And the weirdest part is you get both sides of the spectrum with people arguing that either it's completely useless and trash or that warriors will become dumpster tier because this card will be too good.
It's both. Secret tech is a perfect example of this.
For most games, anti-secret cards like Eater of Secrets or Flare are BAD. as in "games have been lost purely because you put it in your deck" bad. Then for games where it does matter, it becomes the one card that auto-wins the game. For example, there was a point when we just started figuring out how to get Freeze Mage to work thanks to Ice Block, so it started showing up in tournaments. It had good matchups and bad matchups and generally fit in with the crowd.
Then Hunter realized it had 0 mana Flare and started adding it in. Suddenly Freeze mage became a bad deck to bring to tournaments PURELY because Hunters will just kill you by flaring your ice block right before the finish.
And that's the point. Hate cards are VERY polarizing, especially when the card they are hating ruins the entire deck. The cards HAVE to be 'bad' normally or else they become auto-include just in case. But then making them bad means you get the "you lose/win depending on what deck they play." And didn't we just spend the past 3 months screaming, RAGING at how boring the highly polarized Boomsday meta is?
And now we want to add armor killing cards that punishes warriors and druids for using their hero power.
CAN there EVER be some card that takes advantage of the opponent having armor? I guess, but it'll have to be VERY elegant and careful. So far I haven't seen such a card and instead see things like 'destroy all armor' or 'do double damage'. So long as the conversation of what cards we need center around this mentality, it remains a highly polarized card that is worthless for most matches while also making Warrior and Druid bad classes to play should the card be actually viable (and if not then it's just pack filler with no purpose).
The big problems aren't that we need armor tech, is that warrior's tank up and druid's branching paths are too polarizing. Last year no one was complaining and wanting armor removal tech, so what changed?
Oh people have been asking for armor removal for a LONG time, which is why a LOT of older folks auto reject such things. It's not at the level as 'nerf the coin!' but it's been close.
There hasn't been any EXCESS demand for armor removal: this thread shows up every once in a while as it is and gets as much flak. There's been complaints about druid and warrior, but as you mention the issue isn't in the lack of tech but the problems with druid's armor gain and Odd Warrior being so aggro busting.
At the most, I could see a minion tech that's something like "This minion does double damage to armor". Or maybe, just maybe, a battlecry that halves the opponent's armor (though that would be too situational and honestly, probably not played).
Not sure why people hate armor so much. Also, such a huge tech would just ruin their new hopes for this healadin lol.
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Twitch name: Anatak15 NA Legend Season 48, 49, 52, 53, 54, 74
I propose new keyword Armor-Piercing. That means that it deals double damage to Armor. (For example if You have 3/5 Armor-Piercing Minion and opponent Has 30 health and 2 Armor, after its attack Opponent's hero will have 28 health, If Enemy had 30hp and 6 armor — he'll stand at 30hp, if 5 armor = 6)
You can bet on no armor hate cards getting printed when they just spoiled that paladin legendary today that converts all but 1 of your health to armor to try to make healadin a thing. We have a way to get rid of armor, it's called dealing damage. Armor is good against some types of decks and mediocre against others. There is no reason to print hate cards for armor when every minion with attacking capabilities can remove armor as well as spells.
Patch 1.0.0.4217 (2013-12-10): Alexstrasza’s ability no longer counts as a healing effect when raising the target’s health to 15 and will not affect Armor when lowering health to 15.
Once upon a time Alexstraza was removing armor. Then then nerfed it.
They could add a legendary dragon that halves the armor kind of like Alex set a players health to 15, but completly removing a full armor stack is too much. In a way Damage spells and minion attacks remove armor xD
You can bet on no armor hate cards getting printed when they just spoiled that paladin legendary today that converts all but 1 of your health to armor to try to make healadin a thing. We have a way to get rid of armor, it's called dealing damage. Armor is good against some types of decks and mediocre against others. There is no reason to print hate cards for armor when every minion with attacking capabilities can remove armor as well as spells.
I would take that bet. Armor and health is not generally symmetrical because there is a finite health and infinite armor ceiling. Frostbolt deals 10% of max player health. It usually deals a much higher percentage to armor, unless armor gain is the primary deck strategy. In that case, damage is not a symmetric answer, so I think it opens up design space to discuss armor counters.
