Hearthpwn

Quote from DestroyerR >>

Just to be clear: I understand where people are coming from when they want to ban competitive decks from casual. After all, it’s no fun trying your whacky homebrew deck just to get squashed by a serious deck. But why haven’t people playing casual considered conceding when seeing a serious deck? There’s no punishment, and it spares you a boring game you know you’ll probably lose.

 It's not always obvious right away unless it's Odd Paladin or Odd Rogue.   Most games, I've already invested a good 5 to 10 minutes, and at that point, part of me just wants to try and beat these netdeckers because it would be so satisfying. 

What's wrong with casual?   It's a different mode than Ladder, and as such I want and expect a different experience.  45% of the time (or more, I stopped tracking after Boomsday), it's the same experience.  I'm not saying it absolutely must be 0% netdecks or else, but IMO (which means in my opinion and you are free to disagree, no one person's opinion means more than another's, and just because you netdeck casual doesn't mean my opinion matters less), 45% occurrence is too high. 

Quote from DestroyerR >>

 

What's wrong with casual?   It's a different mode than Ladder, and as such I want and expect a different experience.  45% of the time (or more, I stopped tracking after Boomsday), it's the same experience.  I'm not saying it absolutely must be 0% netdecks or else, but IMO (which means in my opinion and you are free to disagree, no one person's opinion means more than another's, and just because you netdeck casual doesn't mean my opinion matters less), 45% occurrence is too high. 

 Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. As you said, it’s a matter of opinion. But then again, if you can just concede after seeing a competitive deck (or beating it, whatever you want) or even challenging a friend for a non-competitive duel if it’s so important to you, why suggest a change that would make all the casual players lose by suggesting that nobody gets any gold? There are, after all, a lot of people that play casual to grind (which is a perfectly valid cause, that player has all the right to do that), and you just want to make a change that would invalidate that player’s strategy completely while your problem can be more easily worked around?

Edit: oh, and BTW, those statistics may not be true, you should be aware of that. Also, I don’t netdeck in casual. I don’t even play casual.

 Those statistics are my own, taken from 235 games of Casual over a 2 week period, prior to the release of Boomsday (my initial suspicions are that the number is far higher right now).  

Why not just concede?  Like I said, it's not always clear immediately that it's a netdeck (and maybe they're playing an extremely budget version anyways?)  Why not queue up with friends for friendly games?  Because I highly doubt anyone on my friends list wants to play casual Hearthstone for 2 or 3 hours straight.  

Why ruin Casual (as you put it) for everyone else by not rewarding gold?  Once again, I am not a game designer, nor am I suggesting this is the only solution, nor is the measure of my argument (that Casual has major issues that need looking at) my ability to come up with a solution.  

Quote from Kaladin >>

I believe there is opportunity for change that would leave everyone on average happier (unless you would be angry at some players having a better experience for some reason). 

I'm not expecting immediate response.  I'm expecting a response. 

Further clutter the UI? 

I don't get you.  You are fanboying Blizzard harder than I ever did when defending Drakonid Operative.

Of course you aren't understanding because I'm logically looking at this issue. I really haven't been seeing you take the perspective of people who want the mode to be kept as it has always been since launch (ie where you could play what you want without other players micro-managing your play experience through forced bans), nor have I seen you consider the valid points of people who enjoy the satisfaction of winning challenging games during meme vs ladder deck games (as opposed to the lack of challenge by facing comparatively less consistent meme decks). If you want to understand other players/people that feel or debate for things differently than you then you are going to need to engage in some of that perspective-taking. Why else do you think I have argued for the lack of need to nerf Big Priest in wild despite personally really disliking the match-up myself? It is because I recognized very strong and legitimate points that the deck has many weak match-ups/tech. That is part of the reason I argue against allowing a portion of the HS community decide what is or isn't fun for everyone else who plays casual (although I've stated other reasons why I support keeping it how it is, such as my general philosophy that the casual nature of the game fits being able to quickly load up the game and play whatever deck you wanted without having to pick through decks other players have dictated that you can't play in a casual game).

Yes, further clutter the UI. This is not one of my own points, but something that the T5 team have addressed to varying degrees throughout the life of the game. HS is not only played on pcs & laptops, but phones as well. The more menus you make for new modes on the main screen the less navigable the game is when playing on such a platform. However, like I said, this is not a point that I push due to my own feelings on the matter. If you'd like posts word-for-word from T5 you'd have sift through their posts over the last couple of years.

And if you get a response that you don't find satisfactory or in line with your own philosophy for what the casual game should be? What then? If T5 officially posts something along the lines of not making significant changes to casual due to them believing that players should be able to play what they want would you continue to insist on changing the mode? You seem confident that a huge number of players feel how you feel, sometimes implying that you may even be a majority in the overall community. You may not be. T5's design philosophy may not even align with what you feel is ruining casual. So far their actions imply this. 

Quote from Mojomaker >>

I see people complaining about the decks being played in casual all the time. But no one seems to have a possible solution method. I rarely play casual, so I couldn't care less tbh. But shouldn't you be able to play what you want in a mode called "casual"?

