Hearthpwn

Quote from Kwakdizzle >>

The upcoming patch that changes how copying cards work mean that warrior can tech against shudderwock shaman with azalina soulthief. The idea is to steal a 1 cost shudderwock, and your battlecries with gain you more armour per shudderwock than they can deal per shudderwock.

Others have mentioned warlock has a tech option now, although it's a pretty mediorce one, but alas, if you want a tech and you play warlock, there it is.

For other control classes (e.g. BSM), yeah, the matchup is still going to be hell for the next few months unless shudderwock really turns out to suck in the new meta.

 I'm not getting how Azalina counters SW. They can go to infinite plays and you can copy their hand just once.

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

It's because the majority of players are noobs with small collections who mainly pilot cheap aggro decks.  Guess what dude paladin is good at?  Smashing other aggro decks.  That's why the win % is skewed towards it.

It's easily countered by many decks.  The same can not be said for shudderwock.

Zoolock is a better aggro deck imo and 1 of the only other ones that can deal with paladins 1-1 spam with the 5 mana demon and/or early keleseth or the free 3-3's.  It's also generally better against other decks that try to counter aggro.

 

Honest question:

How do we measure the 'good' decks?

If we cannot use win % and if we cannot use tournament statistics, then how do we do it, mathematically?

Feelings and experiences don't matter. We want hard data.

We dont need Dirty rat, it would be useless with all these combo cards. We would actually need a card saying , "destroy all cards with combo".

If not the new expansion will be about who draw their combo first.

OP:
Are you really pretenting that should exist a card to counter shudderwock?
What about druid? Malygos/Towaggle?
Lol shudderwock sometimes lose by himself, is a tier 2 deck.

Quote from Velrun >>

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

It's because the majority of players are noobs with small collections who mainly pilot cheap aggro decks.  Guess what dude paladin is good at?  Smashing other aggro decks.  That's why the win % is skewed towards it.

It's easily countered by many decks.  The same can not be said for shudderwock.

Zoolock is a better aggro deck imo and 1 of the only other ones that can deal with paladins 1-1 spam with the 5 mana demon and/or early keleseth or the free 3-3's.  It's also generally better against other decks that try to counter aggro.

 

Honest question:

How do we measure the 'good' decks?

If we cannot use win % and if we cannot use tournament statistics, then how do we do it, mathematically?

Feelings and experiences don't matter. We want hard data.

Your copied sw uses azalinas bc to copy their sw again and again

Shudderwock decks aren't strong enough right now to warrant this kind of worry. I'm a bit worried about future battlecry cards printed in the future that might make it broken, though. But yeah, for now, I'd like to see some new iterations of Dirty Rat or Demonic Project that can disrupt combos

Quote from Rachel2206 >>

Your copied sw uses azalinas bc to copy their sw again and again

 Ah, exactly! :)

Don't care shudderwock not a problem. Any way they would probably just print a 5mana 2/2 destroy all shudderwocks like that crappy emp operative that kills mechs. I wish blizzard would stop printing garbage hate cards... I would have perferwd it if they made a 3mana 2/2 mechanical crab that gains 1/1. It would still be garbage but at least it would be funny

Quote from Billie_Lurk >>

Quote from MrShmoove >>

No it doesn't need a counter.  The counter is to either mill or burn before them down before they can pull off the combo.  L2P.

 Are you intentionally trying to be a trash poster? What can mill them in standard and how can control burn them down. I'm looking for a viable answer for EVERY class, that way I don't run into near unwinnable match ups any more when I decide to play a control deck. If you can't name them, then stfu.

 Every class isn't supposed to have counters for every type of deck.  So again l2p and stfu.

Why do people keeping saying that Shudderwock decks are Tier 2 or 3?  I always lose against them, no matter what deck I am playing, either in Wild or in Standard. 

No, wait, in Wild I once pulled out Shudderwock with Dirty Rat, and I did win that time.  

But... There will always be the Lich King!

so in my opinion the counter to shudderwock is to play decks that beat it before it wins, which it looks like every class can do in this next expansion (The ones we were missing were warrior, mage, and druid; warrior might be able to make a tempo deck with mechs and rush, mage got stuff great for tempo, and druid got more ramp making all of its decks faster. Priest had some combo decks that won faster that saw some play already so it could do it anyway if you were thinking priest could not, also as much as it is a meme aggro priest totally destroyed shudderwock in my experience of playing like 50 games of aggro priest.)

I am genuinely not worried about shudderwock because I actually was fine with its place in the meta. It was fun for me to play with and against after both the speeding up of the animation and the nerf that made the deck actually viable in the meta. I also feel like if you want to complain about not having counters to combo decks, worry about malygos decks more. Or maybe Mecha'thun (It is a meme but it may be a real thing someday). Or you can worry about abombination hadronox druid (I frickin love this deck btw). Or maybe just exodia mage. Like why complain specifically about shudderwock because it is the one that is good right now, and not even particularly toxic. 

Counters to combo might be nice, we have one for warlock to use in the next expansion, and it will probably see play because it might be able to give you something good if used right while ruining your opponents plan if you are lucky (though luck is major with that card). Anyway I am basically certain that there won't be any more counters of the single card variety to combo decks this expansion, but instead we have counters in the form of decks that win first or make the combo too unweildy, or in the form of removing the druid weapon because that is the combo to fear anyway not shudderwock. 

Rejoice in the fact that there are ways to beat decks by playing other decks, and stop worrying about how we don't have a single card that fixes everything. I don't want a single card that fixes everything, that makes the game feel dumb. I want a way to win any matchup in any class by making a specific deck in that class that wins the matchup.  I want most of those decks to be bad because having that many good decks is chaos and makes it impossible to make a deck of your own that has any chance of doing well. Finally, I want druid to get nerfed because I hate what I feel like it will become and it will limit my first want by making decks that are very hard to beat.

