Hearthpwn

Quote from 1xbenx1 >>

Quote from Helweek >>

 I want to call the above comment out as unhelpful. 

 

I'll call you out as merely disagreeing with me but calling it unhelpful. He's flat out wrong about arena.

 Your arena comment may have been the least helpful. I didnt say you were wrong. The OP is a new player who does not understand arena, which shouldnt be grounds for attack.

Arena is my favorite game mode and it is glaringly obvious that most players dont understand arena. Team 5 dosent even understand arena.

Arena is the best mode for new players, but you have to put the time in, and be ok with losing. That is why playing on multiple accounts is so important, but this is not obvious.

Quote from jonnyloco86 >>

I started playing Hearthstone shortly after BRM was released, and until today the only money invested was for the welcome bundle, so i consider myself F2P, while having a great collection.

Back then it was an awful experience going to the ranked mode and facing cards that were simply better than everything you had in your collection.
Keep in mind, to this time there were only Classic,Naxx,GvG and BRM out, so the overall cardpool was kind of small compared to today, and in purchasing the adventures you just had to spend your gold (or money) on classic and gvg packs.

There are a lot of people claiming this game is pay2win, and while there is SOME truth in it, its not the entire truth.
The truth is, that money equals time.
If you have enough time play the game, you can negate the money factor, although its much more economically (at least in most parts of the world) to just spent your salary for cards.

I wouldnt recommend anyone to start with this game right now, if he is a)f2p AND b) wants to play competitive in a near future.....

 ....but if you like to grind there is potentially a way to get a decent collection, play Arena!

Your goal should be to become an arena infinite. Its a hard learning curve though!
 - If you can get there, you will have a basicially free supply of packs. Your skill and time investment determine how many packs you can aquire.
- I am convinced that learning hearthstone the arena route is much better than doing it in constructed. There are more cards you are  confronted with, lots of "on the fly" decisions cause you dont know what your opponent has in the deck. You just will be a more versatile player after the "school of arena"
- Every game is different. While the arena meta can be somewhat stale (especially while having not much cards in the rotation), you wont face the same deck twice.
- Your collection doesnt matter at all . You and your opponent have equal chances to draft a good or bad deck. On top of it you can potentially play with cards you dont own yourself.

Try Heartharena or some other draft tool. While its great for experienced players, its a must have for beginners.
Also in can be VERY beneficial for your game to watch some good arena players stream on twitch.

If you want to play constructed, try to somehow accumulate dust to build 1 or 2 meta decks you enjoy playing. Dont play wild yet, concentrate on standard first.
 - dust useless cards
 - dust golden cards you dont need
- finish the hidden quests if not already done and try to squeeze out every extra pack you can somehow get (tavern brawl, promotion packs)

The matchmaking system isnt the greatest, and since this game is 4 years old, there are loads of players with decent collections who just doesnt play very often and therefore hanging around at those ranks, but matchmaking shouldnt ever consider your collection value.
While its frustrating to lose, it can be very satisfying beating those opponents with weaker decks because you just managed to outplay them. Often hard though...

if there are grammar/spelling mistakes or some sentences are misunderstanding,please be aware that english isnt my first language

 I'd go as far as saying just dust all golden cards as you don't "need" any of them. If I get a golden legendary I almost instantly dust it as it's a legendary of choice in return. Same goes for any golden card really. I don't have any other than the ones you cannot dust. 

Thanks for the advice on arena though. I have never played arena really and I wasn't aware it was a good way to earn cards. It makes sense though now why I'd heard in the past that I could "earn back legendaries I'd D/E'd and later regretted it by playing arena" though.

Do you earn actual cards as well as packs, or just packs?

The fact that no player has an advantage based on their collection and it's all based on skill though is appealing, especially since there's a new expansion out soon and I probably won't be able to pre order it. 

Thanks for posting OP. I've been playing since the original release, and I'm sure I'd be frustrated just starting out now. I would try to find a low cost deck or decks for standard that look like fun to you, as others have suggested. That's probably going to be the easiest way to start out.


I agree with other posters that arena is a great way to build your collection without spending a lot of money, but it's hard to get over the initial learning curve. I would try heartharena.com and use their drafting tool, like others have suggested. But that's still just telling you what's good in a vacuum, and you'll still need to learn from experience.

