Hearthpwn

Quote from 1xbenx1 >>

Argumentum ad populum is a fallacious argument

 Perhaps from a logical perspective that's true.  Blizzard's bottom line however is to keep the players happy.  If I am the only one who has a problem with the state of Casual, I will concede the point.  I suspect that there a many players who would like to see fewer netdecks there, however. 

Also....the fuck?  We're not arguing facts, we're talking about subjective opinion. 

Quote from AbusingKel >>

Quote from Velrun >>

Quote from AbusingKel >>

Quote from C_A_W >>

Those who whine about casual mode, are the same ones that whine about anything and everything in the game. 

I love the game, praise many of its aspects, and also criticize things that require criticism.  

One of those criticisms is the over-representation of Tier 1 & Tier 2 decks in casual. 

Still, there really doesn't seem to be a great solution that I've come up with or seen from others, despite the plethora of "Casual = Ladder" type threads (and there are lots of them, all the time). Ultimately, Team 5 is on record stating they never had any intention of making Casual a non-competitive play mode so it's never going to be anything more than it currently is. Sad, but true. 

You and I have absolutely 0 authority to decide what people should or shouldn’t and can and cannot play. Even in Casual.

To state the obvious: It is not called Casual because Tier 1-2 decks are forbidden but because there are no end-of-month-reward.

I understand we have no authority. I also understand I am not alone in thinking T1/2 netdecking in casual is pretty lame, as evidenced by the many, many, many threads just here on HPwn over the years. I would also say that it is not "obvious" that the name Casual derives from the lack of eom rewards. I think you've forgotten eom rewards came into play well after the inception of the game. Stars were the only differentiating factor in the eyes of Team 5. 

For me, the main grievance is simple: I have a large collection of cards that are unplayable and that is, in large part, due to the highly competitive decks in every game mode. A true "casual" mode that eliminated (or reduced, at least) the use of T1/2, optimized, competitive decks would make more of the collection playable. It would also make the game much less homogeneous since you'd have a better variety in casual, which would serve as the break from ladder many would like to see.

Two issues with that theory:

1. I played the game loooong before it was released to the public so I obviously remember Casual before it came to what we have now BUT what we have now is the topic of discussion. Not Casual of the past. The difference between Ranked and Casual is now only(!) the rewards at the end of the month.

Which brings me to issue number two.

2. Casual is still ranked in that regard that it matches you against someone of equal win-rate which means if you win a lot then you will climb the invisible ladder. So if someone faces 45 % Tier 1 decks on the Casual ladder then they are obviously winning ‘a lot’ and not losing all the time. To experiment: Try to take your deck onto the Casual ladder and concede the first 25 games. Then start playing. What do you see? Yes that is right; tons of Mages with Bloodfen Raptors.

In Casual you will only ever have 50 % win-rate. Just like in Ranked. Give or take a few %.

You aren’t the only one.  People who netdeck 100% meta decks in casual are truely cowards.  Testing a deck is false, as ladder is where you go to see if it holds up. “Just want to play a tryhard deck for fun” is a load of shit.  Those who defend its current state have no sense.

 I love your idea of either taking gold away or adding filters like bans.  SO EASY to implement. No one loses out.  If you want to play a specific opponent, why not? If no one queues into a match since you are so specific, that’s  your loss, and no one else is affected.

Quote from Velrun >>

Quote from AbusingKel >>

Quote from Velrun >>

Quote from AbusingKel >>

Quote from C_A_W >>

Those who whine about casual mode, are the same ones that whine about anything and everything in the game. 

I love the game, praise many of its aspects, and also criticize things that require criticism.  

One of those criticisms is the over-representation of Tier 1 & Tier 2 decks in casual. 

Still, there really doesn't seem to be a great solution that I've come up with or seen from others, despite the plethora of "Casual = Ladder" type threads (and there are lots of them, all the time). Ultimately, Team 5 is on record stating they never had any intention of making Casual a non-competitive play mode so it's never going to be anything more than it currently is. Sad, but true. 

You and I have absolutely 0 authority to decide what people should or shouldn’t and can and cannot play. Even in Casual.

To state the obvious: It is not called Casual because Tier 1-2 decks are forbidden but because there are no end-of-month-reward.