Armor REMOVAL tech is a horrible idea. Armor gain is priced at about the same amount as health gain, it would be a gigantic paradigm shift to suddenly make it easy to remove armor from characters, that would likely lead to the complete downfall of control (and would make the new paladin legendary look pretty miserable).
As others have suggested, a card that scaled in power with your opponent's armor would be fine, but any tech specifically to remove armor would have to be comparable in power to direct damage spells. For instance, 3 mana: deal 5 damage to the opposing hero, deal 3 additional damage if they have armor.
Except countering armor is already a thing in HS, it's called attacking their face with minions or direct damage spells. No need to push aggro further with some tech card that obliterates armor like it's nothing. I remember when hearthstone didn't have good healing/armor gain effects, it wasn't pretty.
Alexstrasza being nerfed so it doesn't remove armor fits with the ability of the card. Then again alexstrasza should be hall of famed anyways for enabling too many OTK's.
Except countering armor is already a thing in HS, it's called attacking their face with minions or direct damage spells. No need to push aggro further with some tech card that obliterates armor like it's nothing. I remember when hearthstone didn't have good healing/armor gain effects, it wasn't pretty.
Alexstrasza being nerfed so it doesn't remove armor fits with the ability of the card. Then again alexstrasza should be hall of famed anyways for enabling too many OTK's.
Alex is extremely balanced giving the amount of life gain in the game.
Thank God this game is not designed by random newbs.
So reading these replies has me wanting to chime in my two cents, so here I go.
Blizzard has had no problem printing hate cards in the past. As people have stated, Eater of Secrets was printed to counter secret decks. Another example would be Scarlet Purifier, printer to tech against the overwhelming number of deathrattles after Naxx. And what i think is the best example, Skulking Geist to tech against Jade Druid. Theres also Hungry Crab for murlocs, Golakka Crawler for pirates, y'all get the gist of things. Blizzard has no problem printing tech cards to counter specific decks/archetypes, but only when they are polarizing. Right now, unless you are playing aggro, the classes that with the most armor gain, Warrior and Druid, are okay to deal with. Mage sometimes gets some big armor gains with Arcane Artificer, but that doesnt always happen. We will need to see what paladin can do. Other classs CAN gain significant amounts of armor, but only in very, VERY fringe decks and cases (Armor Hunter, Danes ShuZoth Meme Shaman, Raptor Rogue, etc) but those decks are jokes for the most part.
But as people have stated, the main problem is Druid. Odd warrior can be beaten by tempo decks if you run plenty of sticky minions (I.e. deathrattle, divine shield). My main problem is druid. Being a primarily wild player, most of the druids I play against are combo decks. If you want to break hearthstone down to its most basic level, it performs like rock paper scissors in a way. Aggro fares well against combo decks, combo decks fare well against control decks, and control decks fare well against aggro. Midrange decks are... Well, somewhere. Now that is way oversimplifying it, i know. Freeze mage decks were so good because they were a combo deck that performed exceptionally against aggro decks via freeze effects and Ice Block. Now, the combo decks in druid are faring the same against aggro. Your card draw also increases your survivability against the matchups you would struggle against normally by gaining you armor via cards like Branching Paths, Ferocious Howl, and Ultimate Infestation. This means that unless you get really lucky, the druids are going to perform well against both control AND aggro, polarizing the meta in favor of those decks. Look at what Star Aligner Druid did to the wild meta.
But regardless of all that. Am I in favor of removing all of a players armor? No way. But I am in favor of a card, like people have mentioned, with some kind of piercing effect. Would it see play? Depends on the stats. It would need to be decent enough to stand against decks that do not gain stupid amounts of armor. That would make those decks less viable, but still playable. Then the only problem would be Taunt Druid. We just need some kind of aggro priest for that... But to answer the OPs current topic, no idea why people hate anti-armor tech as a concept in general.