I wonder if something like a "deck of the week" would help new players. Maybe once you hit rank 20, you can choose to play a pre-made "deck of the week" that is provided for you, just for that week, in order to have a competitive deck. You never actually keep the cards in that deck, but you can use the deck that week. And the deck would rotate every week, so if you wanted to keep playing it, you'd have to craft it yourself. Maybe rotate some decks that are competitive and fun, but not top tier. Gives the new player some variety, without getting stomped on every game.

[Edit: Corrected to "heartharena.com," I accidentally listed ".net"]

I see your situation. I always thought that getting duplicates of cards was largely unnecessary and a cash grab if new players aren't aware what Blizzard is selling us. We want the collection. We don't want dust. There should be an option to complete the set without having to buy endless packs. You should be able to get the whole set from the preorder alone. What's the point of needless RNG in opening packs only to realize your money spent doesn't get you the whole set, instead dozens of duplicates? It's a feels bad moment to put money in and not even get the card you need. 

Quote from SniperWolf >>

I see your situation. I always thought that getting duplicates of cards was largely unnecessary and a cash grab if new players aren't aware what Blizzard is selling us. We want the collection. We don't want dust. There should be an option to complete the set without having to buy endless packs. You should be able to get the whole set from the preorder alone. What's the point of needless RNG in opening packs only to realize your money spent doesn't get you the whole set, instead dozens of duplicates? It's a feels bad moment to put money in and not even get the card you need. 

 STRONGLY disagree.  Pack opening is one of the coolest things about CCG.  Eliminating it or eliminating the coolness factor of FINALLY opening that card you've been chasing would turn A LOT of people off of the game.  I know I never would have gotten into HS without pack opening RNG.

Quote from hugelycat >>

Thanks for posting OP. I've been playing since the original release, and I'm sure I'd be frustrated just starting out now. I would try to find a low cost deck or decks for standard that look like fun to you, as others have suggested. That's probably going to be the easiest way to start out.


I agree with other posters that arena is a great way to build your collection without spending a lot of money, but it's hard to get over the initial learning curve. I would try heartharena.net and use their drafting tool, like others have suggested. But that's still just telling you what's good in a vacuum, and you'll still need to learn from experience.

I wonder if something like a "deck of the week" would help new players. Maybe once you hit rank 20, you can choose to play a pre-made "deck of the week" that is provided for you, just for that week, in order to have a competitive deck. You never actually keep the cards in that deck, but you can use the deck that week. And the deck would rotate every week, so if you wanted to keep playing it, you'd have to craft it yourself. Maybe rotate some decks that are competitive and fun, but not top tier. Gives the new player some variety, without getting stomped on every game.

 is a drafting tool an actual add on or something? this sounds awesome if this is the case? ha ha. 

I'd like to start playing arena, but the learning curve is quite off putting as the chances are I won't have a clue what cards are gonna pop up, what half of them do and trying to build a synergy at the same time between random cards is daunting. 

I guess it will be sort of like the new single player modes though? I've gotten to the last round of K&C but couldn't beat togglewaggle, not played a ton of it though, just enough for my free packs. 

I've played since Beta, but I created a second account a year or so ago.  I play the bare minimum on it, but I can tell you as a new player it's really not fun at all.  You're basically stuck playing standard casual.  Yes, there's arena but unless you can spend the time to get good at arena (a tall order for someone fresh to the game), it's going to be just as frustrating.  Creating any deck of power is near impossible without dumping money, or unless you want to play a budget aggro deck which to many isn't how they want to play.

Blizz did a good thing with the new ranked changes (only losing 4 levels at the end of the month), which helps as before 70% of the player base would start at rank 20 or less each month.  You definitely see less tier 1 decks now, but you still do.  Mainly by players who have a good deck but are bad, which only makes it frustrating because you /should/ be beating the bad players, but not unless you have a strong deck.

Thankfully I have a main account that's strong, so it doesn't bother me, but I can really see life being tough for the new players.  Blizz expanding the levels before 20 to 30 or so would help.

One thing I can say to the OP is play more at the end of the month, when players with better decks have moved up.  And don't focus on ranked play much.  The end-of-month rewards aren't worth the pain and frustration that it would take to get there, at least not until you have a strong deck.  Just try to enjoy the game casually.