Consider this as an option:

also, after the recent changes Azalina Soulthief now copies cost reduction. If you are playing Warrior and have played Drywhisker Armorer and Cornered Sentrybefore. You just need to wait until they play Shudder, then copy their hand, giving you a 1-mana Shudderwock (unless they failed their combo, in which case you just need to clear the board and wait for them to die of fatigue), then play said SHudderwock, which will gain you huge amounts of armor throughthe aforementioned cards and ALSO use Azalina's effect to give you ANOTHER 1-mana Shudder. You can do Azalina + Shudder 3 times. this should give you enough armor to survive their next turn, at which point you just repeat Shudder 10 times and simply outarmor them, while they probably clear their own board because of Hagatha's battlecry.

Or you just hit them in the face until they die.

I've played a fair amount of Shudderwock.  I love the deck.  But, if you hate it may I suggest Recruit Hunter.  That thing if piloted decently just destroys me.  A well piloted Cubelock does the same.  Tempo Rogue and pally can burn it down.  If you draw bad odd lock is a challenge.

Honestly, there aren't that many matchups that are that good for Shudderwock.  I don't understand all the hate.

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

Your theorycraft decks are not going to work.  The warlock deck is interesting but keening banshee is unplayable, you can't risk burning any of the mechs or the bloodbloom or cata.  That's 5 cards needs in hand before you can even risk playing it.  Can't play Hemet for the same reasons so it's just too slow.

The warrior deck also has to survive 12 shaman shudders, 2 on the initial turn then 10 the turn after.  Your armor gain is going to be completely unreliable dependig on order of battlecrys and also means you cant play 4 mana weapon for fear of killing the 1-1's with the BC.  It also has to be able to beat other decks.

I don't think either is likely.

 Keening Banshee is a back up once you draw all the pieces to empty your deck fast. Of course you don't play it before that. If Malgyos Druid is a tier 1 deck at legend then how the fuck is a deck that can draw cards each turn and only needs 5 combo pieces to WIN THE GAME not going to work. You're trying to tell me this on a thread about SHUDDERWOCK, the deck that needs to basically draw it's entire deck AND play all the combo pieces while still retaining a small chance of failling the battlecry order and being left stranded, yet an Exodia deck with plenty of control options, not unlike the old Quest Mage, is just not reasonable?

Warrior needs to survive exactly  2 Shudders which is usually at most 12 damage. (unless they prioritized Lifedrinkers with their bounces instead of Saronites) The moment they play their Shudder while you have Azalina in hand they lose. No ifs or buts. They just can't beat the armor. The Battlecry doesn't need to be reliable, because you're doing it at least 3 times the first time and your opponent likely has at leasst a couple minions on the board after Shudder. I didn#t come up with this combo, pro players did.

Quote from MojoJojo21619 >>

Aggro does not counter shudderwock.  It has some of the best control tools in the game.  It is a high tier 1 deck.  I would say the best deck in the game overall atm.  Average win rates mean nothing.  It's not an easy deck to play to a high standard.

Dude paladin has the highest average win rate in the game yet it's an easily countered aggro deck, not even the best aggro deck imo.  Average win rates are no indication of power level.  It just means more noobs can pilot the deck better.

 

 Posts like this are exactly why Blizzard takes very little inspiration from the community on the subject of game balance.

Shudderwock is allowed to exist for a specific reason.  Imagine for a moment the current meta without the Wock deck.  I'm not saying I can get all the details of that hypothetical perfectly correct, but in broad strokes there would be a set of decks that can reliably shut down aggro, and a few would have black and white dominant advantages over others of that group.  Off the top of my head, quest warrior would be everywhere since they can reliably survive rush AND destroy Maly druid by putting their armor totals out of reach of the Malygos charged damage combo.

Shudderwock serves the purpose of discouraging decks that play prevent defense forever and win on a single condition.  It is simply a fact that volcano, storm, and pyromancer cannot fight off most of the heavy aggro a reliable amount of the time.  If you choose to play a deck that takes forever to win, you must accept that this deck will have an incredible win rate against you.  I like big spell mage as much as the next guy, but if that's your choice, accept the consequences.

I have six decks that have 20 games each against the Wock and are at 12-8 or better.  One of them is hard aggro, five of them are not.  The fact that Shudderwock has a dominant win rate against the controlliest of control decks is not a problem that deserves a geist-like hard counter.

Speaking of Geist, I have a hard time believing that anyone who was around a year or so ago can argue with a straight face that we've reached a jade druid-esque state where a card needs to be printed as a countermeasure.

Overcompensating Geist:  7 mana , 5/8 creature, "Battlecry:  Destroy all 9 mana cards in both decks"

Hey on second thought . . . Oakheart and Malygos are 9 mana . . . might have something there.

For the record, I agree with mojo that Mecha'thun is not the answer.

It's the hero we deserve . . . not the one we need, if you will

Upon further reflection, I'm all on board with the following:

(changed it a bit)

Overcompensating Geistatron:  "mech"  10 mana, 1/1 creature, "Battlecry:  Remove all 9 mana cards from both players' decks"

If you're going to make a hard counter, make it a hard hard sell.  10 mana 1/1 creature basically means it is a "I concede" card to play against anything but what it targets.  It can nail Malygos, Wock, and Hadranox if she hasn't been played already, but is a functional dead draw against anything else.

I always hated the way Skulking Geist was semi-useful against decks other than the inner fire and jade.  If you're going to print such a specific card, make it hurt to play against anything else.