I understand we have no authority. I also understand I am not alone in thinking T1/2 netdecking in casual is pretty lame, as evidenced by the many, many, many threads just here on HPwn over the years. I would also say that it is not "obvious" that the name Casual derives from the lack of eom rewards. I think you've forgotten eom rewards came into play well after the inception of the game. Stars were the only differentiating factor in the eyes of Team 5. 

For me, the main grievance is simple: I have a large collection of cards that are unplayable and that is, in large part, due to the highly competitive decks in every game mode. A true "casual" mode that eliminated (or reduced, at least) the use of T1/2, optimized, competitive decks would make more of the collection playable. It would also make the game much less homogeneous since you'd have a better variety in casual, which would serve as the break from ladder many would like to see.

Two issues with that theory:

1. I played the game loooong before it was released to the public so I obviously remember Casual before it came to what we have now BUT what we have now is the topic of discussion. Not Casual of the past. The difference between Ranked and Casual is now only(!) the rewards at the end of the month.

Which brings me to issue number two.

2. Casual is still ranked in that regard that it matches you against someone of equal win-rate which means if you win a lot then you will climb the invisible ladder. So if someone faces 45 % Tier 1 decks on the Casual ladder then they are obviously winning ‘a lot’ and not losing all the time. To experiment: Try to take your deck onto the Casual ladder and concede the first 25 games. Then start playing. What do you see? Yes that is right; tons of Mages with Bloodfen Raptors.

In Casual you will only ever have 50 % win-rate. Just like in Ranked. Give or take a few %.

 Explain how I lost nearly 30 in a row in Casual last night yet still queued into netdecks. 

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from 1xbenx1 >>

Lyra already did it for me.

Lyra's argument was to refute something that wasn't even my main point.  It's not that sometimes meme decks can beat netdecks (and yes, I do enjoy the occasional foray into ladder with meme decks to tear up low ranks/floors).  It's that netdecks have a dedicated format already, non netdecks do not, and (IMO) 45% of games of casual being netdecks is too high. 

edit: Let me ask it again - those of you defending the current state of casual - what are you afraid of if there are changes made?  What quality are you clinging to that you don't want to go away? 

Non-tier decks/non-net decks still have casual as its primary game mode. The problem is that most of the decks, while fun imo, are weak decks. That is a big reason why so many tier decks are in casual, aside from the fun players derive from playing them as well as gold made by taking tier decks there. Original and/or memey decks have casual, but still allow tier decks, just like how ranked targets tier decks firsthand while still allowing meme decks.

Having a primary audience for a game mode does not equate into it being the only audience allowed to play in such mode. Overlap is bound to happen on both ends. Trying to mess with that will merely create all sorts of self-limiting restrictions for all types of players. Sometimes you wan to play a fun deck without having to leave ranked play, while other times you want to play a consistent deck without having to stress over whether or not you are going to end that game with more stars or fewer of them. 

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from 1xbenx1 >>

This isn't 1998 anymore. We need to stop complaining about netdecking and just accept that it will always happen and there's literally nothing to be done about it.

The answer, such that any exists, is to play with friends.

 To accept the problem is to admit the problem exists.  

There is no point in trying to prevent net decking. You can't prevent players from communicating with each other to share ideas (I'm not even sure why you'd want that tbh) and you aren't going to DDOS the global network any time soon. I agree with 1xbenx1 that this specific part of your complaint is beyond outdated and a moot point to argue.

Quote from Lyra_Silvertongue >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from 1xbenx1 >>

Lyra already did it for me.

Lyra's argument was to refute something that wasn't even my main point.  It's not that sometimes meme decks can beat netdecks (and yes, I do enjoy the occasional foray into ladder with meme decks to tear up low ranks/floors).  It's that netdecks have a dedicated format already, non netdecks do not, and (IMO) 45% of games of casual being netdecks is too high. 

edit: Let me ask it again - those of you defending the current state of casual - what are you afraid of if there are changes made?  What quality are you clinging to that you don't want to go away? 

Non-tier decks/non-net decks still have casual as its primary game mode. The problem is that most of the decks, while fun imo, are weak decks. That is a big reason why so many tier decks are in casual, aside from the fun players derive from playing them as well as gold made by taking tier decks there. Original and/or memey decks have casual, but still allow tier decks, just like how ranked targets tier decks firsthand while still allowing meme decks.