Quote from JaggedCore >>

I added a comment to a deck thread in response to someone who said something like "I can't imagine what it's like to be a new player now". I can't speak for all new players, but I thought some of you old pros at the game might be interested in seeing how at least this new player feels about the game, so I'm reposting my comment here.

As a "new player" (I started playing 2 months ago), I can't compare starting now to starting years ago. But I can share my experience and thoughts. 

To begin with, I just plain don't play Wild. I guess I might in the future, but I started playing after Witchwood was already out - so I don't have any Wild cards to play with right now, and I just get obliterated in that format.

I also don't buy packs. I bought 10 packs for $7.99 or something a few weeks ago, when there was a sale. My collection didn't really improve in a noticeable way. I guess I got a few gold cards, which are neat, but it doesn't improve my win rate. I know I could have gotten lucky with some legendaries, but the cards I actually got weren't worth having paid for, so I won't do it again.

Which leads to my first complaint. The game punishes you for having a limited collection, which isn't great for new players. By playing enough matches, I've been able to get to rank 20, but it's definitely not because I've got good decks. As soon as I can start losing stars, I get stuck. My best deck is about 50% win rate, so if I get really lucky with RNG, I can get to 19. Being rewarded a common and 5-10 dust isn't much incentive to keep banging my head against the wall.

Arena punishes new players in a different way, although I am more accepting of this - not having experience with the cards, knowing how arena is likely to present me options, not knowing various synergies, etc, puts me on shaky ground from the start. I often end up with cards that have no value (give this card a bonus if you have a weapon, and my deck has no weapons ... stuff like this happens to me all the time). I'm lucky to get 3 wins in arena, which means it's basically a losing proposition for me. I might get lucky and get a second card pack, or a rare card I don't have, but I usually end up realizing I'd have been better off just buying a card pack. But it's pretty much the only way I can get dust, even if it is a tiny amount per run.

I'm not willing to pour money into the game to "catch up". I can't accumulate dust in volume enough to improve my collection. My only real source of gold is daily quests, which basically amounts to a couple decks per week. If I'm lucky, one will be a useful card I didn't already have, and half a dozen more will build the collection in a mostly useless way (second copies of cards I don't use anyway). I've been able to get enough dust together to buy a 3 or 4 useful cards, but legendaries are out of reach for me. It feels really difficult to build a collection that opens options up to me.

And that brings me to my biggest complaint - the matching system for ranked play. It pairs me with people who are the same "rank" as me, as if rank has some value as an indicator of how fair the matchup is. I've gotten to the point that I just concede as soon as a game starts where someone has what I call "cheat cards" - Genn Greymane or Baku the Mooneater. They feel like cheats to me because I don't have them, I'm not likely to get them anytime soon, and they make the playing field very un-level. Those aren't the only cards, though - there are tons of good cards that I don't have that just change the momentum of the match when they come out. To be clear, I don't feel like the other player is cheating - I feel like the game is cheating me by putting me in a clearly unfair matchup. If the "dust cost" of my collection is 20,000, and my opponent's collection has a "dust cost" of 4,000,000, it doesn't matter that we have the same rank, because that person has a significant advantage. I can't explain why, but there seem to be a lot of players with good collections hanging out at rank 20, feeding on newbs like myself.

The most fun I have is the solo adventures, but I'm at a point with those that I've done pretty much whatever I expect to be able to complete, and what I have left seems like a brick wall. I played M:TG for a decade or so. After 2 months, I've already been thinking about quitting playing Hearthstone because it's not fun just as often as it is fun, not because of the outcome of games, but because of how the game basically serves new players up to experienced players on a platter. 

 One point to make is that, yes a big collection is an advantage, but once you build up a good deck, it doesn’t matter how much of a collection they have as they can only bring 30 cards to a game. 

Yeah, versatility is useful and all, but your focus should be in building one deck to start with not breadth. That may mean disenchantig cards (DE any golden commons as you gain dust even if you recraft them and other Goldens you aren’t using to craft other cards of the same rarity to start with) to get it. Once you have that competitive deck you can compete on ladder, you will just get beat up if you encounter a bad meta. But it can facilitate building a second deck and at low ranks even disadvantaged decks have a decent shot. 

