Odd Hunter is aggro sure - but doesn`t look strong at all for me at the moment.
Zoo is no "real" aggro deck - at least what I understand what "aggro" determines. Just compare the Zoolock from today with the decks I listed. Zoo is an offensive Deck for sure, but in my eyes clearly a tempo and not an real aggro deck.
Blizzard should make a special stream lessons or youtube videos in which they explain the the only way hs should be played is with supa dupa 1000 IQ control/combo homebrewed decks and 30 minutes long match is a minimum time period that proves you're not braindead blah blah something etc.
If no aggro decks exist then what would you call murlock mage and odd paladin?
Those decks don't win on turns 4/5 like face hunter/pirate warrior used to.
Murloc mage doesn't win on turn 4/5? Are you serious? I've certainly lost a couple games that quickly to murloc mage.
Murloc mage is a classic Burn mage archetype and is very much aggro in style. It has no staying power and focuses on first trying to go for an early push with murlocs and when that fails it tries to burn the rest of your health away with spells.
Let's not play cute: it's aggro. Even face decks like hunter DID go past turn 4 and had Final Plans for those situations, mostly in burn from the hand. It doesn't WANT to, and it's a desperation play in essence, but it's what aggro does whether it's pure face like face hunter or a slightly more trady version like early zoo warlock.
Odd Paladin, though, is NOT aggro in the slightest. you are NOT going to die by 1/1s by turn 4, even slightly buffed, unless you have deck that does NOTHING for 4 turns and no mass removal or recovery. Which there's a few decks that do exactly that.
Odd pala odd hunter odd rogue and zoo are true aggro decks. Idk what you mean when you say they are out of the meta
Aggro attempts to kill you from turn 1 and typically does so by turn 4 unless something goes wrong. If something goes wrong it has to struggle just to find the final damage. If you recover you win.
Then there's Tempo decks. Tempo decks CAN kill you early, but if it doesn't, it just keep pushign until late game.
A good way to think of it is this:
Let's say it's turn 6. No one had a BAD hand or a GOD hand.. both are pretty average. The board is empty. Both players have cards.. say 5 of them.
You have a card that says "6 mana, your hero recovers to full health." You cast it, then and pass. What would the deck in question do?
-If you were nearly dead at turn 6 and just recovered, and the opponent concedes because there's NO WAY they can win they are aggro.
-If you were at risk of dying all game, cast that, but the opponent mocks your lack of board turn 6 and punishes you with yet ANOTHER offensive then they are Tempo..
-If you were almost full health with little risk of dying, but your opponent then mocks you and starts an offensive that slaughters you from here, it's Midrange.
-If your opponent wonders why you wasted 6 mana for nothing and play continues as normal, it's control.
-If your opponent wonders why you wasted your time then draws their entire deck OR if they just kill you next turn from full health, they are probably Combo.
That's GENERALLY the idea, especially on the 'tempo vs aggro' bit.
Murloc Mage would concede. Turn 6 empy board means you wiped their murlocs. 20 health means you just pushed above their remaining burn cards. They lost.
Odd Paladin would just dump more 1/1s on the board, happy that you gave them a free turn and more than able to wipe out another 20 health.
Deathrattle Hunter would breath a sigh of relief since 'turn 6 empty board' means they didn't get their egg ready and were afraid you were about to kill THEM. They will be DKing or getting to turn 8 where they can start dropping big beasts and deathrattle tricks.
Odd Warrior would probably just hero power and pass.
Shudderwock Shaman would pass or, more likely, try to draw cards.
For the record, Odd Rogue is a little messy as technically they COULD just keep pressure, but they WOULD be scared if they aren't pressuring you at turn 6 and you're at full health. It means Unstable won't bring enough burn. They CAN keep pressuring if they have to but it's a hard push. Note that Zoo Warlock is in the same board. We tended to view Zoo Warlock as sort of a slow aggro. They are an aggro deck with a bit more staying power, but, especially the current incarnation, they are rather dependent on that early push..
And while we are on it can we get ride of the Current Aggros in this meta ?
I really really hope they will disappear for ever it might be selfish but it’s really the best thing for this meta .
A meta without theese tempo deckt you call "aggro"? What do you want the meta should look like? A bunch of Combo-Decks and an Anti-Combo-Warlock-deck? Sounds fun to me. Kappa
Blizzard should make a special stream lessons or youtube videos in which they explain the the only way hs should be played is with supa dupa 1000 IQ control/combo homebrewed decks and 30 minutes long match is a minimum time period that proves you're not braindead blah blah something etc.
