Or maybe learn to play and beat it easily, instead of crying on forum?
What is that, tier 3 deck? If you loose against it you must play some super greedy control nad you get punished for your greediness.
Did you read any of the previous posts? Quest Rogue was Tier 2-3 before. How many times did that get nerfed? Oh, right, twice. There isn't anything really to learn. It's play an aggro deck, and hope to go face before he can wipe you, or you lose. Control decks almost auto lose against it.
The problem isn't that we can't kill it. The problem is that once it's played, you almost always lose. Just like how Quest Rogue was before it was nerfed the first time. Reiteration seems to be a thing on this forum since no one reads previous posts.
Of course as a control player you typically lose to it. The deck is an OTK for crying out loud. How do people not get that ALL OTK decks by nature are intended to generally win against control. Most control decks don't run massive burst nor do they usually try to kill their opponents with burst, which ends up contributing to control generally losing to OTK further.
It is almost like people are complaining about the nature of rock-paper-scissors in a card game of aggro, midrange, control, and control (OTK).
Or maybe learn to play and beat it easily, instead of crying on forum?
What is that, tier 3 deck? If you loose against it you must play some super greedy control nad you get punished for your greediness.
Did you read any of the previous posts? Quest Rogue was Tier 2-3 before. How many times did that get nerfed? Oh, right, twice. There isn't anything really to learn. It's play an aggro deck, and hope to go face before he can wipe you, or you lose. Control decks almost auto lose against it.
The problem isn't that we can't kill it. The problem is that once it's played, you almost always lose. Just like how Quest Rogue was before it was nerfed the first time. Reiteration seems to be a thing on this forum since no one reads previous posts.
Of course as a control player you typically lose to it. The deck is an OTK for crying out loud. How do people not get that ALL OTK decks by nature are intended to generally win against control. Most control decks don't run massive burst nor do they usually try to kill their opponents with burst, which ends up contributing to control generally losing to OTK further.
It is almost like people are complaining about the nature of rock-paper-scissors in a card game of aggro, midrange, control, and control (OTK).
If that's the case, why did they nerf Quest Rogue TWICE. What you are failing to understand is that there is literally NOTHING you can do once the card is played. Other OTKs at least have something that can counter it. If they put Dirty Rat back in, this wouldn't be that big an issue. But we literally have nothing that can stop it. Oh of course, aggro. Duh. Quest Rogue was the same issue. Shudderwock should be treated the same. Not sure what needs to happen to make it less polarizing vs control, but it needs to be done.
This also isn't your regular "combo" deck either. Generally, you need to assemble all the combo pieces in hand to make the OTK combo work. In this case, you just have to play the cards, which, already happens throughout the match, then play Shudderwock. You don't have to play all the cards in one turn.
Or maybe learn to play and beat it easily, instead of crying on forum?
What is that, tier 3 deck? If you loose against it you must play some super greedy control nad you get punished for your greediness.
Did you read any of the previous posts? Quest Rogue was Tier 2-3 before. How many times did that get nerfed? Oh, right, twice. There isn't anything really to learn. It's play an aggro deck, and hope to go face before he can wipe you, or you lose. Control decks almost auto lose against it.
The problem isn't that we can't kill it. The problem is that once it's played, you almost always lose. Just like how Quest Rogue was before it was nerfed the first time. Reiteration seems to be a thing on this forum since no one reads previous posts.
Of course as a control player you typically lose to it. The deck is an OTK for crying out loud. How do people not get that ALL OTK decks by nature are intended to generally win against control. Most control decks don't run massive burst nor do they usually try to kill their opponents with burst, which ends up contributing to control generally losing to OTK further.
It is almost like people are complaining about the nature of rock-paper-scissors in a card game of aggro, midrange, control, and control (OTK).
If that's the case, why did they nerf Quest Rogue TWICE. What you are failing to understand is that there is literally NOTHING you can do once the card is played. Other OTKs at least have something that can counter it. If they put Dirty Rat back in, this wouldn't be that big an issue. But we literally have nothing that can stop it. Oh of course, aggro. Duh. Quest Rogue was the same issue. Shudderwock should be treated the same. Not sure what needs to happen to make it less polarizing vs control, but it needs to be done.
This also isn't your regular "combo" deck either. Generally, you need to assemble all the combo pieces in hand to make the OTK combo work. In this case, you just have to play the cards, which, already happens throughout the match, then play Shudderwock. You don't have to play all the cards in one turn.
Quest Rogue has nothing to do with OTKs being intended to beat most greedy decks with little to no burst. Quest Rogue isn't even an OTK deck, but a combo deck that could assemble an OTK if it held onto enough chargers and bounce effects. The deck was nerfed twice because it was polarzing due to the initial design of the card being too powerful and too easy to meet the requirements. It essentially was a miniature Naga Sea Witch deck, and it wasn't even an OTK deck.
Yeah, you're not supposed to be able to do anything once Shudderwok is played... That is basically the point in time when traditional OTK decks kill you. Why do you think you should be able to stop the combo from killing you after it has fulfilled all of its requirements? That is like asking to have a Malygos, Aviana, or Velen combo to be preventable mid cast.
So because standard is a fail format that doesn't place appropriate tech into the classic set, rotates out the only tech of its kind, and doesn't replace said tech in other expansions that means that decks that are manageable in wild should be nerfed in both formats? Pretty much sounds like you're wanting wild punished for what standard fails to do. Also, whose fault is it if there is an appropriate archtype that counters a single deck, but you simply don't want to play that archtype because of 'reasons'?
Yeah, Shudderwok isn't your typical OTK deck because it doesn't need to hold onto most of its pieces for the whole game. However, Frost Lich Jaina, Deathstalker Rexxar, Double Dead Man's Hand, and Jade Idol, while not OTK cards, did all deviate significantly from what control used to be defined as (ie it created what a lot of players now call "infinite value". None of those cards were nerfed for significantly changing the control pattern, I see no reason why Shudderwok needs to be changed for breaking the OTK pattern. Now that doesn't mean I what most OTK decks to function like Shudderwok (An Aviana or Malygos style deck that worked like that could potentially be devastating), but considering that Shudderwok shaman is far from clawing its way up to tier 1 in either format I am fine with Shudderwok staying as is.
Or maybe learn to play and beat it easily, instead of crying on forum?
What is that, tier 3 deck? If you loose against it you must play some super greedy control nad you get punished for your greediness.
Did you read any of the previous posts? Quest Rogue was Tier 2-3 before. How many times did that get nerfed? Oh, right, twice. There isn't anything really to learn. It's play an aggro deck, and hope to go face before he can wipe you, or you lose. Control decks almost auto lose against it.
The problem isn't that we can't kill it. The problem is that once it's played, you almost always lose. Just like how Quest Rogue was before it was nerfed the first time. Reiteration seems to be a thing on this forum since no one reads previous posts.
Of course as a control player you typically lose to it. The deck is an OTK for crying out loud. How do people not get that ALL OTK decks by nature are intended to generally win against control. Most control decks don't run massive burst nor do they usually try to kill their opponents with burst, which ends up contributing to control generally losing to OTK further.
It is almost like people are complaining about the nature of rock-paper-scissors in a card game of aggro, midrange, control, and control (OTK).
If that's the case, why did they nerf Quest Rogue TWICE. What you are failing to understand is that there is literally NOTHING you can do once the card is played. Other OTKs at least have something that can counter it. If they put Dirty Rat back in, this wouldn't be that big an issue. But we literally have nothing that can stop it. Oh of course, aggro. Duh. Quest Rogue was the same issue. Shudderwock should be treated the same. Not sure what needs to happen to make it less polarizing vs control, but it needs to be done.
This also isn't your regular "combo" deck either. Generally, you need to assemble all the combo pieces in hand to make the OTK combo work. In this case, you just have to play the cards, which, already happens throughout the match, then play Shudderwock. You don't have to play all the cards in one turn.
Quest Rogue has nothing to do with OTKs being intended to beat most greedy decks with little to no burst. Quest Rogue isn't even an OTK deck, but a combo deck that could assemble an OTK if it held onto enough chargers and bounce effects. The deck was nerfed twice because it was polarzing due to the initial design of the card being too powerful and too easy to meet the requirements. It essentially was a miniature Naga Sea Witch deck, and it wasn't even an OTK deck.
