aviana needs to be nerfed. its restricting any future design idea... like togwaggle was supposed to be a meme and look now. its one of the best decks for druid(in wild even better becouse of aviana).
like other said : melon 6 mana , giggling 6mana , mana wyrm 2 mana or 1 mana 1/2. baku nerf for warrior(3 armor) paladin(2/2) and maybe rogue( think its okayish). fungelmancer 6 mana. rogue quest = bounce back = no buff anymore. UI nerf would maybe be pretty good, everything for 4 (4 dmg armor etc) drawing 4 cards feels tbh a little better, so you dont have to dump your cards meaninglessly.
aviana needs to be nerfed. its restricting any future design idea... like togwaggle was supposed to be a meme and look now. its one of the best decks for druid(in wild even better becouse of aviana).
Togwaggle was "supposed" to be a meme? Really. Which Member of Team 5 made this statement? Point me to some source containing the M word.
Regardless of what it was supposed to be, Togwaggle is a real deck. Even in Standard. It's been brought to major championships. And it's won matches in them.
I think Giggling Inventor will become 6 mana (and I am very unhappy about that. There are potent tech cards against it), some kind of murder of Wild Growth, and something to hurt combo druids in wild. Other than that I have no idea what they may change
I don't foresee any radical changes, either in Odd/Even mechanics, or in lotsa cards, as people are complaining. I don't think that Quest rogue is unbeatable and I often beat them, with different decks. Numbers say everything: according to hsreplay, the average winrate of quest rogue is 49 %, ie. it's a tier 3 deck! I don't think it deserves a nerf.
According to their past decisions, we might see a nerf on Giggling Inventor not because it's too powerful, but because it appears in just any deck (anyone can remember patches and pirates on Priest decks? haha) ...
I saw people complaining about Hench-Clan Thug, but when I play rogue it hardly ever stands more than one turn. (ok when it survives it's a snowball but it's rare).
Again there is a problem with Aviana / Juicy Psychmelon. I imagine there will be a nerf in some of these cards. I like the idea of Aviana costing 10. (though yes, there is innervate and the coin ...)
They're the ramp class. That's fine, until you give the class draw, armor, and stall. Literally no weakness for the Druid class. Ramp, stall, draw, combo out. Or ramp, draw, vomit minions, stall, apply buffs, smash face. No downside. So, take away the draw or take away the armor gain/stall. Spreading Plague beetles at 1/3, maaaybe 1/4. 4 (8) armor off Branching Paths is still excessive, but whatever; it's still better than what it is now. UI to 4 everything is alright. The damage from that card is done, and it'll be gone from standard soon. Just, it's almost like they specifically looked at every weakness the Druid class had, and checked them off the list as they eliminated them.
I don't think they'll touch any DKs. Too close to rotation and they'll not be eager to refund that dust. Ditto for the Rogue Quest.
They're going to up the mana cost on Giggling Inventor and that's a shame. Card is fine, neutral counterplay available. Minion-based combat was what this game was about, long long ago. Leave it be. Hench Clan is fine. I get the Mana Wyrm hate, but I'm biased and like the card as-is. And altering (nerfing) it opens up a can of worms; specifically that would show they're willing to make *significant* changes to the Classic set, beyond just moving cards to the HoF. Classic is long overdue for an overhaul, be it adding, rotating, nerfing, buffing cards in the Classic set or that should be added/removed from the set. *That's* probably where they need to be focusing their energy. The core make-up and identity of classes is supposed to be found there; the class' backbone if you will. Them recently adding cards to fill in the gaps moving stuff to HoF shows it's on their mind and they've talked about adding legendaries as well. So maybe that's a core component they're actually ready to address.
IMO Avianna is a cool and fun card that should be left alone. Kun is the problem. Any card that gives you access to 10 mana in the same turn, without counterplay, is potentially a problem.
Fact: Avianna was not abused and broken prior to Kun.
Fact: Twig of the World Tree is strong without being broken, because of the possibility of counterplay.
