Hearthpwn

Giggling Inventor was a problem too, even bigger if you ask me, though still not big enough to just wipe out the card out of existence. Honestly, what archetype will play it now? It's worse than all the other options avaliable. Community's reaction on this is also well done, increase its cost to 6, so it actually has a proper cost and can be used. Blizzard's words "at 7 mana this card may ocasionally see play" are outright ridiculous, you don't play Deathwing just because there is a chance your opponent's board is too big. You look for consistency.

Since you have already read Blizzard's article, I think you should know why they nerfed it to 7 mana not 6 mana. They said AFTER testing GI at 6 mana, they think it's still too strong. I see no reason not to believe them, considering they were against ANY nerfs few weeks ago.

Also you are speaking out of pure speculation, you have NO data to support your claims while Blizzard have. 

I don't like any of the nerfs. Druid is left untouched, so they will reign supreme. Aggro/burn/tempo mage (whatever you wanna call it) was one of the few decks that could actually beat some druids consistently (I had like a 70+% win rate against them, personally).  Tempo mage now is pretty much unplayable in its current state, and quest rogue will take a huge hit (perhaps deservedly so).  Quest rogue also could beat most druids, especially the slower ones.

I just don't see how anything can consistently stop druid now.  They have too much armor gain, card draw, ramp, combo potential with no inherent weakness.  I just don't get it.

And also, in the post they mention they've tested Giggling Inventor at 6 mana with future cards, and they also mention how it was a decent card in Evolve Shaman.  I'm guessing Shaman is gonna get an op 4 mana evolve card, that might have been good before, but now will also remain unplayable haha.

Mana Wyrm nerf was a long time coming.  It probably feels like Tempo Mage was unfairly targeted because the community complains more about Druid these days, but this nerf to Wyrm was long overdue.  

Odd Rogue and (literally every) Druid both have bad matchups.  

Was tempo mage even a problem? Sure mana wyrm was really powerful when unchecked but thats about all tempo mage had going for it against a lot of more difficult matchups. Tempo mage was the one deck I could consistently rank up with and it might be done for. How was tempo mage any worse than baku rogue? Or zoolock? 

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

Mana Wyrm nerf was a long time coming.  It probably feels like Tempo Mage was unfairly targeted because the community complains more about Druid these days, but this nerf to Wyrm was long overdue.  

Odd Rogue and (literally every) Druid both have bad matchups.  

 Every deck has bad matchups.  Standard druid and rogue are in a far better spot than mage atm and remain untouched.

 What's your point?  Just because a deck is strong or a class has multiple strong decks doesn't mean it should be nerfed.  Mana Wyrm was nerfed for a very good reason, and not because "Blizzard hates Mages" or "Mage was Tier 0" or "Mage has zero bad matchups."

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

My point is standard druid and baku rogue needed nerfs more than any of these cards.  Granted giggling needed a nerf but 7 mana is ott.

 

VS largely disagrees.  You can disagree with me all you like on matter of principle (you don't like me, you think I'm a Blizzard fanboy, you just are being stubborn, IDK), but to disagree with VS is to disagree with facts and stats.  

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

Cold blood is a card that is long overdue being removed or nerfed.  You can turn any 1 drop into a heavily buffed mana wyrm on T2 and it's 1 of the main reasons baku rogue is as op as it is.

You also have far more 1 drops to put it on.  Mage needs to get wyrm t1 into some good spells for it to really shine.

 Cold Blood is a conditional superbuff, and if your plan is to play it on turn 2, you're either also playing a 1-drop, NOT playing a better 2-drop (and going somewhat all in on your first 1-drop), and wasting it when you could be saving it for Leeroy burst later on.  The only minion I'm annoyed at seeing Cold Blood played on is Argent Squire.  Anything else is a giant waste of Cold Blood unless it's to create a favorable trade and protect a bigger minion. 

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

Stupid nerfs.  This hearthstone dev team really are clueless.  Giggling is now dead.  6 mana would be reasonable.  7 is unplayable.

Mana wyrm nerf?  Since when is tempo mage a top tier deck?  Yes it's always been 1 of the best 1 drops in the game but I don't think it needed a nerf.

Avianna did not need a nerf either.  There's a little card called dirty rat in wild that ruins combos like that.

Meanwhile the best aggro deck in the game by a long way get's a free pass.  Baku rogue.  Cold blood remains in standard unnerfed and the other broken 5 drop remains unnerfed.  Fungalmancer.  What a joke.

Very close to quitting this mess of a game for good. 

Also stanadrd druid still remains unnerfed?  Are you F**ing kidding me?

 Can't do 6 mana because of Even Warlock. The 7 mana was to prevent it from being played in Even decks that can abuse it.