Yeah, you're not supposed to be able to do anything once Shudderwok is played... That is basically the point in time when traditional OTK decks kill you. Why do you think you should be able to stop the combo from killing you after it has fulfilled all of its requirements? That is like asking to have a Malygos, Aviana, or Velen combo to be preventable mid cast.
So because standard is a fail format that doesn't place appropriate tech into the classic set, rotates out the only tech of its kind, and doesn't replace said tech in other expansions that means that decks that are manageable in wild should be nerfed in both formats? Pretty much sounds like you're wanting wild punished for what standard fails to do. Also, whose fault is it if there is an appropriate archtype that counters a single deck, but you simply don't want to play that archtype because of 'reasons'?
Yeah, Shudderwok isn't your typical OTK deck because it doesn't need to hold onto most of its pieces for the whole game. However, Frost Lich Jaina, Deathstalker Rexxar, Double Dead Man's Hand, and Jade Idol, while not OTK cards, did all deviate significantly from what control used to be defined as (ie it created what a lot of players now call "infinite value". None of those cards were nerfed for significantly changing the control pattern, I see no reason why Shudderwok needs to be changed for breaking the OTK pattern. Now that doesn't mean I what most OTK decks to function like Shudderwok (An Aviana or Malygos style deck that worked like that could potentially be devastating), but considering that Shudderwok shaman is far from clawing its way up to tier 1 in either format I am fine with Shudderwok staying as is.
Obviously Quest Rogue has nothing to do with OTKs. Did I ever make that comparison? No. I simply said that Shudderwock should be treated the same way Quest Rogue was. Because they both have the same issues. Once each card is played, there was almost literally nothing you can do. Shudderwock is just as easy to "meet the requirements".
Obviously you can't do anything once a deck has played it's OTK. But as i've stated many times, if you read my post, that there is LITERALLY NOTHING YOU CAN DO to stop just Shudderwock(One card btw). Uh, Malygos you can counter with counterspell to stop one of it's spells being casted. Also, playing Malygos requires to have all the combo pieces in your hand. Again, as I said, Shudderwock does not require all the combo pieces to be in hand to be played in one turn. Aviana is in wild. She doesn't matter. Whole different ball game of wild. Velen OTK still requires multiple cards to be in hand to do the OTK combo. Oh and about traditional OTKs, you're supposed to be able to be able to have some sort of answer before it's played. With Shudderwock, there is NO answer to stop it from being played, before it's played, and after it's played.
Please don't drag wild into this as a counter. That's a weak argument. Find something else to argue with. And the reason why wild is a weak argument, is because all the answers and multiple expansions are there. No one cares about wild. It's simply not that important. And before you say "yes it is", do they hold world tournaments for wild? Prize, cash money? Do other card games allow banned cards to be playable in tournaments? No? Ok. Nuff with wild comparison.
So, again, I use Quest Rogue as an example. Yet again. Let me break it down so you can understand better. Quest Rogue was Tier 2-3 pre-nerf the 1st time. What was it's counter? That's riiiiiiiiiiiight. You guessed it. Aggro. Did Quest Rogue have a high W/R? Nope. Did it get nerfed? Yep. Twice. Does it make sense yet? The problem isn't that it doesn't have an archetype to beat it. The problem is there is nothing you can do to stop Shudderwock once it's played. I don't know how many times I have to say that to make it apparent.
Frost Lich Jaina, Deathstalker Rexxar, Dead Man's Hand, and Jade Idol are weak arguments. They did not and do not automatically end the game when they're played. There are still turns and still hope that the player, playing against the person who used those cards, still have a chance. So no to that. Next.
Again, Quest Rogue was not Tier 1. Yet because of how polarizing the match became once the quest was played, was the reason for the initial nerf. Yes it was easy to finish the quest. Considering we're in a control meta, it's just as easy as Shudderwock Shaman to be able to prolong the match enough time to play a few battlecry minions then draw their Shudderwock. Hemet more so recently becoming a thing, making it that much easier to pull off.
Obviously Quest Rogue has nothing to do with OTKs. Did I ever make that comparison? No. I simply said that Shudderwock should be treated the same way Quest Rogue was. Because they both have the same issues. Once each card is played, there was almost literally nothing you can do.
Obviously you can't do anything once a deck has played it's OTK. But as i've stated many times, if you read my post, that there is LITERALLY NOTHING YOU CAN DO to stop just Shudderwock(One card btw). Uh, Malygos you can counter with counterspell to stop one of it's spells being casted. Also, playing Malygos requires to have all the combo pieces in your hand. Again, as I said, Shudderwock does not require all the combo pieces to be in hand to be played in one turn. Aviana is in wild. She doesn't matter. Whole different ball game of wild. Velen OTK still requires multiple cards to be in hand to do the OTK combo.
Please don't drag wild into this as a counter. That's a weak argument. Find something else to argue with. And the reason why wild is a weak argument, is because all the answers and multiple expansions are there. No one cares about wild. It's simply not that important. And before you say "yes it is", do they hold world tournaments for wild? Prize, cash money? Do other card games allow banned cards to be playable in tournaments? No? Ok. Nuff with wild comparison.
So, again, I use Quest Rogue as an example. Yet again. Let me break it down so you can understand better. Quest Rogue was Tier 2-3 pre-nerf the 1st time. What was it's counter? That's riiiiiiiiiiiight. You guessed it. Aggro. Did Quest Rogue have a high W/R? Nope. Did it get nerfed? Yep. Twice. Does it make sense yet? The problem isn't that it doesn't have an archetype to beat it. The problem is there is nothing you can do to stop Shudderwock once it's played. I don't know how many times I have to say that to make it apparent.
Frost Lich Jaina, Deathstalker Rexxar, Dead Man's Hand, and Jade Idol are weak arguments. They did not and do not automatically end the game when they're played. There are still turns and still hope that the player, playing against the person who used those cards, still have a chance. So no to that. Next.
Again, Quest Rogue was not Tier 1. Yet because of how polarizing the match became once the quest was played, was the reason for the initial nerf. Yes it was easy to finish the quest. Considering we're in a control meta, it's just as easy as Shudderwock Shaman to be able to prolong the match enough time to play a few battlecry minions then draw their Shudderwock. Hemet more so recently becoming a thing, making it that much easier to pull off.
So you're fine with only one counter existing to counter Malygos decks (Counterspell), but you aren't fine with 2 cards countering Shudderwok (Gnomeferatu & Howlfiend)? Okay then, very flawed comparison.
Nobody cares about wild? LMAO, plenty of wild streamers hated NSW and they were among the most prominent activists that got T5 to actually nerf a wild-only card? And just because wild isn't the prominent tournament scene that hands out cash prizes in Oprah Winfrey fashion doesn't mean there aren't tournaments and that people don't care about the format. That is a very naive statement and exposes just how little you know about the format. Dane, a wild streamer who even posts decks onto this website, actually was one of the participants in a tournament that progressed in chronological order through the various expansions and adventures that were released, having participants create decks that were only possible to construct during those various points in the game's life. How about we go to the very many youtube highlight channels. Ever see Hysteria, Happy, Towellie, etc showcasing a wide array of clips where they successfully carry out a crazy combo? Yep, obviously the format is so shunned that all of these wild-only clips aren't ending up on multiple youtube channels on a weekly, sometimes daily, basis. Next time keep your posts limited to what you actual have accurate knowledge of :)
And yes, wild should be considered when balancing some cards, considering that we've already had a wild-only card that only saw play in meme decks just so that standard locks could get fed yet another board clear.
The infinite value cards I mentioned earlier was in response to your complaints about Shudderwok breaking the mold of the traditional OTK model, not bringing them up to compare relative power between them and Shudderwok (Reading comprehension I know). The point was that those infinite value cards weren't nerfed for breaking the mold of the control archtype so why is Shudderwok breaking the mold of the OTK archtype so outrageous when it doesn't even boost the deck to an ungodly status.
This might be a hard concept so listen close; more control decks might win more often against Shudderwok if they actually either ran actual burst or stopped treating the match-up like a normal slow attrition-based game and instead shifted game plans early on to be aggressive. The exact same flaws in how to treat games where you are on a clock happened with Jade Druid back in the day. So many people complained that it killed control and yet many of those players still treated the match-up as a game where they would somehow win by playing slow. The actual successful control players beat many more Jade Druids as control by smorcing it up as best they could with their control cards (even if it meant playing minions less value efficiently and went for tempo minions instead). How do you think more control players beat Shudderwok decks in standard today? It isn't just the situations where the shaman has Shudderwok in the last 5 cards of their deck I can tell you that. It is all about not committing too much into volcano, but having enough pressure where the shaman can't always easily drop things like Grumble for a 7 mana do nothing turn.
