Never ever is QR a problem... It is a rewarding deck after surviving and dodging most of the stuff your opponent throws at you, if you can't pilote it, it's garbage, if you can, it's possible to be op..
QR has never EVER been OP as far as power levels go, even in its original orientation. By that same regard, pirate warrior right out of Mean Streets was also never OP: it never broke a 55% win rate.
What we learned from QR and PW is that it's not always about how STRONG a deck is, but also other factors such as how polarizing it is.
In original QR's case, when it was run correctly the entire match came down to this question: Is the opponent playing aggro or control? If the former, they win, if the latter you win. IIRC it had matchups at about a 90%-10% win/lose rate against control and reversed against aggro.
THAT was the problem. Having a game be decided by which archetype you chose is about as boring and broken as one deck dominating all others. However, it's not something you see if all you look at is how powerful the deck is.
The current meta isn't as extreme as the above, but A LOT of matchups have that "which deck did you bring? Oh that? Ok game ends you win/lose." feel with A LOT of difficulty reversing a bad matchup (which is mostly caused by a bad hand/god hand).
So if you want to tell if QR should be nerfed, think less about whether it dominates and think more about how often do you lose against decks you have an advantage against and how often do you win against decks that have an advantage against you, assuming no INSANELY BROKEN RNG on either side and the players actually can play. If you win just about all of your matches against deck A and lose against deck B, that's a problem.
And if the response is "well a lot of decks act like that." then the answer is "yes, which is why a lot of people are deeming this a bad meta."
People seem to forget that T5 said they were looking at TWO cards to consider for possible nerfs, not a whole slew of what everyone wants nerfed.
In all likelihood giggling is getting a nerf of some sort since they have already stated they were looking at it. The other slot is more up for debate, but Psychmelon seems semi likely.
Quest rogue: minions you play are 4/4. Would make GI less annoying
GI: perhaps lower the cost to 4 and summon only 1 annoy
Warrior: upgraded hero power to 3. But I suspect it won't happen since it is the only viable deck for the class
Fungalmancer: busted but doubt it will get hit
Druid: touching spreading plague will have to affect KoFT completely so I can't see it. But they could target UI, less armor, less draw, no minion summoned at all
But anyway I think we'll have to wait for Death Knights to rotate out to get a more even meta and less polarized match ups
People seem to forget that T5 said they were looking at TWO cards to consider for possible nerfs, not a whole slew of what everyone wants nerfed.
In all likelihood giggling is getting a nerf of some sort since they have already stated they were looking at it. The other slot is more up for debate, but Psychmelon seems semi likely.
People seem to forget that T5 said they were looking at TWO cards to consider for possible nerfs, not a whole slew of what everyone wants nerfed.
In all likelihood giggling is getting a nerf of some sort since they have already stated they were looking at it. The other slot is more up for debate, but Psychmelon seems semi likely.
source?
The front page of Hearthpwn? The blue post is posted at the top of the article.
We aren't getting tons of changes Monday just a potential couple of targetted changes.
Juicy Psychmelon: Draw 3 cards that costs 7.8.9 or 10 at random "you will draw 3 cards that cost 7 or 8 or 9 or 10, when u draw three cards that means you wont draw one of the specific costs" ( By this change you can draw spells instead of minion specific draw, and you will need to draw at least one to complete the combo.)
another option for it is to make it choose twice, you can only draw 2 cards of a specific cost by your choice.
my last option is to make it costs 6 or 7 ( same text ).
i dont see Baku the Mooneater or any other upgraded hero power needs the nerf, because they were there for a while and we didnt see them, THEY ARE COUNTERABLE.
They won't make any radical changes. Giggly and nourish will be 6 mana.
Odd warrior is a balanced deck I don't think it needs any nerf. It is built to counter aggro decks. If it wasn't viable, aggro would have 0 competition and everyone would spam odd rogue, machinegun mage and zoolock.
For the quest rogue department, the real issue is not sonya or prep. It's that little s**t called vicious scalehide and the gigglyboy himself. Make it stahp.