You can play with your homebrew decks and you can also try a tier 1 deck without sweating it up in Ranked. 

I, personally,  try my shitty decks in ranked because beating a rank 24 guy who is playing with basic cards is not fun for me. I'm not judging anyone, it's just my personal opinion. 

So, my question is: Why is casual problematic for you? And how would you fix it?

If it helps I started a thread with an idea on how to fix this. Anyone interested in joining the REAL casual network is welcome to post there and have some fun:

https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/222850-who-wants-to-play-fairer-hearthstone

Casual is the best way of farming, deal with it.

Quote from Lyra_Silvertongue >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

I believe there is opportunity for change that would leave everyone on average happier (unless you would be angry at some players having a better experience for some reason). 

I'm not expecting immediate response.  I'm expecting a response. 

Further clutter the UI? 

I don't get you.  You are fanboying Blizzard harder than I ever did when defending Drakonid Operative.

Of course you aren't understanding because I'm logically looking at this issue. I really haven't been seeing you take the perspective of people who want the mode to be kept as it has always been since launch (ie where you could play what you want without other players micro-managing your play experience through forced bans), nor have I seen you consider the valid points of people who enjoy the satisfaction of winning challenging games during meme vs ladder deck games (as opposed to the lack of challenge by facing comparatively less consistent meme decks). If you want to understand other players/people that feel or debate for things differently than you then you are going to need to engage in some of that perspective-taking. Why else do you think I have argued for the lack of need to nerf Big Priest in wild despite personally really disliking the match-up myself? It is because I recognized very strong and legitimate points that the deck has many weak match-ups/tech. That is part of the reason I argue against allowing a portion of the HS community decide what is or isn't fun for everyone else who plays casual (although I've stated other reasons why I support keeping it how it is, such as my general philosophy that the casual nature of the game fits being able to quickly load up the game and play whatever deck you wanted without having to pick through decks other players have dictated that you can't play in a casual game).

Yes, further clutter the UI. This is not one of my own points, but something that the T5 team have addressed to varying degrees throughout the life of the game. HS is not only played on pcs & laptops, but phones as well. The more menus you make for new modes on the main screen the less navigable the game is when playing on such a platform. However, like I said, this is not a point that I push due to my own feelings on the matter. If you'd like posts word-for-word from T5 you'd have sift through their posts over the last couple of years.

And if you get a response that you don't find satisfactory or in line with your own philosophy for what the casual game should be? What then? If T5 officially posts something along the lines of not making significant changes to casual due to them believing that players should be able to play what they want would you continue to insist on changing the mode? You seem confident that a huge number of players feel how you feel, sometimes implying that you may even be a majority in the overall community. You may not be. T5's design philosophy may not even align with what you feel is ruining casual. So far their actions imply this. 

 That's a great point that I had not considered.

Team 5 please give us a mode where I can play my meme deck against competitive ladder decks!

Quote from DestroyerR >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from DestroyerR >>

 

What's wrong with casual?   It's a different mode than Ladder, and as such I want and expect a different experience.  45% of the time (or more, I stopped tracking after Boomsday), it's the same experience.  I'm not saying it absolutely must be 0% netdecks or else, but IMO (which means in my opinion and you are free to disagree, no one person's opinion means more than another's, and just because you netdeck casual doesn't mean my opinion matters less), 45% occurrence is too high. 

 Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. As you said, it’s a matter of opinion. But then again, if you can just concede after seeing a competitive deck (or beating it, whatever you want) or even challenging a friend for a non-competitive duel if it’s so important to you, why suggest a change that would make all the casual players lose by suggesting that nobody gets any gold? There are, after all, a lot of people that play casual to grind (which is a perfectly valid cause, that player has all the right to do that), and you just want to make a change that would invalidate that player’s strategy completely while your problem can be more easily worked around?

Edit: oh, and BTW, those statistics may not be true, you should be aware of that. Also, I don’t netdeck in casual. I don’t even play casual.

 Those statistics are my own, taken from 235 games of Casual over a 2 week period, prior to the release of Boomsday (my initial suspicions are that the number is far higher right now).  

Why not just concede?  Like I said, it's not always clear immediately that it's a netdeck (and maybe they're playing an extremely budget version anyways?)  Why not queue up with friends for friendly games?  Because I highly doubt anyone on my friends list wants to play casual Hearthstone for 2 or 3 hours straight.  

Why ruin Casual (as you put it) for everyone else by not rewarding gold?  Once again, I am not a game designer, nor am I suggesting this is the only solution, nor is the measure of my argument (that Casual has major issues that need looking at) my ability to come up with a solution.  

 Ok, so don’t concede. Keep playing, or do whatever you want, really. But the fact remains that you have an easy and immediate way out of a matchup you don’t like. If you decided to stay, it was your choice, and therefore it’s not the system’s problem.

In short, it isn’t really a severe problem if you already have a way around it that doesn’t require any significant effort or time.