Fact: If not for Kun, SAD Druid wouldn't be a problem.
Fact: Practically no one uses Kun for 10 armor.
Fact: Kun sees no play in decks that don't also have Avianna (it doesn't make sense to run one but not the other).
IMO Avianna is a cool and fun card that should be left alone. Kun is the problem. Any card that gives you access to 10 mana in the same turn, without counterplay, is potentially a problem.
Fact: Avianna was not abused and broken prior to Kun.
Fact: Twig of the World Tree is strong without being broken, because of the possibility of counterplay.
Fact: If not for Kun, SAD Druid wouldn't be a problem.
Fact: Practically no one uses Kun for 10 armor.
Fact: Kun sees no play in decks that don't also have Avianna (it doesn't make sense to run one but not the other).
Nerf Kun.
Fact: kun was run as a tech in jade druid without aviana.
fact: I can make up stuff as long as I put "fact" before them (the above statement isn't made up though)
aviana is clearly the problematic card, not kun.. if you nerf kun, you can still combo with twig + florist and the combo is still degenerate
. how would you nerf kun anyway?... aviana is the problem cardof the combo not kun.
IMO Avianna is a cool and fun card that should be left alone. Kun is the problem. Any card that gives you access to 10 mana in the same turn, without counterplay, is potentially a problem.
Fact: Avianna was not abused and broken prior to Kun.
Fact: Twig of the World Tree is strong without being broken, because of the possibility of counterplay.
Fact: If not for Kun, SAD Druid wouldn't be a problem.
Fact: Practically no one uses Kun for 10 armor.
Fact: Kun sees no play in decks that don't also have Avianna (it doesn't make sense to run one but not the other).
Nerf Kun.
Fact: kun was run as a tech in jade druid without aviana.
fact: I can make up stuff as long as I put "fact" before them (the above statement isn't made up though)
aviana is clearly the problematic card, not kun.. if you nerf kun, you can still combo with twig + florist and the combo is still degenerate
. how would you nerf kun anyway?... aviana is the problem cardof the combo not kun.
I don't mean to completely remove Avianna from viability. The things you mention are multi-turn, multi-card setups with interaction. Playing Twig, your opponent can simply use weapon removal. Playing Florist, your opponent can simply play Dirty Rat knowing you have a vital combo piece in hand. Aviana + Kun right now is simply broken. I don't know how I'd change Kun. I know whatever I suggest will either be turned down as "you made Kun completely unplayable" or "that will never happen," so as someone who is not a game designer, I'll just stay out of it. It's not up to the players to find solutions; it's up to us to point out the problems.
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To everyone claiming that nerfing Sonya would be better than nerfing Crystal Core again because it would allow Blizzard to "save face", you're treating this as if Blizzard is a high school kid afraid of losing the popularity contest. Your proposal is asinine, a good company (or any functional adult for that matter) is always willing to admit their earlier mistakes and correct them. It's not about appearances, and emotion or "looking bad" should not be part of the rationalization. Sonya is not the problem.
The real problem with the quest (or most busted cards for that matter) isn't that it's too easy to complete, but that once complete, there is no way to win against it. This is actually the same exact frustration people have been complaining about with Shudderwock, DK Jaina/Guldan, and Kingsbane decks - it all boils down the to interactivity/polarization aspect.
I propose the Crystal Core nerf to exclude any summoned minions and allow silencing (similarly DK Jaina's lifesteal needs to be silenceable as well). With that said, I believe the only nerfs we're likely to see now is Giggling Inventor and Juicy Psychomelon.
I have been living under a rock... so please explain me why gigling inventor is so good and in which decks it is played so often?
it is played in every non even deck, it's amazing beause it's a free wall that tanks potentially 4 attacks, control decks use it as a wall, and aggro decks play it for tempo in order to defend their high attack minions.
avianna being 10 mana wouldnt even kill any druid combo wth?? now druid would have to use innervate and remove some cards. and melon cant draw all of the combo. i think it would be the best nerf in hs history without killing the card.
also druids identity they couldnt remove big guys easily and now it is negeted by spellstone i cant believe they made this card. same goes for spreading plague.