They could nerf fungalmancer but it would hurt aggro decks a little too much. Even if they nerf it, they would make a mana tweak. It should be enough.
I'm a wild player myself and druid desperatly needs a nerf, but i don't think blizzard cares about wild that much. Juicy psychemelon shouldn't even be printed in the first place. That card is broken, even a mana tweak wouldn't be enough. It would still be powerful as 5 or 6 mana card. Cleanest way to nerf it is tearing it apart, removing it.
Honestly, I think there's no need to nerf Giggling Inventor. Instead, they should pay attention to previous expansions cards. My nerf for Standard:
- Warrior HP with Baku the Mooneater, from 4 armor to 3. - Bloodreaver Gul'dan HP, from 3 damage to 2. - Ultimate Infestation, everything down to 3. I'm so freaking tired of losing on t7/t8 because my opponent fully refill his resources. It feels like the first 8 turns didn't matter at all. - Branching Paths, from 6 armor gain to 5. - Spreading Plague, adding the side effect "If you have already played it during this game, it costs (7) mana instead". - Crystal Core, from 5 mana to 7. - Preparation, adding the side effect "If you have already played it during this game, it costs (1) mana instead". - Mana Wyrm, from 1 mana to 2 OR from 3 health to 2. - Master Oakheart, from 9 mana to 10.
I'd like to see also some improvement or rework to some Legendary cards that haven't seen any play so far. Maybe I'll post ideas later.
Your side effect ideas for prep and plague are completely unorthodox and will Never happen, all quest rewards cost 5 (weapon + HP for warrior quest), Oakheart doesn't need a Nerf in the slightest. The rest are reasonable enough
Quest Rogue---Crystal Core is just a one time buff, and the minions can be silenced. This makes it still powerful, but not infinite value. Also Priest with Mass Dispel would be a hard counter.
Juicy Psychmelon---increasing cost doesn't do shit to this card. It needs to be reworked completely, or Aviana/Kun will need to be nuked to make Wild playable again.
I think Giggling is fine, it only feels oppressive in Quest rogue
Never ever is QR a problem... It is a rewarding deck after surviving and dodging most of the stuff your opponent throws at you, if you can't pilote it, it's garbage, if you can, it's possible to be op..
By that flawed logic, any dominant deck that is piloted badly is not op... But you always consider the deck when played optimally.
Ok, compared to other decks, you're forced into more micro-decisions and the gameplay is never the same, you're not forced to play anything on specific turns rather then your whole game has to adapt to your opponent... In many cases you have no early game and you are playing from behind until you managed to get the quest done... Giggling is nearly the only card which allows to stall the game, but in many, many, many cases you'll find that the game forces you to complete the Q with it... Healing etc. relies on sonya or your DK-Heropower... So you're better planing the whole game early enough, which also means to not complete Q with Sonya, while keeping it for a big swing-turn or whatever... same thing with zola and stuff... Also the correct vanish-play often finds itself with taking a ton of damage the round earlier and puts you in lethal-area...
compared to many metadecks it's not a nobrainer or autocurve-deck or turtle and draw how much you desire and swing back the game in your favour... because of that it deserves to live and has to be preserved for at least the remaining season...
It has weak matchups: Tempo-Mage, Odd-Rogue, Paladin, Zoo, Secret Hunter... It has a lot of "slightly" favoured matchups, which are all easy to throw
Arcane Tyrant - costs (1) if you've cast a spell that costs (5) or more this turn.
According to stats this is mostly a Druid card, they use it often as free body after nourishing t5, or cleaning up their hand to prevent overdraw after UI. With 1 more cost this denies body of on-curve Nourish and is unusable after 10 mana cost spells.
Personally I'd like to see global cost-reduction mechanic nerf, where cost cannot drop below (1) under any circumstances. Free cards are generally unhealthly for the game and create garbage infinite combos.
Balance changes are coming! Hooray!!! What are your predictions?