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These topics are SO dumb like get real armor is not a problem stop trying to make it an issue
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you just cant remove all their armor.
armor is the exact same as health. and you should not be able to do 30 damage in one turn for 5 mana. even if that is excess health.
some decks (such as warrior) spend so much resources into armor. and then in 1 card they lose a ton of life is not fun.
and then if you are not fighting vs a warrior than the card just sucks. it is either way waaaaay to op, or it is just useless.
i have no idea why you make such a big deal about it.
Rejoice, for even in death, you have become children of Thanos.
It's both. Secret tech is a perfect example of this.
For most games, anti-secret cards like Eater of Secrets or Flare are BAD. as in "games have been lost purely because you put it in your deck" bad. Then for games where it does matter, it becomes the one card that auto-wins the game. For example, there was a point when we just started figuring out how to get Freeze Mage to work thanks to Ice Block, so it started showing up in tournaments. It had good matchups and bad matchups and generally fit in with the crowd.
Then Hunter realized it had 0 mana Flare and started adding it in. Suddenly Freeze mage became a bad deck to bring to tournaments PURELY because Hunters will just kill you by flaring your ice block right before the finish.
And that's the point. Hate cards are VERY polarizing, especially when the card they are hating ruins the entire deck. The cards HAVE to be 'bad' normally or else they become auto-include just in case. But then making them bad means you get the "you lose/win depending on what deck they play." And didn't we just spend the past 3 months screaming, RAGING at how boring the highly polarized Boomsday meta is?
And now we want to add armor killing cards that punishes warriors and druids for using their hero power.
CAN there EVER be some card that takes advantage of the opponent having armor? I guess, but it'll have to be VERY elegant and careful. So far I haven't seen such a card and instead see things like 'destroy all armor' or 'do double damage'. So long as the conversation of what cards we need center around this mentality, it remains a highly polarized card that is worthless for most matches while also making Warrior and Druid bad classes to play should the card be actually viable (and if not then it's just pack filler with no purpose).
Oh people have been asking for armor removal for a LONG time, which is why a LOT of older folks auto reject such things. It's not at the level as 'nerf the coin!' but it's been close.
There hasn't been any EXCESS demand for armor removal: this thread shows up every once in a while as it is and gets as much flak. There's been complaints about druid and warrior, but as you mention the issue isn't in the lack of tech but the problems with druid's armor gain and Odd Warrior being so aggro busting.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
How about something like
Shifty Arms Dealer: At the end of your turn, steal half your opponent's armor.
I think there is some grey area where a counter can be designed without destroying the armor-up strategy outright.
It's like Eater of Secrets: everybody wanted such a tech, nobody ended up using it consistently in their decks (even when Secrets are top tier).
Moreover, damage is the ideal armor removal, as others pointed out.
If anything, armor and healing bursts should not be accessible in early turns, but that's it...
At the most, I could see a minion tech that's something like "This minion does double damage to armor". Or maybe, just maybe, a battlecry that halves the opponent's armor (though that would be too situational and honestly, probably not played).
Not sure why people hate armor so much. Also, such a huge tech would just ruin their new hopes for this healadin lol.
Twitch name: Anatak15
NA Legend Season 48, 49, 52, 53, 54, 74
I propose new keyword Armor-Piercing. That means that it deals double damage to Armor.
(For example if You have 3/5 Armor-Piercing Minion and opponent Has 30 health and 2 Armor, after its attack Opponent's hero will have 28 health, If Enemy had 30hp and 6 armor — he'll stand at 30hp, if 5 armor = 6)
If such a card were to exist, it'd probably be a minion with "destroy any armor damaged by this."
You can bet on no armor hate cards getting printed when they just spoiled that paladin legendary today that converts all but 1 of your health to armor to try to make healadin a thing. We have a way to get rid of armor, it's called dealing damage. Armor is good against some types of decks and mediocre against others. There is no reason to print hate cards for armor when every minion with attacking capabilities can remove armor as well as spells.
I thought this thread was going to be about the hanky panky going on between Katrina and King Krush. So disappointed.
Once upon a time Alexstraza was removing armor. Then then nerfed it.