"identity" my ass.
dont think quest rogue will get nerfed. people just parroting what they hear. its just a meh deck. bouncing deleting the buff would be ridiculous. i wish they completely change the reward but yeah.. :/
baku cant change. warrior is having hard time even against aggro. flurry, shield slam and brawl have already some disadvantages and clunkiness already.
giggling inv being 1/1 lol what? what that would change? best nerf is making her 5 mana 2/4 with only one annoytron. making her 6 mana...*shrugs thinking wild even shaman*
Never ever is QR a problem... It is a rewarding deck after surviving and dodging most of the stuff your opponent throws at you, if you can't pilote it, it's garbage, if you can, it's possible to be op..
Never ever is QR a problem... It is a rewarding deck after surviving and dodging most of the stuff your opponent throws at you, if you can't pilote it, it's garbage, if you can, it's possible to be op..
By that flawed logic, any dominant deck that is piloted badly is not op... But you always consider the deck when played optimally.
Even if you play Quest rogues optimally it is far from being overpowered. Just check how many QRs were played in the last tournaments. It is not a "must have" deck (like Patron Warrior was or Razakus Priest after KotfT). There are favored matchups like Odd Warrior or attrition decks in general but there are bad matchups as well (like aggro decks). And it doesn't have better matchups than Odd Warrior has against aggro.
Honestly, I think there's no need to nerf Giggling Inventor. Instead, they should pay attention to previous expansions cards. My nerf for Standard:
- Warrior HP with Baku the Mooneater, from 4 armor to 3. - Bloodreaver Gul'dan HP, from 3 damage to 2. - Ultimate Infestation, everything down to 3. I'm so freaking tired of losing on t7/t8 because my opponent fully refill his resources. It feels like the first 8 turns didn't matter at all. - Branching Paths, from 6 armor gain to 5. - Spreading Plague, adding the side effect "If you have already played it during this game, it costs (7) mana instead". - Crystal Core, from 5 mana to 7. - Preparation, adding the side effect "If you have already played it during this game, it costs (1) mana instead". - Mana Wyrm, from 1 mana to 2 OR from 3 health to 2. - Master Oakheart, from 9 mana to 10.
I'd like to see also some improvement or rework to some Legendary cards that haven't seen any play so far. Maybe I'll post ideas later.
I have been living under a rock... so please explain me why gigling inventor is so good and in which decks it is played so often?
IMO it's almost certainly the best neutral in the game. Piloted Shredder levels of play and impact. That alone isn't a problem. Something is always going to be the best.
But the real issue, IMO, is that it becomes busted in Quest Rogue. This is why I said in the OP that I don't think that they nerf GI, unless they choose to leave the Rogue Quest untouched.
aviana needs to be nerfed. its restricting any future design idea... like togwaggle was supposed to be a meme and look now. its one of the best decks for druid(in wild even better becouse of aviana).
like other said : melon 6 mana , giggling 6mana , mana wyrm 2 mana or 1 mana 1/2. baku nerf for warrior(3 armor) paladin(2/2) and maybe rogue( think its okayish). fungelmancer 6 mana. rogue quest = bounce back = no buff anymore. UI nerf would maybe be pretty good, everything for 4 (4 dmg armor etc) drawing 4 cards feels tbh a little better, so you dont have to dump your cards meaninglessly.
I don't think Psychmelon can be even barely hit by mana cost increase.
Blizz should really consider ban list for Wild.
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Togwaggle was "supposed" to be a meme? Really. Which Member of Team 5 made this statement? Point me to some source containing the M word.
Regardless of what it was supposed to be, Togwaggle is a real deck. Even in Standard. It's been brought to major championships. And it's won matches in them.