I think we'll see something along these lines
Druid: Needs a nerf badly. The whole class is busted. Ultimately, I think the biggest culprit is the classic set (Wild Growth, Nourish), but I don't know if they'll touch that at this time. I think we'll see some manner of nerf to Spreading Plague, Ultimate Infestation, or both.
Quest Rogue: Again, I think one of the biggest culprits is the classic set (Preparation, Vanish), but they might not touch that. The nerf should probably be an entire rework of the quest, but that seems too extreme for a balance change. Maybe another tweak? Like the reward is a 5/5 stealth minion that makes all other minions 5/5's or something. That way, you can interact with the stealth minion through AOE.
Giggling Inventor: People have forever said that "you can counter" giggling inventor. But the fact that every deck needs to counter it is the problem. To bust out a pokemon reference, Giggling Inventor is Garchomp circa 2008. I personally think it needs a nerf, but I don't think it will get one. That said, I only think they'll nerf Giggling Inventor if they don't do much to Quest Rogue.
Wild: I think balancing Wild format is fundamentally a sisyphean mistake. That said, people whine really loudly. I think Aviana is probably changed into a 10 mana card. That way 1 melon doesn't get the whole combo, and the whole combo also requires an unsearchable Innervate.
Baku: Short of an entire rework, I think maybe they'll just make the Baku Hero Powers cost 3? I don't really know, there is a lot here to unpack.
Druid: Agree
Quest Rogue: Agree, it should be reworked
Giggling Inventor: Agree, I really don't want to see this card nerfed because stupid decks like Odd Paladin could return to meta and other stupid decks like Zoolock could become even more OP
Aviana: Disagree, neither Aviana or Kun are problematic. Cards which help Druid to survive so long :Kappa: (yes, i know that Star Aligner Druid can kill you even on turn 4) like Branching Paths or Spreading Plague or cards which draw the entire combo in one turn (Juicy Psychmelon). Moreover, making Aviana cost 10 mana would kill her (forever); she would never be played in any kind of deck (unless blizzard would make a card that increases your maximum mana)
TL; don't read the analysis of "why is Baku designed well and why shouldn't it be nerfed" if you know what i mean earlier. Baku the Mooneater and Odd decks: Totally disagree. Upgraded hero power CAN'T cost 3 because you'd have nothing to play on mana curve on turn 2 (unless you had 3 (1)-cost cards on your opening hand plus two cards drawn, so you'd have to have 3 (1)-cost cards in 5 or 7 cards. Then, you have to decide on turn 3 if you play your hero power which does too little as for the turn it's played in, or maybe play a 3-drop and leave your hero power doing nothing special in this game (well, of course you can play hero power + 1-drop on turn 4 but why would you do it if you usually have 3-drops in your hand until turn 6-7. Baku would be extremely bad if it would make your hero power cost (1) with its ability activation condition unchanged; same with Genn upgrading your hero power. In conclusion, Baku won't be nerfed because you can't do it without killing this card.
Personally I'd like to see global cost-reduction mechanic nerf, where cost cannot drop below (1) under any circumstances. Free cards are generally unhealthly for the game and create garbage infinite combos.
So much this. Hearthstone would be so much better if all mana reduction effects worked like Summoning Portal
QR has never EVER been OP as far as power levels go, even in its original orientation. By that same regard, pirate warrior right out of Mean Streets was also never OP: it never broke a 55% win rate.
What we learned from QR and PW is that it's not always about how STRONG a deck is, but also other factors such as how polarizing it is.
In original QR's case, when it was run correctly the entire match came down to this question: Is the opponent playing aggro or control? If the former, they win, if the latter you win. IIRC it had matchups at about a 90%-10% win/lose rate against control and reversed against aggro.
THAT was the problem. Having a game be decided by which archetype you chose is about as boring and broken as one deck dominating all others. However, it's not something you see if all you look at is how powerful the deck is.
The current meta isn't as extreme as the above, but A LOT of matchups have that "which deck did you bring? Oh that? Ok game ends you win/lose." feel with A LOT of difficulty reversing a bad matchup (which is mostly caused by a bad hand/god hand).
