Hearthpwn

So playing against a Pally today and had the following play happen:

He was in fatigue, so no cards in his deck.  He had casted enough spells to play Shirvallah, the Tiger for 0 cost.  Followed up with Baleful Banker to shuffle a copy into his deck.  Finally he played Holy Wrath and proceeded to deal 25 damage to face, ending the game.

Several questions here.

1. Baleful makes a copy, so the copied Shirvallah should be 0 cost as well, thus no way for Wrath to deal full 25

2. Assuming that Baleful resets the 25 cost for Shirvallah, then shouldn't casting of Wrath reduce it's cost to 20, so that much damage instead?

3. Does the "Cost (1) less for each Mana you've spent on spells" prompt remain at the discounted rate for duplicates of any case?  For example if a rogue were to Sap Shirvallah, would the cost then reset?

Playing spells to discount cost happens while Shirvallah is in deck, doesn't have to be in hand - so theoretically the Wrath draw should have been 0 damage to face, and not 25.  Discuss?

The cost is not resetted. 
Is a consistency fact:
When you put a card in your deck, NO ONE knows where it is and what it is. So it's stats are the default one, then when you draw it you know every enchantements and costs reduction aswell.

The only card that is messing with this rule is the Druid quest, but is wanted, is like an aura effect.

Quote from Dragonsscars >>

The cost is not resetted. 
Is a consistency fact:
When you put a card in your deck, NO ONE knows where it is and what it is. So it's stats are the default one, then when you draw it you know every enchantements and costs reduction aswell.

The only card that is messing with this rule is the Druid quest, but is wanted, is like an aura effect.

 Exactly that  It is like Schrodinger Cat. You don't know it until you observe it.

Similar to Druid Quest, Rogue Quest is an aura too. That is why Quest Rogue is changed to make it work the same as druid's. Now all minion in the decks are 4/4 instead of becoming 4/4 when you draw. 

Shirvallah works the same way giants do. They cost 25 (or whatever else) in deck and then change cost when they enter your hand. The reduction is retained across all copies so Sap doesn’t reset reductions. I know this because mine got Freezing Trapped.

Quote from khangkhanh >>

Quote from Dragonsscars >>

The cost is not resetted. 
Is a consistency fact:
When you put a card in your deck, NO ONE knows where it is and what it is. So it's stats are the default one, then when you draw it you know every enchantements and costs reduction aswell.

The only card that is messing with this rule is the Druid quest, but is wanted, is like an aura effect.

 Exactly that  It is like Schrodinger Cat. You don't know it until you observe it.

Similar to Druid Quest, Rogue Quest is an aura too. That is why Quest Rogue is changed to make it work the same as druid's. Now all minion in the decks are 4/4 instead of becoming 4/4 when you draw. 

Academic Espionage works like that also. When you clean your deck and add 1-cost cards all of the odd synergy cards become yellow. 

Also I think new Spirit of the Dead works like that aswell.

Quote from WhatAChamp >>

Shirvallah works the same way giants do. They cost 25 (or whatever else) in deck and then change cost when they enter your hand. The reduction is retained across all copies so Sap doesn’t reset reductions. I know this because mine got Freezing Trapped.

 So if that is the case, how come I got hit with 25 damage? or furthermore the casting of a spell reducing Shirvallah cost by 5 so 20 damage instead?  I believe the "shuffle" reset the cost, that is the only explanation

its actually a really old deck
used to use molten giant before and so this deck works the same
holy wrath uses the original cost and not the green reduced number on the card
when you shuffle Shirvallah the amount of mana spent on spells that game doesnt change
and so Shirvallah will be discounted still

Quote from Darkersilhoutte >>

Quote from WhatAChamp >>

Shirvallah works the same way giants do. They cost 25 (or whatever else) in deck and then change cost when they enter your hand. The reduction is retained across all copies so Sap doesn’t reset reductions. I know this because mine got Freezing Trapped.

 So if that is the case, how come I got hit with 25 damage? or furthermore the casting of a spell reducing Shirvallah cost by 5 so 20 damage instead?  I believe the "shuffle" reset the cost, that is the only explanation

 It works the same way as any of the joust mechanics did. The cost of the card is remains the printed cost while in your deck. When you play Holy Wrath, it checks the mana cost (25) and hits someone for that. When the card enters your hand, it goes back down to whatever reduced cost it had. Like someone said above, this has been around for ages with Molten Giants and worked the exact same way. The cost definitely doesn't reset once it goes back in the deck as I've seen people pull it again on streams after using banker and the cost was still reduced.

The tiger costs 25 when drawn and when it is in your hand, it costs 0 because the discount is applied just then.

It also worked the same with molten giant.