I think Giggling Inventor will become 6 mana (and I am very unhappy about that. There are potent tech cards against it), some kind of murder of Wild Growth, and something to hurt combo druids in wild. Other than that I have no idea what they may change
I don't foresee any radical changes, either in Odd/Even mechanics, or in lotsa cards, as people are complaining. I don't think that Quest rogue is unbeatable and I often beat them, with different decks. Numbers say everything: according to hsreplay, the average winrate of quest rogue is 49 %, ie. it's a tier 3 deck! I don't think it deserves a nerf.
According to their past decisions, we might see a nerf on Giggling Inventor not because it's too powerful, but because it appears in just any deck (anyone can remember patches and pirates on Priest decks? haha) ...
I saw people complaining about Hench-Clan Thug, but when I play rogue it hardly ever stands more than one turn. (ok when it survives it's a snowball but it's rare).
Again there is a problem with Aviana / Juicy Psychmelon. I imagine there will be a nerf in some of these cards. I like the idea of Aviana costing 10. (though yes, there is innervate and the coin ...)
Druid needs a rework.
They're the ramp class. That's fine, until you give the class draw, armor, and stall. Literally no weakness for the Druid class. Ramp, stall, draw, combo out. Or ramp, draw, vomit minions, stall, apply buffs, smash face. No downside. So, take away the draw or take away the armor gain/stall. Spreading Plague beetles at 1/3, maaaybe 1/4. 4 (8) armor off Branching Paths is still excessive, but whatever; it's still better than what it is now. UI to 4 everything is alright. The damage from that card is done, and it'll be gone from standard soon. Just, it's almost like they specifically looked at every weakness the Druid class had, and checked them off the list as they eliminated them.
I don't think they'll touch any DKs. Too close to rotation and they'll not be eager to refund that dust. Ditto for the Rogue Quest.
They're going to up the mana cost on Giggling Inventor and that's a shame. Card is fine, neutral counterplay available. Minion-based combat was what this game was about, long long ago. Leave it be. Hench Clan is fine. I get the Mana Wyrm hate, but I'm biased and like the card as-is. And altering (nerfing) it opens up a can of worms; specifically that would show they're willing to make *significant* changes to the Classic set, beyond just moving cards to the HoF. Classic is long overdue for an overhaul, be it adding, rotating, nerfing, buffing cards in the Classic set or that should be added/removed from the set. *That's* probably where they need to be focusing their energy. The core make-up and identity of classes is supposed to be found there; the class' backbone if you will. Them recently adding cards to fill in the gaps moving stuff to HoF shows it's on their mind and they've talked about adding legendaries as well. So maybe that's a core component they're actually ready to address.
IMO Avianna is a cool and fun card that should be left alone. Kun is the problem. Any card that gives you access to 10 mana in the same turn, without counterplay, is potentially a problem.
Nerf Kun.
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Fact: kun was run as a tech in jade druid without aviana.
fact: I can make up stuff as long as I put "fact" before them (the above statement isn't made up though)
aviana is clearly the problematic card, not kun.. if you nerf kun, you can still combo with twig + florist and the combo is still degenerate
. how would you nerf kun anyway?... aviana is the problem cardof the combo not kun.
I don't mean to completely remove Avianna from viability. The things you mention are multi-turn, multi-card setups with interaction. Playing Twig, your opponent can simply use weapon removal. Playing Florist, your opponent can simply play Dirty Rat knowing you have a vital combo piece in hand. Aviana + Kun right now is simply broken. I don't know how I'd change Kun. I know whatever I suggest will either be turned down as "you made Kun completely unplayable" or "that will never happen," so as someone who is not a game designer, I'll just stay out of it. It's not up to the players to find solutions; it's up to us to point out the problems.
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To everyone claiming that nerfing Sonya would be better than nerfing Crystal Core again because it would allow Blizzard to "save face", you're treating this as if Blizzard is a high school kid afraid of losing the popularity contest. Your proposal is asinine, a good company (or any functional adult for that matter) is always willing to admit their earlier mistakes and correct them. It's not about appearances, and emotion or "looking bad" should not be part of the rationalization. Sonya is not the problem.