So if you want to tell if QR should be nerfed, think less about whether it dominates and think more about how often do you lose against decks you have an advantage against and how often do you win against decks that have an advantage against you, assuming no INSANELY BROKEN RNG on either side and the players actually can play. If you win just about all of your matches against deck A and lose against deck B, that's a problem.
And if the response is "well a lot of decks act like that." then the answer is "yes, which is why a lot of people are deeming this a bad meta."
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but I do think this change is inevitable.
People seem to forget that T5 said they were looking at TWO cards to consider for possible nerfs, not a whole slew of what everyone wants nerfed.
In all likelihood giggling is getting a nerf of some sort since they have already stated they were looking at it. The other slot is more up for debate, but Psychmelon seems semi likely.
Quest rogue: minions you play are 4/4. Would make GI less annoying
GI: perhaps lower the cost to 4 and summon only 1 annoy
Warrior: upgraded hero power to 3. But I suspect it won't happen since it is the only viable deck for the class
Fungalmancer: busted but doubt it will get hit
Druid: touching spreading plague will have to affect KoFT completely so I can't see it. But they could target UI, less armor, less draw, no minion summoned at all
But anyway I think we'll have to wait for Death Knights to rotate out to get a more even meta and less polarized match ups
source?
The front page of Hearthpwn? The blue post is posted at the top of the article.
We aren't getting tons of changes Monday just a potential couple of targetted changes.
Branching Paths: You cannot choose the same option twice.
Giggling Inventor: 1/1 6 mana
Juicy Psychmelon: Draw 3 cards that costs 7.8.9 or 10 at random "you will draw 3 cards that cost 7 or 8 or 9 or 10, when u draw three cards that means you wont draw one of the specific costs" ( By this change you can draw spells instead of minion specific draw, and you will need to draw at least one to complete the combo.)
another option for it is to make it choose twice, you can only draw 2 cards of a specific cost by your choice.
my last option is to make it costs 6 or 7 ( same text ).
i dont see Baku the Mooneater or any other upgraded hero power needs the nerf, because they were there for a while and we didnt see them, THEY ARE COUNTERABLE.
They won't make any radical changes. Giggly and nourish will be 6 mana.
Odd warrior is a balanced deck I don't think it needs any nerf. It is built to counter aggro decks. If it wasn't viable, aggro would have 0 competition and everyone would spam odd rogue, machinegun mage and zoolock.
For the quest rogue department, the real issue is not sonya or prep. It's that little s**t called vicious scalehide and the gigglyboy himself. Make it stahp.
They could nerf fungalmancer but it would hurt aggro decks a little too much. Even if they nerf it, they would make a mana tweak. It should be enough.
I'm a wild player myself and druid desperatly needs a nerf, but i don't think blizzard cares about wild that much. Juicy psychemelon shouldn't even be printed in the first place. That card is broken, even a mana tweak wouldn't be enough. It would still be powerful as 5 or 6 mana card. Cleanest way to nerf it is tearing it apart, removing it.
Ready for action
Your side effect ideas for prep and plague are completely unorthodox and will Never happen, all quest rewards cost 5 (weapon + HP for warrior quest), Oakheart doesn't need a Nerf in the slightest. The rest are reasonable enough
I doubt they will touch wild, but wild needs it SO badly. So I'm holding out hope!
Quest Rogue---Crystal Core is just a one time buff, and the minions can be silenced. This makes it still powerful, but not infinite value. Also Priest with Mass Dispel would be a hard counter.
Juicy Psychmelon---increasing cost doesn't do shit to this card. It needs to be reworked completely, or Aviana/Kun will need to be nuked to make Wild playable again.