Back to the Quest Rogue and Shudderwok comparison. The two polarizing effects of those decks on their respective metas are very different. You can't just say; "Those both make control lose so obviously they both meet requirements for major reworking." Quest Rogue was nerfed because it was way overtuned for a mere combo deck that was not an OTK deck. In fact, as I mentioned, the deck was a combo that was was so good in its quest reward of creating 5/5s that it more or less had a hidden alternate win condition of a large burst combo if you had your resources. In addition, the combo was already active around turn 5, give or take a turn. That did not allow even tempo played minions in control decks to actually pressure the rogue player like you can pressure Shudderwok shamans. Shudderwok shamans in comparison have no burst outside of the OTK and can be pressurred by control.
TL;DR: Quest Rogue was nerfed due to the polarizing effects of being overtuned for what a non-OTK combo deck should be able to do by turn 5. Shudderwok is polarizing naturally because OTKs naturally counter control decks (and because the designers fail at balancing the standard format with appropriate soft counters after rotations).
Or maybe learn to play and beat it easily, instead of crying on forum?
What is that, tier 3 deck? If you loose against it you must play some super greedy control nad you get punished for your greediness.
Did you read any of the previous posts? Quest Rogue was Tier 2-3 before. How many times did that get nerfed? Oh, right, twice. There isn't anything really to learn. It's play an aggro deck, and hope to go face before he can wipe you, or you lose. Control decks almost auto lose against it.
The problem isn't that we can't kill it. The problem is that once it's played, you almost always lose. Just like how Quest Rogue was before it was nerfed the first time. Reiteration seems to be a thing on this forum since no one reads previous posts.
Of course as a control player you typically lose to it. The deck is an OTK for crying out loud. How do people not get that ALL OTK decks by nature are intended to generally win against control. Most control decks don't run massive burst nor do they usually try to kill their opponents with burst, which ends up contributing to control generally losing to OTK further.
It is almost like people are complaining about the nature of rock-paper-scissors in a card game of aggro, midrange, control, and control (OTK).
Oh look, a clueless player who thinks that an aggro deck was an OTK deck.
There's a reason why it was nerfed twice, because of how easy it was to get Crystal Caverns. You basically bounced a Stonetusk Boar with Shadowstep twice, bounce it with Gadgetzan Ferryman, Prep, Crystal Caverns, and you have the combo on turn THREE. Hyper-aggro decks like Pirate Warrior and Murlocadin were having issues slowing it down. It's been nerfed TWICE for that reason, because even AGGRO was losing to it when the combo was activated early enough.
Or maybe learn to play and beat it easily, instead of crying on forum?
What is that, tier 3 deck? If you loose against it you must play some super greedy control nad you get punished for your greediness.
Did you read any of the previous posts? Quest Rogue was Tier 2-3 before. How many times did that get nerfed? Oh, right, twice. There isn't anything really to learn. It's play an aggro deck, and hope to go face before he can wipe you, or you lose. Control decks almost auto lose against it.
The problem isn't that we can't kill it. The problem is that once it's played, you almost always lose. Just like how Quest Rogue was before it was nerfed the first time. Reiteration seems to be a thing on this forum since no one reads previous posts.
Of course as a control player you typically lose to it. The deck is an OTK for crying out loud. How do people not get that ALL OTK decks by nature are intended to generally win against control. Most control decks don't run massive burst nor do they usually try to kill their opponents with burst, which ends up contributing to control generally losing to OTK further.
It is almost like people are complaining about the nature of rock-paper-scissors in a card game of aggro, midrange, control, and control (OTK).
Oh look, a clueless player who thinks that an aggro deck was an OTK deck.
There's a reason why it was nerfed twice, because of how easy it was to get Crystal Caverns. You basically bounced a Stonetusk Boar with Shadowstep twice, bounce it with Gadgetzan Ferryman, Prep, Crystal Caverns, and you have the combo on turn THREE. Hyper-aggro decks like Pirate Warrior and Murlocadin were having issues slowing it down. It's been nerfed TWICE for that reason, because even AGGRO was losing to it when the combo was activated early enough.
Not sure if you meant to quote me in that post or not. In that post I was talking about Shudderwok Shaman, not Quest Rogue at that point. I know that Quest Rogue is not an OTK. It actually isn't an aggro deck either considering that the purpose of the deck is to combo bounce cards with one or more 1-2 drops repeatedly. The deck doesn't even pressure until the quest is complete (which is quite the opposite of an aggro deck).
Just make saronite chain gang summon another 2/3 with taunt. “May be a nerf to buff pally” or “They will run doppelgangster instead” well, theres more counterplay in wild so doppelgangster interaction is meh, and for buff pally, why tf would you be playing buff pally.
Shudderwock is a boring deck to play against and play, can’t understand how anyone can support it when its literally more brainless than odd paladin. You don’t even have control over the combo, if grumble triggers before saronites then good job idiot, you wasted everybody’s time. If the combo goes off, good job idiot, now you’re wasting your own time.
Grumble is not a loss of tempo. It's a 6 mana 7/7. Blizzard explicitly set up the Shudderwock combo by introducing Lifedinker alongside. It is in wild with Doppleganster and Evolve. I don't really see a problem with the card, but there are other ways to utilize it than a prolonged combo deck.
Obviously Quest Rogue has nothing to do with OTKs. Did I ever make that comparison? No. I simply said that Shudderwock should be treated the same way Quest Rogue was. Because they both have the same issues. Once each card is played, there was almost literally nothing you can do.
Obviously you can't do anything once a deck has played it's OTK. But as i've stated many times, if you read my post, that there is LITERALLY NOTHING YOU CAN DO to stop just Shudderwock(One card btw). Uh, Malygos you can counter with counterspell to stop one of it's spells being casted. Also, playing Malygos requires to have all the combo pieces in your hand. Again, as I said, Shudderwock does not require all the combo pieces to be in hand to be played in one turn. Aviana is in wild. She doesn't matter. Whole different ball game of wild. Velen OTK still requires multiple cards to be in hand to do the OTK combo.
Please don't drag wild into this as a counter. That's a weak argument. Find something else to argue with. And the reason why wild is a weak argument, is because all the answers and multiple expansions are there. No one cares about wild. It's simply not that important. And before you say "yes it is", do they hold world tournaments for wild? Prize, cash money? Do other card games allow banned cards to be playable in tournaments? No? Ok. Nuff with wild comparison.
So, again, I use Quest Rogue as an example. Yet again. Let me break it down so you can understand better. Quest Rogue was Tier 2-3 pre-nerf the 1st time. What was it's counter? That's riiiiiiiiiiiight. You guessed it. Aggro. Did Quest Rogue have a high W/R? Nope. Did it get nerfed? Yep. Twice. Does it make sense yet? The problem isn't that it doesn't have an archetype to beat it. The problem is there is nothing you can do to stop Shudderwock once it's played. I don't know how many times I have to say that to make it apparent.
Frost Lich Jaina, Deathstalker Rexxar, Dead Man's Hand, and Jade Idol are weak arguments. They did not and do not automatically end the game when they're played. There are still turns and still hope that the player, playing against the person who used those cards, still have a chance. So no to that. Next.
Again, Quest Rogue was not Tier 1. Yet because of how polarizing the match became once the quest was played, was the reason for the initial nerf. Yes it was easy to finish the quest. Considering we're in a control meta, it's just as easy as Shudderwock Shaman to be able to prolong the match enough time to play a few battlecry minions then draw their Shudderwock. Hemet more so recently becoming a thing, making it that much easier to pull off.
So you're fine with only one counter existing to counter Malygos decks (Counterspell), but you aren't fine with 2 cards countering Shudderwok (Gnomeferatu & Howlfiend)? Okay then, very flawed comparison.