Quote from C_A_W >>

Giggling Inventor was a problem too, even bigger if you ask me, though still not big enough to just wipe out the card out of existence. Honestly, what archetype will play it now? It's worse than all the other options avaliable. Community's reaction on this is also well done, increase its cost to 6, so it actually has a proper cost and can be used. Blizzard's words "at 7 mana this card may ocasionally see play" are outright ridiculous, you don't play Deathwing just because there is a chance your opponent's board is too big. You look for consistency.

Since you have already read Blizzard's article, I think you should know why they nerfed it to 7 mana not 6 mana. They said AFTER testing GI at 6 mana, they think it's still too strong. I see no reason not to believe them, considering they were against ANY nerfs few weeks ago.

Also you are speaking out of pure speculation, you have NO data to support your claims while Blizzard have. 

 

 Also consider that at 6 mana it is basically the same power-level but could be played in Even decks (Even Warlock specifically). 

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

My point is standard druid and baku rogue needed nerfs more than any of these cards.  Granted giggling needed a nerf but 7 mana is ott.

 

VS largely disagrees.  You can disagree with me all you like on matter of principle (you don't like me, you think I'm a Blizzard fanboy, you just are being stubborn, IDK), but to disagree with VS is to disagree with facts and stats.  

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

Cold blood is a card that is long overdue being removed or nerfed.  You can turn any 1 drop into a heavily buffed mana wyrm on T2 and it's 1 of the main reasons baku rogue is as op as it is.

You also have far more 1 drops to put it on.  Mage needs to get wyrm t1 into some good spells for it to really shine.

 Cold Blood is a conditional superbuff, and if your plan is to play it on turn 2, you're either also playing a 1-drop, NOT playing a better 2-drop (and going somewhat all in on your first 1-drop), and wasting it when you could be saving it for Leeroy burst later on.  The only minion I'm annoyed at seeing Cold Blood played on is Argent Squire.  Anything else is a giant waste of Cold Blood unless it's to create a

favorable trade and protect a bigger minion. 

Your arguements are terrible and lack any logic. 

I'm talking about baku rogue which does not play 2 drops.  It's better to play it on a 1 drop than on leeroy later as it can and often does get multiple attacks in b4 it can be killed.

Failing that you can burst for 14 later for only 7 mana.

 

 Ah whoops, you're right.  Anyways, I don't think it's correct to make the blanket claim that "Cold Blood is always better on a 1-drop than on Leeroy," since minions on board will always be played around, and burst from hand will only sometimes be played around.  Furthermore, if you're going to make a claim that Cold Blood is OP you're going to need to back it up, other than to say it's good to play on an early minion.  

Mana Wyrm, it's really easy to see how that card needed to be nerfed.  It's a 1-drop that absolutely must be removed at all costs, which is hard for most decks to do on turn 1, since you need immediate hard removal.  Most of the time it's played on turn 1, it trades with multiple resources or a much higher cost minion.  

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

I don't need to back it up.  Cold blood is a broken card.  Far more broken than even power overwhelming or ice lance which were removed.

 

 lol okay so your argument begins and ends with "i dont need to back it up."  this part of the conversation is over. 

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

The reality is baku rogue is the best aggro deck in the game and cold blood is a major factor in that.

 Once again, the stats simply do not support this claim.  Depending on what you consider an aggro deck, at the legend rank, Token Druid, Zoo Warlock, Even Shaman, and Odd Paladin all have slightly higher winrates than Odd Rogue.  

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

 

There are other situations like a vicious fledgling which can't be insta killed.  Followerd up by putting cold blood on it into windfury.  That's already gg.  You also can protect those minions easier and cheaper with the weapon.

 A T1 1/3 is much harder to deal with on T1 than a T3 3/3 on T3.  You should know that.

I'm not talking about Aggro Deck vs Aggro Deck to determine which is better.  I'm talking about overall winrate against the meta, which is what VS statistics show.  

But I don't understand stats I suppose, so maybe you could explain what they really mean for me?   Or maybe you could explain how your vast knowledge of the game is superior to the collective statistics from thousands of players?

I'd really like to improve and I appreciate all sources of help.  

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

Quote from C_A_W >>

Giggling Inventor was a problem too, even bigger if you ask me, though still not big enough to just wipe out the card out of existence. Honestly, what archetype will play it now? It's worse than all the other options avaliable. Community's reaction on this is also well done, increase its cost to 6, so it actually has a proper cost and can be used. Blizzard's words "at 7 mana this card may ocasionally see play" are outright ridiculous, you don't play Deathwing just because there is a chance your opponent's board is too big. You look for consistency.

Since you have already read Blizzard's article, I think you should know why they nerfed it to 7 mana not 6 mana. They said AFTER testing GI at 6 mana, they think it's still too strong. I see no reason not to believe them, considering they were against ANY nerfs few weeks ago.

Also you are speaking out of pure speculation, you have NO data to support your claims while Blizzard have. 

 

 They also tested it at 5 mana and thought it was ok.  It's pretty obvious they are clueless to the balance of many cards.  Nobody was complaining about tempo mage.  Baku rogue is a far better and more consistent aggro deck and cold blood and fungalmancer remain untouched.