 I'm not sure if you read what I wrote or if I just didn't make it clear enough....lemme try again, assuming the latter.  

Most of the time, it's not clear if you're facing a netdeck until most of the way through the game, with the exception of Baku/Genn decks.  It would be ridiculous to auto-concede against every non Baku Rogue for instance.

Does that clear it up?  Would you like me to explain in even simpler terms?  I don't know that I can but if it's still unclear I'll give it a shot. 

Quote from DestroyerR >>

 No, I understood what you meant. It’s just that 5 to 10 minutes is so negligible you could count that as insignificant. Besides, it’s not that hard to realize when a deck is a competitive one: after all, they basically netdeck. The serious decks also tend to have a strong early game, so it’s not that hard to identify the same cards over and over again. Past that point, you can make a decision. If you concede, well you wasted 10 minutes max. If you keep playing, that’s on you.

 ...........5 to 10 minutes is the length of most full games.  

When I am being told to simply concede 45% of my games (or more), that 5 to 10 minutes adds up quickly.  Regularly (as in, I have 30 minutes in the morning that I play Hearthstone while eating breakfast before work), I have limited time to play.  3 games where I have to concede 4 or 5 minutes in is my entire play time.  

Hmm this might sound crazy but i think there's nothing wrong with, people just enjoy complaining. If it wasn't casual it would be something else. As they say if there's a will there's a way and there's something to complain about. 

well, casual mode is a gold farming world or it was, because nowadays your MMR even counts in there

thats why you're most likely gonna find some good decks in there as well

Quote from Kaladin >>

 That's a great point that I had not considered.

Team 5 please give us a mode where I can play my meme deck against competitive ladder decks!

See it is these kinds of responses where I can't take your arguments as seriously. I probably am not perfectly representing all sides of the argument on this, but I at least usually try to make serious attempts why somebody who has the 'other' opinion may have valid points, while still pointing out how those differing opinions can potentially affect the play experience of players who don't have that opinion. In this thread all I have seen you do is dismiss the points other posters and myself have given you, while restating your own view multiple times.

Some players want to play meme decks without ever facing the same strong decks that are on ladder. Meanwhile, other players want the option to face any deck, meme or not, left alone. At this point I feel I am having to repeat myself unnecessarily. Currently you don't seem receptive to any post unless it is ultimately telling you what you want to hear.

In regards to your other posts talking about not knowing you are facing a serious deck very often I have to respectfully disagree. The following decks are very quickly determined to be their respective archtypes early on:

• Kingsbane Rogue (Shinyfinder on T2, playing almost no minions & often attacking you with dagger early on).
• Big Priest (Barnes on T3-5, recruit on T6, also playing no minions for many turns if they miss Barnes).
• Spell Hunter (Multiple traps in early game, also no minions).
• Quest Control Priest (Quest on T1).
• Any quest deck
• Jade Shaman (Weapon and/or Jade Lightning early to early-mid game).
• Shudderwock Shaman (Chain Gang, lifesteal, or elemental tutor T4).
• As you mentioned, Baku & Genn decks T1.
• Azalina Togwaggle Druid (Potential T4 with melon or just look for them constantly drawing, moreso than Maly Druid).
• Elemental Minion Mage (Look for any elemental pretty much T1-3).
• Any murloc aggro deck (Murloc T1-2).
• Burn Mage (Just wait for Mana Wyrm, Kirin Tor Mage or another secret tutor. or Sorceror's Apprentice T1-3).
• Zoolock (If they don't tap repeatedly up until T4ish they are Zoo).

^ I could list more decks that are very easy to recognize early on, but you get the point. It really isn't that hard to recognize a more serious deck very early on in casual if you're looking for a fast concede so as to not waste as much time on the game. I would argue that it is actually slightly harder to differentiate between different types of ladder decks until later than it is determining if you're facing a meme vs a serious deck (e.g. Regular control lock vs Renolock vs Cubelock, or Aviana OTK (any variant) vs Togwaggle if they don't melon/draw early vs Maly Druid).

Quote from Kaladin >>

When I am being told to simply concede 45% of my games (or more), that 5 to 10 minutes adds up quickly.  Regularly (as in, I have 30 minutes in the morning that I play Hearthstone while eating breakfast before work), I have limited time to play.  3 games where I have to concede 4 or 5 minutes in is my entire play time.  

A meme-only mode wouldn't prevent you from say losing 1-3 games straight against another meme deck, thus wasting your morning to play the game anyway. What point are you trying to make here? Would a casual mode without ladder decks prevent somebody from feeling they 'had to' concede a bunch of games if they didn't want to face the meme druids, or meme pallies, or meme warlocks they were queuing into?

You dont get it.

I. DON'T. GIVE. A. FUCK. ABOUT. LOSING. GAMES.

I. DON'T. WANT. TO. PLAY. AGAINST. NETDECKS. IN. CASUAL.

Tonight, I can count on one hand how many non netdecks I've faced in ~4 hours of casual.  that is not okay.