Yes i remember, fuck those days, they're gone and i hope they don't come back, aggro nowadays is the ideal balance for aggro decks, they can win, you can climb with them but they don't kill you before you get to play any card, and youa ren't pidgeonholed into aggro just because there aren't good control decks.
There are still very fast aggro decks around. Have you never encountered an odd paladin, murloc mage, or zoolock before?
I also find it funny that I remember the different reigns of Tunnel Trogg/Totem Golem/Flamewreathed Faceless aggro shaman, MSoG pirate warrior and Barnes (turn 4 Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound) Spell Hunter as being oppressive and incredibly un-interactive and anti-fun. I also remember how during all of these periods seemingly the entire community complained of the non-viability of control decks and complained endlessly that Blizzard never supported control archetypes because they wanted to keep their simple, mindless aggro playerbase happy, etc.
It just goes to show that people will always say that the grass on the other side is greener and will complain regardless of the situation.
There are still very fast aggro decks around. Have you never encountered an odd paladin, murloc mage, or zoolock before?
I also find it funny that I remember the different reigns of Tunnel Trogg/Totem Golem/Flamewreathed Faceless aggro shaman, MSoG pirate warrior and Barnes (turn 4 Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound) Spell Hunter as being oppressive and incredibly un-interactive and anti-fun. I also remember how during all of these periods seemingly the entire community complained of the non-viability of control decks and complained endlessly that Blizzard never supported control archetypes because they wanted to keep their simple, mindless aggro playerbase happy, etc.
It just goes to show that people will always say that the grass on the other side is greener and will complain regardless of the situation.
i think it's a case of vocal majority vs majority, i mean i haven't seen a bunch of the old fellows that disliked and complained about aggro as much as me in a while, because the alst two expansions have been rather good for them, whereas this people that complain about control and lack of aggro now are pretty much new faces until you realize they have a 2+ years subscription tag
Oh you mean the days when blizzard still thought taunt should have a mana tax?
Thanks, i almost managed to forget those days.
Taunt still has a "mana tax". Why wouldn't it? Are you suggesting that taunt adds nothing to the worth of a card? Taunts still and will continue to be slightly understatted compared with baseline vanilla stats. The general formula for baseline vanilla stats is 2n+1, where "n" = cost of the card. For example at 3 mana you expect a vanilla/textless card to have (2x3)+1 = 7 total stats, such as a 3 mana 3/4.
Even looking at Boomsday, the most recent set, the most vanilla taunt minion I could think of was Bronze Gatekeeper. Even though this has more value than a vanilla card because it has magnetic, it still only has 6 total stats, whereas you would expect a textless minion (so without taunt) to have 7 total stats.
I think some things should be more balanced,Like yeah I like aggro decks but give the game more variation,So that its a bit more of a chance to play another deck without losing because your strategy was in the last 10 cards hehe
IMO, the Arcane Golem nerf doesn't get the credit it deserves for the death of these style decks. That was a huge change.
Aggro could have survived the other nerfs, like Abusive Sergeant and Leper Gnome. But not the Arcane Golem nerf. (And I'm not sure whether they would have survived the onset of Tar Creeper and its ilk.)
Odd pala odd hunter odd rogue and zoo are true aggro decks. Idk what you mean when you say they are out of the meta
Aggro attempts to kill you from turn 1 and typically does so by turn 4 unless something goes wrong. If something goes wrong it has to struggle just to find the final damage. If you recover you win.
Then there's Tempo decks. Tempo decks CAN kill you early, but if it doesn't, it just keep pushign until late game.
A good way to think of it is this:
Let's say it's turn 6. No one had a BAD hand or a GOD hand.. both are pretty average. The board is empty. Both players have cards.. say 5 of them.
You have a card that says "6 mana, your hero recovers to full health." You cast it, then and pass. What would the deck in question do?
-If you were nearly dead at turn 6 and just recovered, and the opponent concedes because there's NO WAY they can win they are aggro.
-If you were at risk of dying all game, cast that, but the opponent mocks your lack of board turn 6 and punishes you with yet ANOTHER offensive then they are Tempo..
-If you were almost full health with little risk of dying, but your opponent then mocks you and starts an offensive that slaughters you from here, it's Midrange.
-If your opponent wonders why you wasted 6 mana for nothing and play continues as normal, it's control.
-If your opponent wonders why you wasted your time then draws their entire deck OR if they just kill you next turn from full health, they are probably Combo.