Standard druid also remains untouched but Avianna get's nerfed?  There's far more cards to counter druids nonsense in wild.  Standard druid is far more op.

So you saying just because Blizzard made a mistake by releasing GI at 5 mana it means they are clueless about their game and you - a random guy - who is just speculating in thin air without any data knows more. Quite a big fallacy there. 

Also they way you are ranting about Odd Rogue and Standard druid, it is pretty obvious to me that you have no clue how to play this game.

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

Average win rates don't mean much to determine balance.  The average player is bad at the game.  Easier to pilot decks always have higher win rates regardless of power level.

Get in here warrior had around 50% win rate but still got nerfed because it was over powered in the right hands.  Your average player did not pilot the deck well so it's average win rates suffered.

This was also the case in many other games.  When lee sin was releassed in league of legends his win rate was around 50% but he was massively op.  Just high skill, high reward.  Also genji in overwatch.  They are prime examples of why average statistics are not the main determining factor in balance levels.

Odd rogue is the best aggro deck in the game.  That is a simple undeniable fact.

Even according hearthpwns statistics it is with a 63.5% win rate today.

 I was looking specifically at the legend rank. 

https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-109/

How can you say on one hand, "winrates don't mean much" but quote a 63.5% winrate from Odd Rogue as a reason it's too strong?  At least VS differentiates between Legend and lower ranks. 

Better than being someone who lacks any critical thinking or logic and blindly follows what their overlords tells them.

LOL, Speculating in thin air without any data and stating opinions as facts is NOT critical thinking or logic. This quote of yours is what I expect to hear from people who believe in conspiracy theories like Flat Earth or NASA faked moon landings. 

It feels right but Druid in standard is still nuts.  The lack of the inventor is going to let Zoo get pretty nuts.

It feels like the meta will lose some decks and not really gain anything new creeping up in power, and that’s not good. 

But hey, new expansion soon!

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

Quote from tsyeatts >>

Quote from C_A_W >>

Giggling Inventor was a problem too, even bigger if you ask me, though still not big enough to just wipe out the card out of existence. Honestly, what archetype will play it now? It's worse than all the other options avaliable. Community's reaction on this is also well done, increase its cost to 6, so it actually has a proper cost and can be used. Blizzard's words "at 7 mana this card may ocasionally see play" are outright ridiculous, you don't play Deathwing just because there is a chance your opponent's board is too big. You look for consistency.

Since you have already read Blizzard's article, I think you should know why they nerfed it to 7 mana not 6 mana. They said AFTER testing GI at 6 mana, they think it's still too strong. I see no reason not to believe them, considering they were against ANY nerfs few weeks ago.

Also you are speaking out of pure speculation, you have NO data to support your claims while Blizzard have. 

 

 Also consider that at 6 mana it is basically the same power-level but could be played in Even decks (Even Warlock specifically). 

 The only even deck is warlock and I fail to see how giggling at 6 mana would improve the deck.  You have to cut 2 cards from an already well established deck to fit them and you don't have the op fungalmancer or cold blood follow up.

 The idea is that you use it to slow down decks that might hit your face otherwise. It's a good trigger for Defile as well, as you create a 1 health and two 3 health minions off one card, rather than having to save Kobold and hope they have the 3 health to connect to bigger stuff (obviously doesn't always work and requires some planning).

I mean....assuming all players misplay all decks I guess we will truly never know a deck's *true* winrate.  But we are then delving into the realm of pure speculation.  You cannot say that Odd Rogue is better just because you feel like it is, even if the stats disagree.  The best tools we have to evaluate how strong a card or deck is.....is statistics from real games.   If you have a better method, I'd like to hear it.

HS Replay Druid Card Distribution, hf

People are gonna wonder why on earth they nerfed any of these cards in 2 months.

Quote from 1xbenx1 >>

"Melon is the problem, not Aviana" is the same argument as "Sonya is the problem, not the Rogue Quest."

If the ultimate result is busted, then it's busted. Enablers are secondary concerns.

I really can't get behind this logic. Going by this line of thinking you could have a very convoluted combo deck that is quite difficult to pull off even in casual but nets a very good result when it does work (10% of the time it works 100% of the time!!). That doesn't mean the combo should be killed. Now I'm not saying Aviana combos were only achievable 10% of the time before psychmelon, but none of the decks were consistent enough to be tier 1 or higher in wild and I only play wild.

Why do you think they nerfed lackey in Cubelock instead of Doomguard or Voidlord? Lackey made the high tempo turns much more consistent to pull off and while the demons were and are still powerful it was the support card that made them more consistent. Same line of thought goes for melon tutoring out entire combos with Aviana & Kun. I almost never saw complaint threads about Aviana & Kun before melon, branching paths, etc. Why? It was because the slower draws/cycles/tutors were lacking & it was less consistent. The busted spells, that work in more than just combo druid mind you, was what completely changed everything.