Nobody cares about wild? LMAO, plenty of wild streamers hated NSW and they were among the most prominent activists that got T5 to actually nerf a wild-only card? And just because wild isn't the prominent tournament scene that hands out cash prizes in Oprah Winfrey fashion doesn't mean there aren't tournaments and that people don't care about the format. That is a very naive statement and exposes just how little you know about the format. Dane, a wild streamer who even posts decks onto this website, actually was one of the participants in a tournament that progressed in chronological order through the various expansions and adventures that were released, having participants create decks that were only possible to construct during those various points in the game's life. How about we go to the very many youtube highlight channels. Ever see Hysteria, Happy, Towellie, etc showcasing a wide array of clips where they successfully carry out a crazy combo? Yep, obviously the format is so shunned that all of these wild-only clips aren't ending up on multiple youtube channels on a weekly, sometimes daily, basis. Next time keep your posts limited to what you actual have accurate knowledge of :)
And yes, wild should be considered when balancing some cards, considering that we've already had a wild-only card that only saw play in meme decks just so that standard locks could get fed yet another board clear.
The infinite value cards I mentioned earlier was in response to your complaints about Shudderwok breaking the mold of the traditional OTK model, not bringing them up to compare relative power between them and Shudderwok (Reading comprehension I know). The point was that those infinite value cards weren't nerfed for breaking the mold of the control archtype so why is Shudderwok breaking the mold of the OTK archtype so outrageous when it doesn't even boost the deck to an ungodly status.
This might be a hard concept so listen close; more control decks might win more often against Shudderwok if they actually either ran actual burst or stopped treating the match-up like a normal slow attrition-based game and instead shifted game plans early on to be aggressive. The exact same flaws in how to treat games where you are on a clock happened with Jade Druid back in the day. So many people complained that it killed control and yet many of those players still treated the match-up as a game where they would somehow win by playing slow. The actual successful control players beat many more Jade Druids as control by smorcing it up as best they could with their control cards (even if it meant playing minions less value efficiently and went for tempo minions instead). How do you think more control players beat Shudderwok decks in standard today? It isn't just the situations where the shaman has Shudderwok in the last 5 cards of their deck I can tell you that. It is all about not committing too much into volcano, but having enough pressure where the shaman can't always easily drop things like Grumble for a 7 mana do nothing turn.
Back to the Quest Rogue and Shudderwok comparison. The two polarizing effects of those decks on their respective metas are very different. You can't just say; "Those both make control lose so obviously they both meet requirements for major reworking." Quest Rogue was nerfed because it was way overtuned for a mere combo deck that was not an OTK deck. In fact, as I mentioned, the deck was a combo that was was so good in its quest reward of creating 5/5s that it more or less had a hidden alternate win condition of a large burst combo if you had your resources. In addition, the combo was already active around turn 5, give or take a turn. That did not allow even tempo played minions in control decks to actually pressure the rogue player like you can pressure Shudderwok shamans. Shudderwok shamans in comparison have no burst outside of the OTK and can be pressurred by control.
TL;DR: Quest Rogue was nerfed due to the polarizing effects of being overtuned for what a non-OTK combo deck should be able to do by turn 5. Shudderwok is polarizing naturally because OTKs naturally counter control decks (and because the designers fail at balancing the standard format with appropriate soft counters after rotations).
Let me rephrase that "no one cares" about wild and expand on it since it clearly went over your head. Blizzard, or T5 rather, don't really care that much about wild. Sure, it every once in a while sees some kind of maintenance or nerf to a wild only card, but only very very rarely. Obviously there are going to be people who stream and post videos on YouTube regarding wild as a preference of play. That's blatantly obvious. My statement was more geared towards the fact that standard is really only the format we need to regard when nerfing a card. Since standard practically dictates when a card gets nerfed. Not the other way around. TL;DR: Standard dictates the nerfs and wild doesn't dictate whether it should or shouldn't be nerfed, since it can just be un-nerfed when it gets to wild. e.g. Molten Giant. Does that make sense to you or should I paraphrase it just for you?
So no wild should not be considered when nerfing a card since it can be un-nerfed after it's rotated out of standard. Moving on.
Infinite Value and Shudderwock breaking the mold, again, is not the problem. Sure, they break the mold. Yippe. Cool. Let's get over that. It's a different kind of OTK. Difference still being, one ends the game once it's played, and the other doesn't. Again, Quest Rogue wasn't on a ungodly status either. Can you make a more relevant comparison? Because honestly, it doesn't seem to be your strong suite.
Let me paraphrase more for you, since explanations and to the actual point of the issue, goes over your head. If we're speaking on a "on the clock" type of situation until Shudderwock is played, Jade Idol is not a great comparison. Let's look at exhibit A.) Razakus Priest. Although nearing it's life expectancy, Raza was nerfed due to the combo. Why was that nerfed? Right, because once it was played, and having the DK, it was practically over. Just like, that's right you guessed it, Shudderwock. What was it's only counter? That's riiiight, aggro. Did it end games by turn 5? Nope. Was it still nerfed? Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssss it was.
More or less had a hidden win alternative? Quest Rogue? What? It was literally to finish the Quest and run your 5/5s to face. That was the main and only win condition. It was nerfed for reasons A.) unless you were playing aggro, you didn't beat Quest Rogue who finished their Quest. B.) the Quest was easy to complete by turn 5. Initially. Not because "it was overtuned". No. The reason was plain and simple. Once quest was complete, you had little to no chance of winning against it. It's the same reason it was nerfed a second time.
I hope that made some sense to you because, it's really simple. TL;DR: Quest Rogue each time it was nerfed, in it's meta time, and Shudderwock in this meta, provide the same issue. I'm going to leave this discussion at that because apparently the point i'm making is lost on you.
Just change the battlecry of Saronite to "If this minion is Saronite Chain Gang summon a copy of this minion", problem solved and don't need any nerf.
yes- they did something similar to the druid quest, changed how faceless interacted with it, which ended up being a huge loss of power to the deck, but wasn't technically a nerf to the quest card itself. Changing it to "summon an additional copy of Saronite Chain Gang" would be perfect. It would a open up a lot of interesting avenues to use shutterwok instead of the stupid infinite one mana fiesta it is now.
Let me rephrase that "no one cares" about wild and expand on it since it clearly went over your head. Blizzard, or T5 rather, don't really care that much about wild. Sure, it every once in a while sees some kind of maintenance or nerf to a wild only card, but only very very rarely. Obviously there are going to be people who stream and post videos on YouTube regarding wild as a preference of play. That's blatantly obvious. My statement was more geared towards the fact that standard is really only the format we need to regard when nerfing a card. Since standard practically dictates when a card gets nerfed. Not the other way around. TL;DR: Standard dictates the nerfs and wild doesn't dictate whether it should or shouldn't be nerfed, since it can just be un-nerfed when it gets to wild. e.g. Molten Giant. Does that make sense to you or should I paraphrase it just for you?
So no wild should not be considered when nerfing a card since it can be un-nerfed after it's rotated out of standard. Moving on.
Infinite Value and Shudderwock breaking the mold, again, is not the problem. Sure, they break the mold. Yippe. Cool. Let's get over that. It's a different kind of OTK. Difference still being, one ends the game once it's played, and the other doesn't. Again, Quest Rogue wasn't on a ungodly status either. Can you make a more relevant comparison? Because honestly, it doesn't seem to be your strong suite.
Let me paraphrase more for you, since explanations and to the actual point of the issue, goes over your head. If we're speaking on a "on the clock" type of situation until Shudderwock is played, Jade Idol is not a great comparison. Let's look at exhibit A.) Razakus Priest. Although nearing it's life expectancy, Raza was nerfed due to the combo. Why was that nerfed? Right, because once it was played, and having the DK, it was practically over. Just like, that's right you guessed it, Shudderwock. What was it's only counter? That's riiiight, aggro. Did it end games by turn 5? Nope. Was it still nerfed? Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssss it was.
More or less had a hidden win alternative? Quest Rogue? What? It was literally to finish the Quest and run your 5/5s to face. That was the main and only win condition. It was nerfed for reasons A.) unless you were playing aggro, you didn't beat Quest Rogue who finished their Quest. B.) the Quest was easy to complete by turn 5. Initially. Not because "it was overtuned". No. The reason was plain and simple. Once quest was complete, you had little to no chance of winning against it. It's the same reason it was nerfed a second time.
I hope that made some sense to you because, it's really simple. TL;DR: Quest Rogue each time it was nerfed, in it's meta time, and Shudderwock in this meta, provide the same issue. I'm going to leave this discussion at that because apparently the point i'm making is lost on you.
Since you seem to be misunderstanding most of the points I already re-explained I'll just leave it at this.