Having a primary audience for a game mode does not equate into it being the only audience allowed to play in such mode. Overlap is bound to happen on both ends. Trying to mess with that will merely create all sorts of self-limiting restrictions for all types of players. Sometimes you wan to play a fun deck without having to leave ranked play, while other times you want to play a consistent deck without having to stress over whether or not you are going to end that game with more stars or fewer of them. 

 Sure, and I'm not under some delusion that we'll one day eliminate netdecks entirely from a truly casual mode....but 45% is unacceptably high.  

Idk how they'd fix casual without overhauling it and make it a different game mode or make some weird rules to deter net deckers and give better rewards for Ranked so that there is more insensitiv for even players on a budget to play the mode. Of course there will always be people who have ladder anxiety but it could help weed out the numbers.

A rule for Casual could be that you can't copy a deck and have to make a new one before entering a game like some Tavern Brawls that require to build a deck from scratch. 

This is what I've been complaining for myself when I get tired of Ranked and try out a few casual games since i adapted to Hearthstone as a meme player. I've read all of the posts in this thread because i've wanted to see what people think about this issue. I think Kaladin is right about the high amount of T1/2 netdecks in casual mode being a problem. Personally I get bored a lot when I play against same cards and decks for a while, that's why I go for the casual. I'm all about fun/quirky stuff when i beat or get beaten by my opponents. I didn't enjoy getting rekt by Undertaker Hunter in Naxx, I don't enjoy losing to zoolock right now for the %70 of my time I spent in Casual. 

On the other hand, the defendants against this issue have some correct arguments aswell(especially Lyra). Majority of the player base prefers winning more than trying out new stuff/getting memey. And choosing that point of view isn't wrong. People who want to finish their quest without losing their rank in Ranked or changing 1-2 cards from a T1 deck and trying in the Casual is not wrong either. It's all about the majority of the player base's opinion about the game. In time I've accepted this. When I see Mana Wyrm on turn 1 against mage or something like that, i concede and move on. That doesn't mean I enjoy it though, it makes me feel bad which is ironic since I'm playing a game. When I put this thought in general, people like me and Kaladin will lose their interest in Hearthstone which means losing money in time(neglect the amount). 

TLDR: I don't like seeing too much T1/2 netdecks in Casual, makes me want to quit the game from time to time. But I've accepted it since there's no proper solution for the issue.

P.S. I can't imagine the beginner players' point of view, If there's one who read the thread I would appreciate their comments too.

what's wrong with casual - everything.

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from Lyra_Silvertongue >>

..Argument..

 The issue is not what Blizzard intended Casual to be; the issue is the playerbase (at least expressed here on Hearthpwn) is unhappy with what it's turned out to be.  The very same argument could have been made back in the "9 deckslots" days.  "Well Blizzard never intended there to be more than 9 deckslots.  You shouldn't need more than 9 anyways, so just deal with it and quit crying."   Instead, Blizzard adapted to the unhappy playerbase.  Same thing here.

Quote from Lyra_Silvertongue >

 Oh no. No no no :) That is not what happened.

Before Standard was introduced into Hearthstone we had Wild. A format that was the only format. All cards was included and every new expansion would introduce new cards into Wild. And we had 9 deck slots because Blizzard wanted us to have 9 deck slots for that format.

Then came Standard. And with it a new need for more deck slots = 9 for each format. Just like before. And Blizzard worked on it until they got it right and they gave us 9 deck slots for each format just like before.

Quote from Kaladin >>

what's wrong with casual - everything.

 I remember someone saying something like:

All misery starts with Peoples wishes, needs etc.

Its human wanting to win, so even non competitive modes gets people tryharding ( because why would you play your fun deck in the first place? You wanna win, eventually. That’s part of the fun right? To create something new and wacky,and maybe be successful. That’s also how ppl invent stuff right? ) 

To sum it up, there is nothing wrong with casual, but if their crafting doesn’t work there will always be people complaining about whatever ( netdecking,rng etc) . 

All you want is a NEW game mode with 0 gold involved.

No need to twist an existing game mode you dislike, generating side-effects for the majority of players that use it every day with no problems (including no problems at pushing *concede* whenever they want).

Quote from RavenSunHP >>

All you want is a NEW game mode with 0 gold involved.