I think Giggling is fine, it only feels oppressive in Quest rogue
Somebody forgit fandral
Ok, compared to other decks, you're forced into more micro-decisions and the gameplay is never the same, you're not forced to play anything on specific turns rather then your whole game has to adapt to your opponent... In many cases you have no early game and you are playing from behind until you managed to get the quest done... Giggling is nearly the only card which allows to stall the game, but in many, many, many cases you'll find that the game forces you to complete the Q with it... Healing etc. relies on sonya or your DK-Heropower... So you're better planing the whole game early enough, which also means to not complete Q with Sonya, while keeping it for a big swing-turn or whatever... same thing with zola and stuff... Also the correct vanish-play often finds itself with taking a ton of damage the round earlier and puts you in lethal-area...
compared to many metadecks it's not a nobrainer or autocurve-deck or turtle and draw how much you desire and swing back the game in your favour... because of that it deserves to live and has to be preserved for at least the remaining season...
It has weak matchups: Tempo-Mage, Odd-Rogue, Paladin, Zoo, Secret Hunter...
It has a lot of "slightly" favoured matchups, which are all easy to throw
Is this card going under the radar? MY nerf:
Arcane Tyrant - costs (1) if you've cast a spell that costs (5) or more this turn.
According to stats this is mostly a Druid card, they use it often as free body after nourishing t5, or cleaning up their hand to prevent overdraw after UI. With 1 more cost this denies body of on-curve Nourish and is unusable after 10 mana cost spells.
Personally I'd like to see global cost-reduction mechanic nerf, where cost cannot drop below (1) under any circumstances. Free cards are generally unhealthly for the game and create garbage infinite combos.
Piloted Shredder, Knife Juggler, Mad Scientist, Dr. Boom
Need to be removed from this game
increasing Juicy Psychmelon 's manacost, won't change anything, since we are talking about ramp druid.
Druid: Agree
Quest Rogue: Agree, it should be reworked
Giggling Inventor: Agree, I really don't want to see this card nerfed because stupid decks like Odd Paladin could return to meta and other stupid decks like Zoolock could become even more OP
Aviana: Disagree, neither Aviana or Kun are problematic. Cards which help Druid to survive so long :Kappa: (yes, i know that Star Aligner Druid can kill you even on turn 4) like Branching Paths or Spreading Plague or cards which draw the entire combo in one turn (Juicy Psychmelon). Moreover, making Aviana cost 10 mana would kill her (forever); she would never be played in any kind of deck (unless blizzard would make a card that increases your maximum mana)
TL; don't read the analysis of "why is Baku designed well and why shouldn't it be nerfed" if you know what i mean earlier. Baku the Mooneater and Odd decks: Totally disagree. Upgraded hero power CAN'T cost 3 because you'd have nothing to play on mana curve on turn 2 (unless you had 3 (1)-cost cards on your opening hand plus two cards drawn, so you'd have to have 3 (1)-cost cards in 5 or 7 cards. Then, you have to decide on turn 3 if you play your hero power which does too little as for the turn it's played in, or maybe play a 3-drop and leave your hero power doing nothing special in this game (well, of course you can play hero power + 1-drop on turn 4 but why would you do it if you usually have 3-drops in your hand until turn 6-7. Baku would be extremely bad if it would make your hero power cost (1) with its ability activation condition unchanged; same with Genn upgrading your hero power. In conclusion, Baku won't be nerfed because you can't do it without killing this card.
those of u saying Tank UP should ne nerfed to 3 armour are on drugs. theres no way they are nerfing that HP.
MARK MY WORDS
Giggling Inventor -> 3 Mana - Battlecry: Summon a 1/2 mech with Taunt and Divine Shield.
Aviana -> 10 Mana
Juicy Psychmelon -> 5 Mana -> Draw 4 minions.
The Caverns Below -> [Crystal Core] -> Minions in your deck are 4/4.
So much this. Hearthstone would be so much better if all mana reduction effects worked like Summoning Portal
Personal opinion:
Giggling Inventor cost up from 5 to 6 mana (or maybe 7, because 6 mana GI will make even decks' defense crazier)
Prince Keleseth now give minions in your deck +1 attack
Aviana minions cost from (1) to (2)
Juicy Psychmelon cost from 4 to 7