The real problem with the quest (or most busted cards for that matter) isn't that it's too easy to complete, but that once complete, there is no way to win against it. This is actually the same exact frustration people have been complaining about with Shudderwock, DK Jaina/Guldan, and Kingsbane decks - it all boils down the to interactivity/polarization aspect.
I propose the Crystal Core nerf to exclude any summoned minions and allow silencing (similarly DK Jaina's lifesteal needs to be silenceable as well). With that said, I believe the only nerfs we're likely to see now is Giggling Inventor and Juicy Psychomelon.
Nerf to tank up to 3 armor
change to rogue weapon from a 2/2 to a 1/4, or a 1/2 with windfury (and maybe lifesteal)
giggling inventor costs 6 mana
hench clan thug is a 2/2
branching path costs 1 mana more
I have been living under a rock... so please explain me why gigling inventor is so good and in which decks it is played so often?
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Aviana -> 10 Mana
Tank up -> 3 armor gain
Sonya Shadowdancer -> 4 mana
Giggling Inventor -> 6 mana
Happy Ghoul -> cost (1) when you healed this turn
https://outof.cards
it is played in every non even deck, it's amazing beause it's a free wall that tanks potentially 4 attacks, control decks use it as a wall, and aggro decks play it for tempo in order to defend their high attack minions.
wow this thread isnt what i expected.
avianna being 10 mana wouldnt even kill any druid combo wth?? now druid would have to use innervate and remove some cards. and melon cant draw all of the combo. i think it would be the best nerf in hs history without killing the card.
also druids identity they couldnt remove big guys easily and now it is negeted by spellstone i cant believe they made this card. same goes for spreading plague.
"identity" my ass.
dont think quest rogue will get nerfed. people just parroting what they hear. its just a meh deck. bouncing deleting the buff would be ridiculous. i wish they completely change the reward but yeah.. :/
baku cant change. warrior is having hard time even against aggro. flurry, shield slam and brawl have already some disadvantages and clunkiness already.
giggling inv being 1/1 lol what? what that would change? best nerf is making her 5 mana 2/4 with only one annoytron. making her 6 mana...*shrugs thinking wild even shaman*
mana wyrm being 1/2 is still very much playable.
Never ever is QR a problem... It is a rewarding deck after surviving and dodging most of the stuff your opponent throws at you, if you can't pilote it, it's garbage, if you can, it's possible to be op..
Even if you play Quest rogues optimally it is far from being overpowered. Just check how many QRs were played in the last tournaments. It is not a "must have" deck (like Patron Warrior was or Razakus Priest after KotfT). There are favored matchups like Odd Warrior or attrition decks in general but there are bad matchups as well (like aggro decks). And it doesn't have better matchups than Odd Warrior has against aggro.
Honestly, I think there's no need to nerf Giggling Inventor. Instead, they should pay attention to previous expansions cards.
My nerf for Standard:
- Warrior HP with Baku the Mooneater, from 4 armor to 3.
- Bloodreaver Gul'dan HP, from 3 damage to 2.
- Ultimate Infestation, everything down to 3. I'm so freaking tired of losing on t7/t8 because my opponent fully refill his resources. It feels like the first 8 turns didn't matter at all.
- Branching Paths, from 6 armor gain to 5.
- Spreading Plague, adding the side effect "If you have already played it during this game, it costs (7) mana instead".
- Crystal Core, from 5 mana to 7.
- Preparation, adding the side effect "If you have already played it during this game, it costs (1) mana instead".
- Mana Wyrm, from 1 mana to 2 OR from 3 health to 2.
- Master Oakheart, from 9 mana to 10.
I'd like to see also some improvement or rework to some Legendary cards that haven't seen any play so far. Maybe I'll post ideas later.
IMO it's almost certainly the best neutral in the game. Piloted Shredder levels of play and impact. That alone isn't a problem. Something is always going to be the best.
But the real issue, IMO, is that it becomes busted in Quest Rogue. This is why I said in the OP that I don't think that they nerf GI, unless they choose to leave the Rogue Quest untouched.
Prep 100% going to be reduced from 3 mana crystals to 2.
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