The reason you see a lot of good decks at low ranks will be people dump everything into once competitive deck and others will pay a decent amount of money but only play a few matches a month. 

I think posts like this should be taken seriously but given little weight in their decision making.  

On one hand, yes the new player experience is very important.  If new players don't enjoy the game long enough to stick around, then Hearthstone IS on a clock, and will die when there are no new players and the existing players get bored.  

On the other hand, it's important to look at why the new player experience is bad and what can be done to change that perception without making grand changes to the system as a whole.  The OP has three complaints: (1) being punished for having a small collection (and very slow accumulation of gold/dust), (2) being punished in Arena for being unfamiliar with the cards, and (3) poor matchmaking, based on rank instead of collection size or account age or some other more fair factor.  

1. ToT quests were a great way to deal with this complain - I hope they continue them in the future or at least do them more frequently.  For once, it didn't feel like a complete grind to get gold/dust.  OP - did you feel better about your ability to acquire gold/dust in this period vs any other time?   Also addressing point #1, you might not be aware, but up until Rank 5, you don't need a 50% wr or better to climb, because of getting bonus stars for win streaks.  You can hit 5 with like a 45% wr if you keep playing.  
2. This is just something you'll get better at with practice.  I recommend watching Kripparian's Twitch stream or YT channel for learning when to trade/when to go face.  Also, there are a couple of free resources to help you draft better in Arena (heartharena.com and thelightforge.com/TierList for starters).  
3. The way that ranked works is that at the start of each month, players are set back 4 ranks from where they finished.  There are ranked floors at 15, 10, and 5, so if a player reaches that in the month, they cannot go below it.  At rank 20, this means that you will face players who finished the previous month no higher than rank 12 in the previous month.  Going on point 1, I would bet that even with a budget deck you could climb to rank 15 at worst.  

Quote from Kaladin >>

I think posts like this should be taken seriously but given little weight in their decision making.  

On one hand, yes the new player experience is very important.  If new players don't enjoy the game long enough to stick around, then Hearthstone IS on a clock, and will die when there are no new players and the existing players get bored.  

On the other hand, it's important to look at why the new player experience is bad and what can be done to change that perception without making grand changes to the system as a whole.  The OP has three complaints: (1) being punished for having a small collection (and very slow accumulation of gold/dust), (2) being punished in Arena for being unfamiliar with the cards, and (3) poor matchmaking, based on rank instead of collection size or account age or some other more fair factor.  

1. ToT quests were a great way to deal with this complain - I hope they continue them in the future or at least do them more frequently.  For once, it didn't feel like a complete grind to get gold/dust.  OP - did you feel better about your ability to acquire gold/dust in this period vs any other time?   Also addressing point #1, you might not be aware, but up until Rank 5, you don't need a 50% wr or better to climb, because of getting bonus stars for win streaks.  You can hit 5 with like a 45% wr if you keep playing.  
2. This is just something you'll get better at with practice.  I recommend watching Kripparian's Twitch stream or YT channel for learning when to trade/when to go face.  Also, there are a couple of free resources to help you draft better in Arena (heartharena.com and thelightforge.com/TierList for starters).  
3. The way that ranked works is that at the start of each month, players are set back 4 ranks from where they finished.  There are ranked floors at 15, 10, and 5, so if a player reaches that in the month, they cannot go below it.  At rank 20, this means that you will face players who finished the previous month no higher than rank 12 in the previous month.  Going on point 1, I would bet that even with a budget deck you could climb to rank 15 at worst.  

Dear OP

I can totally follow you and you argue in a very articulate fashion. I agree with you. I just want you to know one simple truth:

You said you were not going to spend money on the game. And if that is true, then you are playing a game for free. Everything you see, every little ‘Greetings’, every little window that gets crashed when you click on it enough times and every single card you play and face are for free. You did not contribute in any way.

You are what you could call dead weight. And the game and the company behind the game are actively trying to get rid of you (by making you pay for the game) so you turn into a person that the game can appreciate.

It is a simple truth. Not debatable. Even though it is not funny. However there is also a simple solution: Contribute so the rest of us are not the only ones paying for all future expansions.