That's GENERALLY the idea, especially on the 'tempo vs aggro' bit.
Murloc Mage would concede. Turn 6 empy board means you wiped their murlocs. 20 health means you just pushed above their remaining burn cards. They lost.
Odd Paladin would just dump more 1/1s on the board, happy that you gave them a free turn and more than able to wipe out another 20 health.
Deathrattle Hunter would breath a sigh of relief since 'turn 6 empty board' means they didn't get their egg ready and were afraid you were about to kill THEM. They will be DKing or getting to turn 8 where they can start dropping big beasts and deathrattle tricks.
Odd Warrior would probably just hero power and pass.
Shudderwock Shaman would pass or, more likely, try to draw cards.
For the record, Odd Rogue is a little messy as technically they COULD just keep pressure, but they WOULD be scared if they aren't pressuring you at turn 6 and you're at full health. It means Unstable won't bring enough burn. They CAN keep pressuring if they have to but it's a hard push. Note that Zoo Warlock is in the same board. We tended to view Zoo Warlock as sort of a slow aggro. They are an aggro deck with a bit more staying power, but, especially the current incarnation, they are rather dependent on that early push..
Nice, pretty accurate! There is absolutely blur between tempo and aggro. I played a fair bit of odd rogue lately, and especially in Wild, where Fungalmancer is cut, the deck is right in between. On turn 6, it could still drop 2x Hench-Clan Thug, swing face with the dagger and follow it up with Dr. Boom, but most of the time, the game would be over.
Zoo is also an interresting case, and imo, there have been both aggro, tempo and midrange zoo decks, depending on the curve and burst potential. A good zooplayer would have a board refill ready for the mentioned turn 6 situation.
For tempo vs midrange, I like to think that midrange is about playing the biggest possible proactive minion on curve, while tempo decks focus more on accurate removal+snowball plays with small hand sizes or dedicated tribe synergies. Flamewaker mage and odd/dude paladin are typical tempo decks, while Dragon Priest, secret paladin and C'Thun druid were typical midrange decks.
Modern HS players don't have a good understanding of aggro decks vs aggressive strategies.
A good example is Odd Rogue. Odd Rogue is an aggressive tempo deck, but it is not an aggro deck that seeks to kill you with wide boards of 1-3 mana cost minions.
Modern HS players don't have a good understanding of aggro decks vs aggressive strategies.
A good example is Odd Rogue. Odd Rogue is an aggressive tempo deck, but it is not an aggro deck that seeks to kill you with wide boards of 1-3 mana cost minions.
Terminology REALLY doesn't help with that issue though.
Firstly we have 'Aggressive' which bsically means when you are pushing for the win, which nearly every deck outside of fatigue and some combo decks do at some point.
Then we have "The aggressive deck' which is the concept that in EVERY SINGLE GAME there is someone who's on offensive and someone on defense. Even if you put two fatigue decks together SOMEONE is the aggressor and someone the 'control' or defense deck.
THEN we have 'aggro deck' which are decks designed around pushing hard for the win as aggressively as possible. Basically a deck who's pretty much always the 'aggressor' and who starts their 'aggressive phase' from turn 1.
On top of ALL of that, a lot of people, especially folks who view aggro negatively, love playing slow control decks. Which means every deck outside of fatigue decks will be the 'aggressor deck' compared to them. This is why some people will scream that Deathrattle Hunter or Spiteful decks are Aggro: because compared to their Mecha'thun warrior deck they always seem like they are going face.
On top of ALL of that, we have Tempo decks which, by how it sounds, would be considered 'midrange' decks in MTG-land: decks that try to outrace slower decks and out value fast decks. But we call them Tempo since they do this by grabbing tempo turn 1 and never, EVER letting go of it. But this means when the above greedy control player plays against them, the Tempo deck always seeks to end the game quickly since Tempo's goal is to win when you are weak and that means attacking in the early game.
It would be so much easier just to call them 'slow aggro' decks. But it would be heavily inaccurate and cause more confusion in the long run.
Modern HS players don't have a good understanding of aggro decks vs aggressive strategies.
A good example is Odd Rogue. Odd Rogue is an aggressive tempo deck, but it is not an aggro deck that seeks to kill you with wide boards of 1-3 mana cost minions.
I kinda see odd rogue the same way I see pirate warrior.
This is just as much Aggro, as the current existing Aggro decks are.
These just list under the "Face" category of Aggro decks. Just like "Fatique" is a category of Control decks.