Shudderwok should not be nerfed because it beats control. It is an OTK deck and ALL OTK decks are designed to win against control by playing against their slow greedy nature. This isn't just a Shudderwok problem. If we had a different powerful OTK it would still be beating control, especially since there is no dirty rat or soft counter in standard atm. This isn't a Shudderwok problem, it is a people complaining that an archtype that naturally counters that archtype problem.
And considering the deck is not dominating the meta and T5 hasn't nerfed it it looks like you're not getting your way anyway.
Shudderwock are fine. Its so slow. And if the player has bad draw they lose. Allways
There's a major difference between all other OTK decks and Shudderwock. In all other otk decks you need a ton of cards in your hand. In the Shudderwock deck you just need to play those before playing that ONE CARD, you won't be stuck with cards in hand. Also, the loss rate is so high because it's very sensible to aggro, and the meta has plenty of that ( secret mage, odd paladin, and so on and on ), but play a control deck and it's useless, and mid-range sort of equals it. So, practically, playing control is not an option anymore because of Shudderwock. I don't think that's ok at all.
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Shudderwock are fine. Its so slow. And if the player has bad draw they lose. Allways
There's a major difference between all other OTK decks and Shudderwock. In all other otk decks you need a ton of cards in your hand. In the Shudderwock deck you just need to play those before playing that ONE CARD, you won't be stuck with cards in hand. Also, the loss rate is so high because it's very sensible to aggro, and the meta has plenty of that ( secret mage, odd paladin, and so on and on ), but play a control deck and it's useless, and mid-range sort of equals it. So, practically, playing control is not an option anymore because of Shudderwock. I don't think that's ok at all.
Being able to play your pieces from hand vs not being able to play your pieces from hand doesn't change the fact that the control deck is going to lose either way. I have no idea why people keep bringing this point up as if it actually changes what the outcome is for control in either situation. Consistent OTKs almost always beat control decks hands-down. This is why I say that people are confusing a Shudderwok problem with an OTK vs Control problem.
Let me rephrase that "no one cares" about wild and expand on it since it clearly went over your head. Blizzard, or T5 rather, don't really care that much about wild. Sure, it every once in a while sees some kind of maintenance or nerf to a wild only card, but only very very rarely. Obviously there are going to be people who stream and post videos on YouTube regarding wild as a preference of play. That's blatantly obvious. My statement was more geared towards the fact that standard is really only the format we need to regard when nerfing a card. Since standard practically dictates when a card gets nerfed. Not the other way around. TL;DR: Standard dictates the nerfs and wild doesn't dictate whether it should or shouldn't be nerfed, since it can just be un-nerfed when it gets to wild. e.g. Molten Giant. Does that make sense to you or should I paraphrase it just for you?
So no wild should not be considered when nerfing a card since it can be un-nerfed after it's rotated out of standard. Moving on.
Infinite Value and Shudderwock breaking the mold, again, is not the problem. Sure, they break the mold. Yippe. Cool. Let's get over that. It's a different kind of OTK. Difference still being, one ends the game once it's played, and the other doesn't. Again, Quest Rogue wasn't on a ungodly status either. Can you make a more relevant comparison? Because honestly, it doesn't seem to be your strong suite.
Let me paraphrase more for you, since explanations and to the actual point of the issue, goes over your head. If we're speaking on a "on the clock" type of situation until Shudderwock is played, Jade Idol is not a great comparison. Let's look at exhibit A.) Razakus Priest. Although nearing it's life expectancy, Raza was nerfed due to the combo. Why was that nerfed? Right, because once it was played, and having the DK, it was practically over. Just like, that's right you guessed it, Shudderwock. What was it's only counter? That's riiiight, aggro. Did it end games by turn 5? Nope. Was it still nerfed? Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssss it was.
More or less had a hidden win alternative? Quest Rogue? What? It was literally to finish the Quest and run your 5/5s to face. That was the main and only win condition. It was nerfed for reasons A.) unless you were playing aggro, you didn't beat Quest Rogue who finished their Quest. B.) the Quest was easy to complete by turn 5. Initially. Not because "it was overtuned". No. The reason was plain and simple. Once quest was complete, you had little to no chance of winning against it. It's the same reason it was nerfed a second time.
I hope that made some sense to you because, it's really simple. TL;DR: Quest Rogue each time it was nerfed, in it's meta time, and Shudderwock in this meta, provide the same issue. I'm going to leave this discussion at that because apparently the point i'm making is lost on you.
Since you seem to be misunderstanding most of the points I already re-explained I'll just leave it at this.
Shudderwok should not be nerfed because it beats control. It is an OTK deck and ALL OTK decks are designed to win against control by playing against their slow greedy nature. This isn't just a Shudderwok problem. If we had a different powerful OTK it would still be beating control, especially since there is no dirty rat or soft counter in standard atm. This isn't a Shudderwok problem, it is a people complaining that an archtype that naturally counters that archtype problem.
And considering the deck is not dominating the meta and T5 hasn't nerfed it it looks like you're not getting your way anyway.
There's Druid Malygos OTK but no one is complaining bout that. Buuuut ok. Surely on archetype then. Quest Rogue wasn't dominating in it's meta, but, still nerfed twice. So yeah, let's use "not dominating meta" as a platform for an argument. Only a matter of time until it gets nerfed.
Let me rephrase that "no one cares" about wild and expand on it since it clearly went over your head. Blizzard, or T5 rather, don't really care that much about wild. Sure, it every once in a while sees some kind of maintenance or nerf to a wild only card, but only very very rarely. Obviously there are going to be people who stream and post videos on YouTube regarding wild as a preference of play. That's blatantly obvious. My statement was more geared towards the fact that standard is really only the format we need to regard when nerfing a card. Since standard practically dictates when a card gets nerfed. Not the other way around. TL;DR: Standard dictates the nerfs and wild doesn't dictate whether it should or shouldn't be nerfed, since it can just be un-nerfed when it gets to wild. e.g. Molten Giant. Does that make sense to you or should I paraphrase it just for you?
So no wild should not be considered when nerfing a card since it can be un-nerfed after it's rotated out of standard. Moving on.
Infinite Value and Shudderwock breaking the mold, again, is not the problem. Sure, they break the mold. Yippe. Cool. Let's get over that. It's a different kind of OTK. Difference still being, one ends the game once it's played, and the other doesn't. Again, Quest Rogue wasn't on a ungodly status either. Can you make a more relevant comparison? Because honestly, it doesn't seem to be your strong suite.
Let me paraphrase more for you, since explanations and to the actual point of the issue, goes over your head. If we're speaking on a "on the clock" type of situation until Shudderwock is played, Jade Idol is not a great comparison. Let's look at exhibit A.) Razakus Priest. Although nearing it's life expectancy, Raza was nerfed due to the combo. Why was that nerfed? Right, because once it was played, and having the DK, it was practically over. Just like, that's right you guessed it, Shudderwock. What was it's only counter? That's riiiight, aggro. Did it end games by turn 5? Nope. Was it still nerfed? Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssss it was.
More or less had a hidden win alternative? Quest Rogue? What? It was literally to finish the Quest and run your 5/5s to face. That was the main and only win condition. It was nerfed for reasons A.) unless you were playing aggro, you didn't beat Quest Rogue who finished their Quest. B.) the Quest was easy to complete by turn 5. Initially. Not because "it was overtuned". No. The reason was plain and simple. Once quest was complete, you had little to no chance of winning against it. It's the same reason it was nerfed a second time.
I hope that made some sense to you because, it's really simple. TL;DR: Quest Rogue each time it was nerfed, in it's meta time, and Shudderwock in this meta, provide the same issue. I'm going to leave this discussion at that because apparently the point i'm making is lost on you.
Since you seem to be misunderstanding most of the points I already re-explained I'll just leave it at this.
Shudderwok should not be nerfed because it beats control. It is an OTK deck and ALL OTK decks are designed to win against control by playing against their slow greedy nature. This isn't just a Shudderwok problem. If we had a different powerful OTK it would still be beating control, especially since there is no dirty rat or soft counter in standard atm. This isn't a Shudderwok problem, it is a people complaining that an archtype that naturally counters that archtype problem.
And considering the deck is not dominating the meta and T5 hasn't nerfed it it looks like you're not getting your way anyway.
There's Druid Malygos OTK but no one is complaining bout that. Buuuut ok. Surely on archetype then. Quest Rogue wasn't dominating in it's meta, but, still nerfed twice. So yeah, let's use "not dominating meta" as a platform for an argument. Only a matter of time until it gets nerfed.