Year holy wrath only Looks at the Blue crystal Showing the costs. Imagine someone flipping through numbered papers. The card costs 25. the effect though lets you Play it Cheaper. The 0 cost actually appears Green. Showing you that the number is modified through effects. Bit it still costs 25

Oh another thing on the topic of Shirvallah is if you get one through random generation such as cloning device in priest it will be discounted by the amount of mana you have spent that game on spells

Card text happens after drawing the card. It's a HS technicality. Unless you specifically enchant a card in your deck (eg keleseth) the copy you draw is the vanilla one and it's effect come into play once you draw it. For instance, you can't call to arms a Molten Giant if you are at 5 hp. 

Quote from Fierytear >>

Card text happens after drawing the card. It's a HS technicality. Unless you specifically enchant a card in your deck (eg keleseth) the copy you draw is the vanilla one and it's effect come into play once you draw it. For instance, you can't call to arms a Molten Giant if you are at 5 hp. 

 I THINK this is the wording we are all after.

So all card effects normally occur after drawing.  That is, cards in your deck have no special effects until they are drawn.  Once drawn, all effects are added in.  Thus a Molten is always 25 until drawn: then it's whatever mana it should be.

The exception are effects that effect 'the deck'.  If an effect causes "X cardss in the DECK to have Y effect" THEN the cards are altered.

So if I'm getting this right, if I had a 10 mana card that says "this card costs 1 mana" then in the deck it's 10 mana, but the second it's in my hand it's 1 mana.   Geist wouldn't affect it.

But if I had a card that says "All cards in your deck are now 1 mana" then all of the cards are now set to 1 mana.  Which means Geist can eat them.

Or to try to simplify it:

All cards start off at their default setting.

All CARD effects occur when drawn into the hand.

All DECK effects occur while the card is in the deck.

is that all correct?

I appreciate all the explanations and it does start to make sense to me - thank you

As for the Troll that appeared, I'm re-reading through, not sure who he is addressing or yelling at, given I never indicated what deck I was playing?  He for sure has animosity towards Druids though....oh well, ignored

basically read it like this cards resolve one by one, if there is a chain of effects you read and apply the whole effect of the first card that triggers, then the next card applies its whole effect, and then the next and so on, usually you cant interrupt in the middle of effects, the only ones that can interrupt effects  are cards that have "whenever" or "when" in the text, things like Wild Pyromancer Secretkeeper and Lightwarden, and they trigger in the order they were played.

Somewhat related : Also note that giants (and most probably Shirvallah, since it's basically the same effect) have their original non-discounted cost while on the board.
For example, if you try to use unstable evolution on a Sea Giant, while having several minions on board (thus its cost reduced below 10), it will evolve in a 11-mana minion, because the reduction is not applied.

Thus, when baleful banker copies it, it copies a non-cost-reduced Shirvallah (since it keeps its full cost on board). And the cost reduction effect is then applied ONLY when Shirvallah is in your hand.

Thing that I would be interested in knowing : If the only spell you ever casted during a game was Luna's pocket galaxy, and Shirvllah was still in your deck, what's its cost when later drawn ? Is it 1 because the galaxy "erases" the normal discount, or 0 because it's 1 - 7 (galaxy's effect then discount), or is it 18 if the discount erases galaxy's effect ? Same question with a lucky Academic espionage.

Quote from Nanaki404 >>

Somewhat related : Also note that giants (and most probably Shirvallah, since it's basically the same effect) have their original non-discounted cost while on the board.
For example, if you try to use unstable evolution on a Sea Giant, while having several minions on board (thus its cost reduced below 10), it will evolve in a 11-mana minion, because the reduction is not applied.

Thus, when baleful banker copies it, it copies a non-cost-reduced Shirvallah (since it keeps its full cost on board). And the cost reduction effect is then applied ONLY when Shirvallah is in your hand.

Thing that I would be interested in knowing : If the only spell you ever casted during a game was Luna's pocket galaxy, and Shirvllah was still in your deck, what's its cost when later drawn ? Is it 1 because the galaxy "erases" the normal discount, or 0 because it's 1 - 7 (galaxy's effect then discount), or is it 18 if the discount erases galaxy's effect ? Same question with a lucky Academic espionage.

Luna's Pocket Galaxy makes Shirvallah, the Tiger cost 1 mana. Then, when you draw Shirvallah, the reduction is applied since it is an effect on the card, coming into action when you have it in hand. So Shirvallah costs 0 mana.

More interesting would be how Barnabus the Stomper intereacts with pocket galaxy. I'd guess the last card played overwrites the effect of the first one, but I don't know...

Maybe take it to the coding level.

There cards have no specific order while they're in your deck. On every draw a random value is generated and dependending on this value you draw one card. Thus while in your deck the cards have the default value which than take your question to the trigger level.

What triggers first, the Shirvallah, the Tiger text or the Holy Wrath text? Since you played Holy Wrath first it's position in the queue is higher which means it triggers before Shirvallah, the Tiger.

Imagine it like this: Shirvallahs text works only when she is in your hand.