They could add a legendary dragon that halves the armor kind of like Alex set a players health to 15, but completly removing a full armor stack is too much. In a way Damage spells and minion attacks remove armor xD
I would take that bet. Armor and health is not generally symmetrical because there is a finite health and infinite armor ceiling. Frostbolt deals 10% of max player health. It usually deals a much higher percentage to armor, unless armor gain is the primary deck strategy. In that case, damage is not a symmetric answer, so I think it opens up design space to discuss armor counters.
Armor REMOVAL tech is a horrible idea. Armor gain is priced at about the same amount as health gain, it would be a gigantic paradigm shift to suddenly make it easy to remove armor from characters, that would likely lead to the complete downfall of control (and would make the new paladin legendary look pretty miserable).
As others have suggested, a card that scaled in power with your opponent's armor would be fine, but any tech specifically to remove armor would have to be comparable in power to direct damage spells. For instance, 3 mana: deal 5 damage to the opposing hero, deal 3 additional damage if they have armor.
What about this..
'Crush' or another similar keyword. Which causes a minions damage to do double damage if it's going into armor instead of flesh.
Lets say a 3 cost 3/3 with Crush would do 6 damage if attacking into armor and only 3 if flesh.
Rusty Recycler
Ironic. It could recycle others, but not itself.
Except countering armor is already a thing in HS, it's called attacking their face with minions or direct damage spells. No need to push aggro further with some tech card that obliterates armor like it's nothing. I remember when hearthstone didn't have good healing/armor gain effects, it wasn't pretty.
Alexstrasza being nerfed so it doesn't remove armor fits with the ability of the card. Then again alexstrasza should be hall of famed anyways for enabling too many OTK's.
Just make a 15 mana giant that costs 1 less per each armor opponent has.
Alex is extremely balanced giving the amount of life gain in the game.
Thank God this game is not designed by random newbs.
So reading these replies has me wanting to chime in my two cents, so here I go.
Blizzard has had no problem printing hate cards in the past. As people have stated, Eater of Secrets was printed to counter secret decks. Another example would be Scarlet Purifier, printer to tech against the overwhelming number of deathrattles after Naxx. And what i think is the best example, Skulking Geist to tech against Jade Druid. Theres also Hungry Crab for murlocs, Golakka Crawler for pirates, y'all get the gist of things. Blizzard has no problem printing tech cards to counter specific decks/archetypes, but only when they are polarizing. Right now, unless you are playing aggro, the classes that with the most armor gain, Warrior and Druid, are okay to deal with. Mage sometimes gets some big armor gains with Arcane Artificer, but that doesnt always happen. We will need to see what paladin can do. Other classs CAN gain significant amounts of armor, but only in very, VERY fringe decks and cases (Armor Hunter, Danes ShuZoth Meme Shaman, Raptor Rogue, etc) but those decks are jokes for the most part.
But as people have stated, the main problem is Druid. Odd warrior can be beaten by tempo decks if you run plenty of sticky minions (I.e. deathrattle, divine shield). My main problem is druid. Being a primarily wild player, most of the druids I play against are combo decks. If you want to break hearthstone down to its most basic level, it performs like rock paper scissors in a way. Aggro fares well against combo decks, combo decks fare well against control decks, and control decks fare well against aggro. Midrange decks are... Well, somewhere. Now that is way oversimplifying it, i know. Freeze mage decks were so good because they were a combo deck that performed exceptionally against aggro decks via freeze effects and Ice Block. Now, the combo decks in druid are faring the same against aggro. Your card draw also increases your survivability against the matchups you would struggle against normally by gaining you armor via cards like Branching Paths, Ferocious Howl, and Ultimate Infestation. This means that unless you get really lucky, the druids are going to perform well against both control AND aggro, polarizing the meta in favor of those decks. Look at what Star Aligner Druid did to the wild meta.
But regardless of all that. Am I in favor of removing all of a players armor? No way. But I am in favor of a card, like people have mentioned, with some kind of piercing effect. Would it see play? Depends on the stats. It would need to be decent enough to stand against decks that do not gain stupid amounts of armor. That would make those decks less viable, but still playable. Then the only problem would be Taunt Druid. We just need some kind of aggro priest for that... But to answer the OPs current topic, no idea why people hate anti-armor tech as a concept in general.