Actually most people I see complaining about Shudderwok still complains about the animations, not the winrate.
You mean how Jade Idol got nerfed? ;) Or how about how Quest Mage got nerfed? (<------- also being an OTK deck that was complained about). Just accept it, you may want it nerfed, but that doesn't mean it will :)
EDIT: Btw, you fit nicely into the type of person I'm referencing in my thread about people wanting nerfs based on preference instead of actual power level ;)
Let me rephrase that "no one cares" about wild and expand on it since it clearly went over your head. Blizzard, or T5 rather, don't really care that much about wild. Sure, it every once in a while sees some kind of maintenance or nerf to a wild only card, but only very very rarely. Obviously there are going to be people who stream and post videos on YouTube regarding wild as a preference of play. That's blatantly obvious. My statement was more geared towards the fact that standard is really only the format we need to regard when nerfing a card. Since standard practically dictates when a card gets nerfed. Not the other way around. TL;DR: Standard dictates the nerfs and wild doesn't dictate whether it should or shouldn't be nerfed, since it can just be un-nerfed when it gets to wild. e.g. Molten Giant. Does that make sense to you or should I paraphrase it just for you?
So no wild should not be considered when nerfing a card since it can be un-nerfed after it's rotated out of standard. Moving on.
Infinite Value and Shudderwock breaking the mold, again, is not the problem. Sure, they break the mold. Yippe. Cool. Let's get over that. It's a different kind of OTK. Difference still being, one ends the game once it's played, and the other doesn't. Again, Quest Rogue wasn't on a ungodly status either. Can you make a more relevant comparison? Because honestly, it doesn't seem to be your strong suite.
Let me paraphrase more for you, since explanations and to the actual point of the issue, goes over your head. If we're speaking on a "on the clock" type of situation until Shudderwock is played, Jade Idol is not a great comparison. Let's look at exhibit A.) Razakus Priest. Although nearing it's life expectancy, Raza was nerfed due to the combo. Why was that nerfed? Right, because once it was played, and having the DK, it was practically over. Just like, that's right you guessed it, Shudderwock. What was it's only counter? That's riiiight, aggro. Did it end games by turn 5? Nope. Was it still nerfed? Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssss it was.
More or less had a hidden win alternative? Quest Rogue? What? It was literally to finish the Quest and run your 5/5s to face. That was the main and only win condition. It was nerfed for reasons A.) unless you were playing aggro, you didn't beat Quest Rogue who finished their Quest. B.) the Quest was easy to complete by turn 5. Initially. Not because "it was overtuned". No. The reason was plain and simple. Once quest was complete, you had little to no chance of winning against it. It's the same reason it was nerfed a second time.
I hope that made some sense to you because, it's really simple. TL;DR: Quest Rogue each time it was nerfed, in it's meta time, and Shudderwock in this meta, provide the same issue. I'm going to leave this discussion at that because apparently the point i'm making is lost on you.
Since you seem to be misunderstanding most of the points I already re-explained I'll just leave it at this.
Shudderwok should not be nerfed because it beats control. It is an OTK deck and ALL OTK decks are designed to win against control by playing against their slow greedy nature. This isn't just a Shudderwok problem. If we had a different powerful OTK it would still be beating control, especially since there is no dirty rat or soft counter in standard atm. This isn't a Shudderwok problem, it is a people complaining that an archtype that naturally counters that archtype problem.
And considering the deck is not dominating the meta and T5 hasn't nerfed it it looks like you're not getting your way anyway.
There's Druid Malygos OTK but no one is complaining bout that. Buuuut ok. Surely on archetype then. Quest Rogue wasn't dominating in it's meta, but, still nerfed twice. So yeah, let's use "not dominating meta" as a platform for an argument. Only a matter of time until it gets nerfed.
Actually most people I see complaining about Shudderwok still complains about the animations, not the winrate.
You mean how Jade Idol got nerfed? ;) Or how about how Quest Mage got nerfed? (<------- also being an OTK deck that was complained about). Just accept it, you may want it nerfed, but that doesn't mean it will :)
EDIT: Btw, you fit nicely into the type of person I'm referencing in my thread about people wanting nerfs based on preference instead of actual power level ;)
You're right, animations and the fact that there's much to do about nothing after it's played. Have you...have you read any of the previous posts? I mean, be honest. Others are plainly stating the same things I am.
Did Jade Idol end a game based on it being played one time? Oh, Quest Mage, let's see, Ice Block got rotated to wild. Effectively nerfed that deck right out of tier ranking. We all complained about Ice Block, which was the problem to that, and look at that, removed from standard. (They say design space, but we all know what the straw was that broke the camel's back).
The type of person I am deviates from this discussion. Please type something more coherently relevant. But seems apparent from previous posts, not something you're attuned to.
You're right, animations and the fact that there's much to do about nothing after it's played. Have you...have you read any of the previous posts? I mean, be honest. Others are plainly stating the same things I am.
Did Jade Idol end a game based on it being played one time? Oh, Quest Mage, let's see, Ice Block got rotated to wild. Effectively nerfed that deck right out of tier ranking. We all complained about Ice Block, which was the problem to that, and look at that, removed from standard. (They say design space, but we all know what the straw was that broke the camel's back).
The type of person I am deviates from this discussion. Please type something more coherently relevant. But seems apparent from previous posts, not something you're attuned to.
Actually Ice Block was rotated out more for the reason that Burn Mage (which was extremely punishing to ANY slow deck, control and OTK alike, could drop it and continue hurling spells at face without fear of any surprise burst from the opponent's hand, nor any pressure already currently existing on board. Nice try though. :)
One thread isn't representative of everyone who posts on this site nor are the few people here representative of everyone who plays the game. I know you whiners love thinking that because you're a vocal minority that it means you represent everyone, but that is a gross exaggeration. The attempt to project your feelings and opinions onto the worldwide playerbase, or even just Hearthpwn, is a cute yet futile pursuit.
You're right, animations and the fact that there's much to do about nothing after it's played. Have you...have you read any of the previous posts? I mean, be honest. Others are plainly stating the same things I am.
Did Jade Idol end a game based on it being played one time? Oh, Quest Mage, let's see, Ice Block got rotated to wild. Effectively nerfed that deck right out of tier ranking. We all complained about Ice Block, which was the problem to that, and look at that, removed from standard. (They say design space, but we all know what the straw was that broke the camel's back).
The type of person I am deviates from this discussion. Please type something more coherently relevant. But seems apparent from previous posts, not something you're attuned to.
Actually Ice Block was rotated out more for the reason that Burn Mage (which was extremely punishing to ANY slow deck, control and OTK alike, could drop it and continue hurling spells at face without fear of any surprise burst from the opponent's hand, nor any pressure already currently existing on board. Nice try though. :)
One thread isn't representative of everyone who posts on this site nor are the few people here representative of everyone who plays the game. I know you whiners love thinking that because you're a vocal minority that it means you represent everyone, but that is a gross exaggeration. The attempt to project your feelings and opinions onto the worldwide playerbase, or even just Hearthpwn, is a cute yet futile pursuit.
Hold up, wait a second. Ice Block was rotated out more for the reason of BURN MAGE?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
DO WE EVEN PLAY THE SAME GAME? LMAO. WHAT? BURN MAGE? HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Here are the reasons Ice Block rotated out: Freeze Mage. No. just, hilariously no not Burn Mage. Oh my, that was a good laugh. Ok so, back to Freeze Mage. Ice Block was effectively able to stave off damage continually, and became more of an issue with Cabalist's Tome and Primodial Glyph being able to pull more copies. T5 was the one who stated "it limited design space". You really said Burn Mage, wow. Anything else you say has lost all accreditation just from saying that.
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Of course as a control player you typically lose to it. The deck is an OTK for crying out loud. How do people not get that ALL OTK decks by nature are intended to generally win against control. Most control decks don't run massive burst nor do they usually try to kill their opponents with burst, which ends up contributing to control generally losing to OTK further.
It is almost like people are complaining about the nature of rock-paper-scissors in a card game of aggro, midrange, control, and control (OTK).
If that's the case, why did they nerf Quest Rogue TWICE. What you are failing to understand is that there is literally NOTHING you can do once the card is played. Other OTKs at least have something that can counter it. If they put Dirty Rat back in, this wouldn't be that big an issue. But we literally have nothing that can stop it. Oh of course, aggro. Duh. Quest Rogue was the same issue. Shudderwock should be treated the same. Not sure what needs to happen to make it less polarizing vs control, but it needs to be done.