I want a new title, but Flux won't let me have one,
Odd Hunter is aggro sure - but doesn`t look strong at all for me at the moment.
Zoo is no "real" aggro deck - at least what I understand what "aggro" determines. Just compare the Zoolock from today with the decks I listed. Zoo is an offensive Deck for sure, but in my eyes clearly a tempo and not an real aggro deck.
Murloc mage is a classic Burn mage archetype and is very much aggro in style. It has no staying power and focuses on first trying to go for an early push with murlocs and when that fails it tries to burn the rest of your health away with spells.
Let's not play cute: it's aggro. Even face decks like hunter DID go past turn 4 and had Final Plans for those situations, mostly in burn from the hand. It doesn't WANT to, and it's a desperation play in essence, but it's what aggro does whether it's pure face like face hunter or a slightly more trady version like early zoo warlock.
Odd Paladin, though, is NOT aggro in the slightest. you are NOT going to die by 1/1s by turn 4, even slightly buffed, unless you have deck that does NOTHING for 4 turns and no mass removal or recovery. Which there's a few decks that do exactly that.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
I don't know what is worse actually, face hunter or big priest.
Yeah, and I sure as fuck don't miss them.
Odd pala odd hunter odd rogue and zoo are true aggro decks. Idk what you mean when you say they are out of the meta
Aggro attempts to kill you from turn 1 and typically does so by turn 4 unless something goes wrong. If something goes wrong it has to struggle just to find the final damage. If you recover you win.
Then there's Tempo decks. Tempo decks CAN kill you early, but if it doesn't, it just keep pushign until late game.
A good way to think of it is this:
Let's say it's turn 6. No one had a BAD hand or a GOD hand.. both are pretty average. The board is empty. Both players have cards.. say 5 of them.
You have a card that says "6 mana, your hero recovers to full health." You cast it, then and pass. What would the deck in question do?
-If you were nearly dead at turn 6 and just recovered, and the opponent concedes because there's NO WAY they can win they are aggro.
-If you were at risk of dying all game, cast that, but the opponent mocks your lack of board turn 6 and punishes you with yet ANOTHER offensive then they are Tempo..
-If you were almost full health with little risk of dying, but your opponent then mocks you and starts an offensive that slaughters you from here, it's Midrange.
-If your opponent wonders why you wasted 6 mana for nothing and play continues as normal, it's control.
-If your opponent wonders why you wasted your time then draws their entire deck OR if they just kill you next turn from full health, they are probably Combo.
That's GENERALLY the idea, especially on the 'tempo vs aggro' bit.
Murloc Mage would concede. Turn 6 empy board means you wiped their murlocs. 20 health means you just pushed above their remaining burn cards. They lost.
Odd Paladin would just dump more 1/1s on the board, happy that you gave them a free turn and more than able to wipe out another 20 health.
Deathrattle Hunter would breath a sigh of relief since 'turn 6 empty board' means they didn't get their egg ready and were afraid you were about to kill THEM. They will be DKing or getting to turn 8 where they can start dropping big beasts and deathrattle tricks.
Odd Warrior would probably just hero power and pass.
Shudderwock Shaman would pass or, more likely, try to draw cards.
For the record, Odd Rogue is a little messy as technically they COULD just keep pressure, but they WOULD be scared if they aren't pressuring you at turn 6 and you're at full health. It means Unstable won't bring enough burn. They CAN keep pressuring if they have to but it's a hard push. Note that Zoo Warlock is in the same board. We tended to view Zoo Warlock as sort of a slow aggro. They are an aggro deck with a bit more staying power, but, especially the current incarnation, they are rather dependent on that early push..
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
A meta without theese tempo deckt you call "aggro"? What do you want the meta should look like? A bunch of Combo-Decks and an Anti-Combo-Warlock-deck? Sounds fun to me. Kappa
Yes i remember, fuck those days, they're gone and i hope they don't come back, aggro nowadays is the ideal balance for aggro decks, they can win, you can climb with them but they don't kill you before you get to play any card, and youa ren't pidgeonholed into aggro just because there aren't good control decks.
There are still very fast aggro decks around. Have you never encountered an odd paladin, murloc mage, or zoolock before?
I also find it funny that I remember the different reigns of Tunnel Trogg/Totem Golem/Flamewreathed Faceless aggro shaman, MSoG pirate warrior and Barnes (turn 4 Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound) Spell Hunter as being oppressive and incredibly un-interactive and anti-fun. I also remember how during all of these periods seemingly the entire community complained of the non-viability of control decks and complained endlessly that Blizzard never supported control archetypes because they wanted to keep their simple, mindless aggro playerbase happy, etc.