I started during Naxx in 2014 and made a rule for myself only to buy adventures and otherwise be F2P.  Back when we started, Blizzard was far less generous (no ranked rewards, no ToT, free arena tickets, lower quest gold, tavern brawls, etc.)  Since then, I've spent roughly $65 (3 adventures + welcome bundle), or $16.25/year.  Other than the $5 welcome bundle, I've been F2P since mid-2016 and I don't foresee ever having to spend again. 

To put that into perspective, $16.25/year is like missing one pricey meal per year in order to go infinite. 

You don't need to commit a ton of time.  If you just play your daily quests (which have gotten far easier), you will earn roughly 8,000 gold in between expansions.  By buying 70-80 packs/expansion, you can basically go infinite.  You can craft anything else essential you need.

Honestly as a new player you have to come in with the mindset that as if Hearthstone is a physycal card game. If you want to play a certain deck, be prepaired to pay for the cards.

You can either type in your card choices at the hearth arena website, or you can download the Hearth Arena app for Overwolf, which creates an overlay in-game. You need to download Overwolf and run it at the same time you run Hearthstone for it to work. I'm not very familiar with the app personally (I just used the website), but both are worth a shot if you're interested in arena.

Arena is sort of like the single-player modes because you're drafting a deck, but you make the picks card-by-card, and you draft your entire 30-card deck before you play. You also usually don't get many legendary or epic cards. It's a lot of fun, but yeah, there is a bit of a learning curve. Also note that the classes in arena aren't perfectly balanced. For example, I've personally always felt like Mage was a good arena class because of all of their removal cards, but I've had more problems with warrior because a lot of their good removal is epic rarity, and you won't get to draft that much.

I don't like advising new players to play Arena. I was told to try Arena too when I started, and tried it once and didn't go back for awhile.

I'd more recommend watching streamers for whichever game more you are more interested in(Ranked or Arena) and go from there. I don't think basic decks are good enough today to get too far on ladder, but it is possible a zoo warlock or midrange hunter might do okay without too many expensive cards.

such a good idea... match people by relative experience.

I play on my Gf's account when I get bored.  She has a very naked collection but i'm still able to get her up there in ranks using mostly basic cards.  It is doable, but it does suck and takes some knowledge of what others are playing

My problem with the rank system isn't winning or losing, its the kind of DECKS being used at such a high rank.

I'm a wild player by nature, so naturally my wild rank will usually be a lot lower because I play and win there more.

Lately I hadn't been playing a lot in standard because I was sick of facine against the same handful of decks all the time. But this month I decided to give it a shot again to see what was going on for the standard meta,

Since I hand't played standard for a few months I went back up to rank 25. What was the first deck I played against? Odd Rogue. That's right, one of the top decks of today's meta being used at rank 25. Now luckily, I have the full collection. I knew what I was playing against the minute Baku appeared (Though I nearly literally bashed my head against a wall as I asked myself how is this fair?) and I put up a good fight against it because of it.

Whether I won or lost doesn't matter. What matters is...why am I playing against odd rogue at a newbie level? Sure, having played since blackrock it doesn't exactly make me a newb any more, but what if I had been?

All match all I thought to myself was "Boy, good thing I already have the collection, I feel REEEEEALLY bad for new players if this is the kind of crap smacking them in the face so early in their careers."

Case in point, how ARE new players who have nothing but basic cards in their collections for rank 25 supposed to climb when their facing against tier 1 meta decks? Guys like me are fin in the long run because we have actual experience. If I was a new player NOW and coming up against that crap in my first rank of rank play, I'd be quitting this damn game. 

Frankly, Blizzard needs a match making systems were high rank players can't use tier 1 or 2 decks, set limits to what decks they can use. That way it's not just returning vets to a meta farming wins off of newbies. not only that but more "non meta" decks like mine can actually have a chance to thrive until we hit the lower ranks. Once you hit those single digit ranks that's about when it should be safe for Blizzard to allow players access to full collection deck builds for their players.

I mean, if we put it in pokemon terms...do we really need level 100 Mewtwo's stomping on level 2 metapods at rank 25? Because that's what it feels like vets do to new players. It's not fair or fun when access to cards is so thin for new players. 

I still find it extremely strange that anyone would complain about the game "punishing" you for having a small collection. MTG, Pokemon, and Yugioh require you to have a sizable collection if you wish to be competitive in any form of play; why should Hearthstone be any different?

I'm the OP.