This also isn't your regular "combo" deck either. Generally, you need to assemble all the combo pieces in hand to make the OTK combo work. In this case, you just have to play the cards, which, already happens throughout the match, then play Shudderwock. You don't have to play all the cards in one turn.
Quest Rogue has nothing to do with OTKs being intended to beat most greedy decks with little to no burst. Quest Rogue isn't even an OTK deck, but a combo deck that could assemble an OTK if it held onto enough chargers and bounce effects. The deck was nerfed twice because it was polarzing due to the initial design of the card being too powerful and too easy to meet the requirements. It essentially was a miniature Naga Sea Witch deck, and it wasn't even an OTK deck.
Yeah, you're not supposed to be able to do anything once Shudderwok is played... That is basically the point in time when traditional OTK decks kill you. Why do you think you should be able to stop the combo from killing you after it has fulfilled all of its requirements? That is like asking to have a Malygos, Aviana, or Velen combo to be preventable mid cast.
So because standard is a fail format that doesn't place appropriate tech into the classic set, rotates out the only tech of its kind, and doesn't replace said tech in other expansions that means that decks that are manageable in wild should be nerfed in both formats? Pretty much sounds like you're wanting wild punished for what standard fails to do. Also, whose fault is it if there is an appropriate archtype that counters a single deck, but you simply don't want to play that archtype because of 'reasons'?
Yeah, Shudderwok isn't your typical OTK deck because it doesn't need to hold onto most of its pieces for the whole game. However, Frost Lich Jaina, Deathstalker Rexxar, Double Dead Man's Hand, and Jade Idol, while not OTK cards, did all deviate significantly from what control used to be defined as (ie it created what a lot of players now call "infinite value". None of those cards were nerfed for significantly changing the control pattern, I see no reason why Shudderwok needs to be changed for breaking the OTK pattern. Now that doesn't mean I what most OTK decks to function like Shudderwok (An Aviana or Malygos style deck that worked like that could potentially be devastating), but considering that Shudderwok shaman is far from clawing its way up to tier 1 in either format I am fine with Shudderwok staying as is.
Obviously Quest Rogue has nothing to do with OTKs. Did I ever make that comparison? No. I simply said that Shudderwock should be treated the same way Quest Rogue was. Because they both have the same issues. Once each card is played, there was almost literally nothing you can do. Shudderwock is just as easy to "meet the requirements".
Obviously you can't do anything once a deck has played it's OTK. But as i've stated many times, if you read my post, that there is LITERALLY NOTHING YOU CAN DO to stop just Shudderwock(One card btw). Uh, Malygos you can counter with counterspell to stop one of it's spells being casted. Also, playing Malygos requires to have all the combo pieces in your hand. Again, as I said, Shudderwock does not require all the combo pieces to be in hand to be played in one turn. Aviana is in wild. She doesn't matter. Whole different ball game of wild. Velen OTK still requires multiple cards to be in hand to do the OTK combo. Oh and about traditional OTKs, you're supposed to be able to be able to have some sort of answer before it's played. With Shudderwock, there is NO answer to stop it from being played, before it's played, and after it's played.
Please don't drag wild into this as a counter. That's a weak argument. Find something else to argue with. And the reason why wild is a weak argument, is because all the answers and multiple expansions are there. No one cares about wild. It's simply not that important. And before you say "yes it is", do they hold world tournaments for wild? Prize, cash money? Do other card games allow banned cards to be playable in tournaments? No? Ok. Nuff with wild comparison.
So, again, I use Quest Rogue as an example. Yet again. Let me break it down so you can understand better. Quest Rogue was Tier 2-3 pre-nerf the 1st time. What was it's counter? That's riiiiiiiiiiiight. You guessed it. Aggro. Did Quest Rogue have a high W/R? Nope. Did it get nerfed? Yep. Twice. Does it make sense yet? The problem isn't that it doesn't have an archetype to beat it. The problem is there is nothing you can do to stop Shudderwock once it's played. I don't know how many times I have to say that to make it apparent.
Frost Lich Jaina, Deathstalker Rexxar, Dead Man's Hand, and Jade Idol are weak arguments. They did not and do not automatically end the game when they're played. There are still turns and still hope that the player, playing against the person who used those cards, still have a chance. So no to that. Next.
Again, Quest Rogue was not Tier 1. Yet because of how polarizing the match became once the quest was played, was the reason for the initial nerf. Yes it was easy to finish the quest. Considering we're in a control meta, it's just as easy as Shudderwock Shaman to be able to prolong the match enough time to play a few battlecry minions then draw their Shudderwock. Hemet more so recently becoming a thing, making it that much easier to pull off.
So you're fine with only one counter existing to counter Malygos decks (Counterspell), but you aren't fine with 2 cards countering Shudderwok (Gnomeferatu & Howlfiend)? Okay then, very flawed comparison.
Nobody cares about wild? LMAO, plenty of wild streamers hated NSW and they were among the most prominent activists that got T5 to actually nerf a wild-only card? And just because wild isn't the prominent tournament scene that hands out cash prizes in Oprah Winfrey fashion doesn't mean there aren't tournaments and that people don't care about the format. That is a very naive statement and exposes just how little you know about the format. Dane, a wild streamer who even posts decks onto this website, actually was one of the participants in a tournament that progressed in chronological order through the various expansions and adventures that were released, having participants create decks that were only possible to construct during those various points in the game's life. How about we go to the very many youtube highlight channels. Ever see Hysteria, Happy, Towellie, etc showcasing a wide array of clips where they successfully carry out a crazy combo? Yep, obviously the format is so shunned that all of these wild-only clips aren't ending up on multiple youtube channels on a weekly, sometimes daily, basis. Next time keep your posts limited to what you actual have accurate knowledge of :)
And yes, wild should be considered when balancing some cards, considering that we've already had a wild-only card that only saw play in meme decks just so that standard locks could get fed yet another board clear.
The infinite value cards I mentioned earlier was in response to your complaints about Shudderwok breaking the mold of the traditional OTK model, not bringing them up to compare relative power between them and Shudderwok (Reading comprehension I know). The point was that those infinite value cards weren't nerfed for breaking the mold of the control archtype so why is Shudderwok breaking the mold of the OTK archtype so outrageous when it doesn't even boost the deck to an ungodly status.
This might be a hard concept so listen close; more control decks might win more often against Shudderwok if they actually either ran actual burst or stopped treating the match-up like a normal slow attrition-based game and instead shifted game plans early on to be aggressive. The exact same flaws in how to treat games where you are on a clock happened with Jade Druid back in the day. So many people complained that it killed control and yet many of those players still treated the match-up as a game where they would somehow win by playing slow. The actual successful control players beat many more Jade Druids as control by smorcing it up as best they could with their control cards (even if it meant playing minions less value efficiently and went for tempo minions instead). How do you think more control players beat Shudderwok decks in standard today? It isn't just the situations where the shaman has Shudderwok in the last 5 cards of their deck I can tell you that. It is all about not committing too much into volcano, but having enough pressure where the shaman can't always easily drop things like Grumble for a 7 mana do nothing turn.
Back to the Quest Rogue and Shudderwok comparison. The two polarizing effects of those decks on their respective metas are very different. You can't just say; "Those both make control lose so obviously they both meet requirements for major reworking." Quest Rogue was nerfed because it was way overtuned for a mere combo deck that was not an OTK deck. In fact, as I mentioned, the deck was a combo that was was so good in its quest reward of creating 5/5s that it more or less had a hidden alternate win condition of a large burst combo if you had your resources. In addition, the combo was already active around turn 5, give or take a turn. That did not allow even tempo played minions in control decks to actually pressure the rogue player like you can pressure Shudderwok shamans. Shudderwok shamans in comparison have no burst outside of the OTK and can be pressurred by control.
TL;DR: Quest Rogue was nerfed due to the polarizing effects of being overtuned for what a non-OTK combo deck should be able to do by turn 5. Shudderwok is polarizing naturally because OTKs naturally counter control decks (and because the designers fail at balancing the standard format with appropriate soft counters after rotations).
Oh look, a clueless player who thinks that an aggro deck was an OTK deck.