It just goes to show that people will always say that the grass on the other side is greener and will complain regardless of the situation.
i think it's a case of vocal majority vs majority, i mean i haven't seen a bunch of the old fellows that disliked and complained about aggro as much as me in a while, because the alst two expansions have been rather good for them, whereas this people that complain about control and lack of aggro now are pretty much new faces until you realize they have a 2+ years subscription tag
Taunt still has a "mana tax". Why wouldn't it? Are you suggesting that taunt adds nothing to the worth of a card? Taunts still and will continue to be slightly understatted compared with baseline vanilla stats. The general formula for baseline vanilla stats is 2n+1, where "n" = cost of the card. For example at 3 mana you expect a vanilla/textless card to have (2x3)+1 = 7 total stats, such as a 3 mana 3/4.
Even looking at Boomsday, the most recent set, the most vanilla taunt minion I could think of was Bronze Gatekeeper. Even though this has more value than a vanilla card because it has magnetic, it still only has 6 total stats, whereas you would expect a textless minion (so without taunt) to have 7 total stats.
BRING OUT YOUR DEAD
I think some things should be more balanced,Like yeah I like aggro decks but give the game more variation,So that its a bit more of a chance to play another deck without losing because your strategy was in the last 10 cards hehe
IMO, the Arcane Golem nerf doesn't get the credit it deserves for the death of these style decks. That was a huge change.
Aggro could have survived the other nerfs, like Abusive Sergeant and Leper Gnome. But not the Arcane Golem nerf. (And I'm not sure whether they would have survived the onset of Tar Creeper and its ilk.)
Nice, pretty accurate! There is absolutely blur between tempo and aggro. I played a fair bit of odd rogue lately, and especially in Wild, where Fungalmancer is cut, the deck is right in between. On turn 6, it could still drop 2x Hench-Clan Thug, swing face with the dagger and follow it up with Dr. Boom, but most of the time, the game would be over.
Zoo is also an interresting case, and imo, there have been both aggro, tempo and midrange zoo decks, depending on the curve and burst potential. A good zooplayer would have a board refill ready for the mentioned turn 6 situation.
For tempo vs midrange, I like to think that midrange is about playing the biggest possible proactive minion on curve, while tempo decks focus more on accurate removal+snowball plays with small hand sizes or dedicated tribe synergies. Flamewaker mage and odd/dude paladin are typical tempo decks, while Dragon Priest, secret paladin and C'Thun druid were typical midrange decks.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
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Modern HS players don't have a good understanding of aggro decks vs aggressive strategies.
A good example is Odd Rogue. Odd Rogue is an aggressive tempo deck, but it is not an aggro deck that seeks to kill you with wide boards of 1-3 mana cost minions.
Terminology REALLY doesn't help with that issue though.
Firstly we have 'Aggressive' which bsically means when you are pushing for the win, which nearly every deck outside of fatigue and some combo decks do at some point.
Then we have "The aggressive deck' which is the concept that in EVERY SINGLE GAME there is someone who's on offensive and someone on defense. Even if you put two fatigue decks together SOMEONE is the aggressor and someone the 'control' or defense deck.
THEN we have 'aggro deck' which are decks designed around pushing hard for the win as aggressively as possible. Basically a deck who's pretty much always the 'aggressor' and who starts their 'aggressive phase' from turn 1.
On top of ALL of that, a lot of people, especially folks who view aggro negatively, love playing slow control decks. Which means every deck outside of fatigue decks will be the 'aggressor deck' compared to them. This is why some people will scream that Deathrattle Hunter or Spiteful decks are Aggro: because compared to their Mecha'thun warrior deck they always seem like they are going face.
On top of ALL of that, we have Tempo decks which, by how it sounds, would be considered 'midrange' decks in MTG-land: decks that try to outrace slower decks and out value fast decks. But we call them Tempo since they do this by grabbing tempo turn 1 and never, EVER letting go of it. But this means when the above greedy control player plays against them, the Tempo deck always seeks to end the game quickly since Tempo's goal is to win when you are weak and that means attacking in the early game.
It would be so much easier just to call them 'slow aggro' decks. But it would be heavily inaccurate and cause more confusion in the long run.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
I kinda see odd rogue the same way I see pirate warrior.
If they hit windfury on a megasaur and you haven't taken out a murloc yet, you're toast.