First, I want to thank you all for the many well-thought-out and helpful responses (well, most of you - some of you were just mean). I have read every single comment up to this point. I have some additional thoughts, and would spend hours responding to individual comments, so instead, I'll just write a single response here.

I want to point out something that I realize must not have been clear in my original post. This wasn't actually intended as a rant or complaint. It was really just a description of my experience as a new player. I don't expect to be able to climb the ladder to legend as a new player, and didn't intend to give that impression. My point on that was simply that it's punishing to a new player to be pitted against players of much greater experience, greater skill, and and undeniable advantage in card availability. Some commenters, in addition to myself, have pointed out ways that might be improved. Many suggestions wouldn't make it easier for new players to ladder, but they would make it less frustrating than feeling like you don't have a chance. It's like the difference between trying to learn arithmetic while someone is teaching arithmetic, and trying to learn arithmetic while someone is teach calculus. I don't expect to just "know" arithmetic or be given the answers, I'm willing to put in the time to learn, but it's a lot harder to learn when you aren't in the right class.

A few people mentioned that a 50% deck is good enough to get to rank 5. Maybe I am using jargon incorrectly, but I don't see how winning half your games could result in rank 5, without some incredible luck in the distribution of those outcomes. If I win 2 and then lose 2, I think I end up netting 1 star. If I win 3 in a row, and lose 3 in a row, I net 2 stars (right?). But that's not a typical distribution. It's more like W W L L L W L L W W L W L W. That's 7 wins, 7 losses, but I think my net after each match in that scenario would be: 1 3 2 1 0 1 0 -1 0 2 1 2 1 2. So after 14 games, I might gain 2 stars. The next 14 might be a similar distribution, resulting in the loss of a star or two. I guess I'm not seeing the math on how this could lead to netting 75 stars (15 levels x 5 stars/level = 75 net stars between 20 and 5, right?) unless I play hundreds (maybe thousands) of games a month.

Regarding arena, I read lots of comments that implied that I have a bad take on arena, because it's how it SHOULD work. I agree, and even said I'm more understanding of that. But it's still frustrating as a new player. And, reading through the comments, the community seems to be pretty split on whether new players should play that mode or wait until they "get gud". I've watched Twitch streams, I watched the recent (I think) championships, I watch top players' YT videos, and I read a lot more than I care to admit about this game. I'm trying to learn, and improve. I understand this game mode, and I actually enjoy it, but it is, nonetheless, a losing proposition (in terms of building my collection). That isn't the end-all, be-all reason to play, which is why I play arena a lot, but I do want to build a collection, too. I've taken university courses on gamification (I work in the software industry), and different players are "fulfilled" in different ways - I happen to be a completionist, so if there's a "collect the things" component to a game, I'm going to try to "collect ALL the things". Every gun in CoD, diamond with everything unlocked. Every inch of every map in platformers discovered and explored. And, in this case, every card available to me, in my collection when I want it.

Regarding my comment about playing M:TG. I played Magic starting in Beta. I spent a TON of money on cards over the years (and probably made a profit after selling them all when I quit - which I regret ... they are worth more now, and my son and I could be playing, but hindsight is 20/20). There was a difference, though. My friends and I were learning with the same cards. We we learning the game together, developing strategies together, etc. Of COURSE I know that game cost money, and that's part of my reason for sharing my thoughts. When I was a few years into M:TG, and a couple new friends wanted to play pretty much any CCG other than M:TG, I didn't get it, because M:TG was sooooo much more fun/better. But I have since realized that the cost of catching up prevented them from even wanting to try. 

I'm not suggesting wholesale changes to HS. I didn't really share this to say "here's what the developers need to do differently". I'm not contemplating the longevity of the game. I'm not complaining that it costs too much (I do plan on spending some money on the game, when new expansions are released, I'm just not going to drop a few Benjamins to try and catch up all at once). I'm not saying it's Pay2Win. I'm really just sharing what it's like to be new, for those who aren't anymore and might be interested.

Final thought, which is a question, and I hope someone will read this far and answer - a couple people mentioned "ToT" ... what is that? I googled, but all I can find is lots of places where the abbreviation is used, but I couldn't find an explanation of what it is.

Again, thanks everyone who shared tips and insights. I've bookmarked several pages to read, and noted some names to check out on YT/Twitch.