There's a reason why it was nerfed twice, because of how easy it was to get Crystal Caverns. You basically bounced a Stonetusk Boar with Shadowstep twice, bounce it with Gadgetzan Ferryman, Prep, Crystal Caverns, and you have the combo on turn THREE. Hyper-aggro decks like Pirate Warrior and Murlocadin were having issues slowing it down. It's been nerfed TWICE for that reason, because even AGGRO was losing to it when the combo was activated early enough.
Not sure if you meant to quote me in that post or not. In that post I was talking about Shudderwok Shaman, not Quest Rogue at that point. I know that Quest Rogue is not an OTK. It actually isn't an aggro deck either considering that the purpose of the deck is to combo bounce cards with one or more 1-2 drops repeatedly. The deck doesn't even pressure until the quest is complete (which is quite the opposite of an aggro deck).
Just make saronite chain gang summon another 2/3 with taunt. “May be a nerf to buff pally” or “They will run doppelgangster instead” well, theres more counterplay in wild so doppelgangster interaction is meh, and for buff pally, why tf would you be playing buff pally.
Shudderwock is a boring deck to play against and play, can’t understand how anyone can support it when its literally more brainless than odd paladin. You don’t even have control over the combo, if grumble triggers before saronites then good job idiot, you wasted everybody’s time. If the combo goes off, good job idiot, now you’re wasting your own time.
Grumble is not a loss of tempo. It's a 6 mana 7/7. Blizzard explicitly set up the Shudderwock combo by introducing Lifedinker alongside. It is in wild with Doppleganster and Evolve. I don't really see a problem with the card, but there are other ways to utilize it than a prolonged combo deck.
Let me rephrase that "no one cares" about wild and expand on it since it clearly went over your head. Blizzard, or T5 rather, don't really care that much about wild. Sure, it every once in a while sees some kind of maintenance or nerf to a wild only card, but only very very rarely. Obviously there are going to be people who stream and post videos on YouTube regarding wild as a preference of play. That's blatantly obvious. My statement was more geared towards the fact that standard is really only the format we need to regard when nerfing a card. Since standard practically dictates when a card gets nerfed. Not the other way around. TL;DR: Standard dictates the nerfs and wild doesn't dictate whether it should or shouldn't be nerfed, since it can just be un-nerfed when it gets to wild. e.g. Molten Giant. Does that make sense to you or should I paraphrase it just for you?
So no wild should not be considered when nerfing a card since it can be un-nerfed after it's rotated out of standard. Moving on.
Infinite Value and Shudderwock breaking the mold, again, is not the problem. Sure, they break the mold. Yippe. Cool. Let's get over that. It's a different kind of OTK. Difference still being, one ends the game once it's played, and the other doesn't. Again, Quest Rogue wasn't on a ungodly status either. Can you make a more relevant comparison? Because honestly, it doesn't seem to be your strong suite.
Let me paraphrase more for you, since explanations and to the actual point of the issue, goes over your head. If we're speaking on a "on the clock" type of situation until Shudderwock is played, Jade Idol is not a great comparison. Let's look at exhibit A.) Razakus Priest. Although nearing it's life expectancy, Raza was nerfed due to the combo. Why was that nerfed? Right, because once it was played, and having the DK, it was practically over. Just like, that's right you guessed it, Shudderwock. What was it's only counter? That's riiiight, aggro. Did it end games by turn 5? Nope. Was it still nerfed? Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssss it was.
More or less had a hidden win alternative? Quest Rogue? What? It was literally to finish the Quest and run your 5/5s to face. That was the main and only win condition. It was nerfed for reasons A.) unless you were playing aggro, you didn't beat Quest Rogue who finished their Quest. B.) the Quest was easy to complete by turn 5. Initially. Not because "it was overtuned". No. The reason was plain and simple. Once quest was complete, you had little to no chance of winning against it. It's the same reason it was nerfed a second time.
I hope that made some sense to you because, it's really simple. TL;DR: Quest Rogue each time it was nerfed, in it's meta time, and Shudderwock in this meta, provide the same issue. I'm going to leave this discussion at that because apparently the point i'm making is lost on you.
yes- they did something similar to the druid quest, changed how faceless interacted with it, which ended up being a huge loss of power to the deck, but wasn't technically a nerf to the quest card itself. Changing it to "summon an additional copy of Saronite Chain Gang" would be perfect. It would a open up a lot of interesting avenues to use shutterwok instead of the stupid infinite one mana fiesta it is now.
Why should we nerf shudderwock?
Shall we nerf all OTK decks then?
Shudderwock are fine. Its so slow. And if the player has bad draw they lose. Allways
Since you seem to be misunderstanding most of the points I already re-explained I'll just leave it at this.
Shudderwok should not be nerfed because it beats control. It is an OTK deck and ALL OTK decks are designed to win against control by playing against their slow greedy nature. This isn't just a Shudderwok problem. If we had a different powerful OTK it would still be beating control, especially since there is no dirty rat or soft counter in standard atm. This isn't a Shudderwok problem, it is a people complaining that an archtype that naturally counters that archtype problem.
And considering the deck is not dominating the meta and T5 hasn't nerfed it it looks like you're not getting your way anyway.
There's a major difference between all other OTK decks and Shudderwock. In all other otk decks you need a ton of cards in your hand. In the Shudderwock deck you just need to play those before playing that ONE CARD, you won't be stuck with cards in hand.
Also, the loss rate is so high because it's very sensible to aggro, and the meta has plenty of that ( secret mage, odd paladin, and so on and on ), but play a control deck and it's useless, and mid-range sort of equals it.
So, practically, playing control is not an option anymore because of Shudderwock. I don't think that's ok at all.
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Being able to play your pieces from hand vs not being able to play your pieces from hand doesn't change the fact that the control deck is going to lose either way. I have no idea why people keep bringing this point up as if it actually changes what the outcome is for control in either situation. Consistent OTKs almost always beat control decks hands-down. This is why I say that people are confusing a Shudderwok problem with an OTK vs Control problem.
There's Druid Malygos OTK but no one is complaining bout that. Buuuut ok. Surely on archetype then. Quest Rogue wasn't dominating in it's meta, but, still nerfed twice. So yeah, let's use "not dominating meta" as a platform for an argument. Only a matter of time until it gets nerfed.
Actually most people I see complaining about Shudderwok still complains about the animations, not the winrate.
You mean how Jade Idol got nerfed? ;) Or how about how Quest Mage got nerfed? (<------- also being an OTK deck that was complained about). Just accept it, you may want it nerfed, but that doesn't mean it will :)
EDIT: Btw, you fit nicely into the type of person I'm referencing in my thread about people wanting nerfs based on preference instead of actual power level ;)
You're right, animations and the fact that there's much to do about nothing after it's played. Have you...have you read any of the previous posts? I mean, be honest. Others are plainly stating the same things I am.
Did Jade Idol end a game based on it being played one time? Oh, Quest Mage, let's see, Ice Block got rotated to wild. Effectively nerfed that deck right out of tier ranking. We all complained about Ice Block, which was the problem to that, and look at that, removed from standard. (They say design space, but we all know what the straw was that broke the camel's back).
The type of person I am deviates from this discussion. Please type something more coherently relevant. But seems apparent from previous posts, not something you're attuned to.
Actually Ice Block was rotated out more for the reason that Burn Mage (which was extremely punishing to ANY slow deck, control and OTK alike, could drop it and continue hurling spells at face without fear of any surprise burst from the opponent's hand, nor any pressure already currently existing on board. Nice try though. :)
One thread isn't representative of everyone who posts on this site nor are the few people here representative of everyone who plays the game. I know you whiners love thinking that because you're a vocal minority that it means you represent everyone, but that is a gross exaggeration. The attempt to project your feelings and opinions onto the worldwide playerbase, or even just Hearthpwn, is a cute yet futile pursuit.
Hold up, wait a second. Ice Block was rotated out more for the reason of BURN MAGE?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
DO WE EVEN PLAY THE SAME GAME? LMAO. WHAT? BURN MAGE? HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Here are the reasons Ice Block rotated out: Freeze Mage. No. just, hilariously no not Burn Mage. Oh my, that was a good laugh. Ok so, back to Freeze Mage. Ice Block was effectively able to stave off damage continually, and became more of an issue with Cabalist's Tome and Primodial Glyph being able to pull more copies. T5 was the one who stated "it limited design space". You really said Burn Mage, wow. Anything else you say has lost all accreditation just from saying that.