power is irrelevant after turn 6, after turn 9 even the control decks don't will use because at that point you already win or lose vs aggro and midrange and in control vs control matchs don't is a big deal.
Both cards are ok, balanced and well designed, you have to sacrifice something when build the deck that is much more fun and desired than powerful brainless cards like prenerf Patches and Creeper in every deck from every archetype.
I think there is definitely something to note when these decks with massive drawbacks end up being the best in the meta. For cards with drawbacks they are insanely easy to mitigate.
Many classes can't be odd.
Warlock and shaman, the upgraded hero power don't compensate the lose of even cards.
Many classes can't be even, hunter for example have too many good cards costing 3 manas.
If was so easy to mitigate we only see odd/even decks and this is far from true.
Actually there is merit in the argument. NOBODY playing a competitive deck played Raid Leader or Stormwind Champion in a real deck for crying out loud before the odd/even split. People just ignore that initially that was a creative and dumbfounding deck building decision because it has been a net deck for awhile. It's easy to dismiss initial deck building creativity after something has become a net deck. I actually remember a wild version of this when people dismissed my Star Aligner deck before it released, called a meme and poo-pooed on it by saying it wasn't as good as Maly Druid. After it released and became a net deck people hated it. Same thing here with odd/even.