No need to twist an existing game mode you dislike, generating side-effects for the majority of players that use it every day with no problems (including no problems at pushing *concede* whenever they want).

 Well what would you call that game mode? I can't see Team 5 doing this, they are very strict on what they add to the U.I. and extra constructed format which is mechanically the same as an existing one seems highly unlikely.

Casual has rewards purely because of all the folks with ladder anxiety, I can see no other reason for it. It's true that the mode would actually be a lot more varied if there were no rewards, but I think Team 5 try to cater to as wide a demographic as possible.

The people who think that removing quests or gold will have any impact are simply naive to human nature.  Some people just play to upset you - for them, your grief is the victory.  There will never be a constructed format without netdecks and a 'best' deck, regardless of what limits, conditions, or rules are imposed - as soon as you can choose what cards to put in, people will 'look up' what is the best.  I think a sealed league is the only possible constructed where this doesn't occur, but that has its own issues.

Ladder anxiety?

Why people don't play their Memes in Ladder? Aren't they taken by ladder anxiety as well? Cowards?

Ofc not. People simply want to win, and smoothly. Everyone, including Meme players (who accuse others of being cowards...). 

Problem is that Meme-ish players winning smoothly requires a dedicated game mode. Casual has never been, is not, and cannot be that mode - because it is already something else.

Is Casual the trashbin of HS? Maybe, but everyone have adapted their game experience to it: you cannot change it to benefit a minority of the playerbase, at the expense of everyone else.

Quote from Xynot >>

The people who think that removing quests or gold will have any impact are simply naive to human nature.  Some people just play to upset you - for them, your grief is the victory.  There will never be a constructed format without netdecks and a 'best' deck, regardless of what limits, conditions, or rules are imposed - as soon as you can choose what cards to put in, people will 'look up' what is the best.  I think a sealed league is the only possible constructed where this doesn't occur, but that has its own issues.

 If the incentive to win is taken away i.e. ranks/gold then of course you will have much less reason to go into this format with high tier decks. Sure, there are those who "just play to grief" but that should be a very small portion, since there are almost 0 mechanics that can allow for such behaviour. The most griefing you can do is rope or spam emotes and tbh both of those things are extremely rare in 5 years of playing HS.

Let me ask it again because it has yet to be answered:

Those of you who are defending any change to casual - why?  What quality/qualities are you afraid of losing?  What exactly are you defending?

Quote from Kaladin >>

Let me ask it again because it has yet to be answered:

Those of you who are defending any change to casual - why?  What quality/qualities are you afraid of losing?  What exactly are you defending?

 Pretty simple: don't change something that works - because there would be side effects.

I am defending current Casual because i strive for have a vision that is not based only on my individual point of view: Casual is the mode for ANY player.

You are not asking for an improvement. You are asking for some changes (with side effects) based on your own conception of the mode, which is different from what that game mode actually is.

Unless we find changes with no side effects ofc. It may be possible. 0 gold is not one such change tho.

Quote from RavenSunHP >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

Let me ask it again because it has yet to be answered:

Those of you who are defending any change to casual - why?  What quality/qualities are you afraid of losing?  What exactly are you defending?

 Pretty simple: don't change something that works - because there would be side effects.

I am defending current Casual because i strive for have a vision that is not based only on my individual point of view: Casual is the mode for ANY player.

You are not asking for an improvement. You are asking for some changes (with side effects) based on your own conception of the mode, which is different from what that game mode actually is.

Unless we find changes with no side effects ofc. It may be possible. 0 gold is not one such change tho.

 

 Clearly it's not working (unless, again, I am literally the only person who is unhappy with the high prevalence of ladder decks, but I don't think I am). 

I am asking for improvement to address the things we're not happy with.  What downside do you fear even if these changes were made to Casual and not implemented in a new mode instead? 

Surely you are not the only one. I also understand your reasons, it's just that it is not how Casual is generally used (or we wouldn't be here talking of this), hence it is a dangerous change.

0 gold for example prevents most players from questing safely, while laddering normally. 3/3 Farming is secondary, yet it is a relevant portion of income for many players, on the long run, ie new players. Possibly there are more side effects i cannot see.

On the other hand, the only current issue in Casual is pressing the concede button and waiting for a reload, whenever you don't like a matchup. Annoying, but still better than twisting an important portion of gametime for the rest of the players.