You don't have to be so dense about it. The point isn't that the issues happen in wild/last year standard, those are just examples of how strong discover can be and how they limit the power level of cards you can have. There's a reason you can only have one copy of a legendary per deck, discovering one or two extra during a game can be very toxic to the game. Now imagine if next expansion blizzard goes again with "we want to make an overpowered card on purpose to push an archetype into the meta", say another strong mage secret or powerful taunt, and you had discover in lots of other cards, suddenly that card becomes a problem.
Don't you think there's a reason for them to drastically cut out the amount of discover cards? Mean Streets had 6, with Drakonid Operative and Kabal Courier being played in almost every deck that could run it, Journey to Un'Goro had 11 and very problematic ones like Stonehill Defender and Primordial Glyph. Knights of the Frozen throne only had 2, Stitched Tracker which is generally balanced, and Eternal Servitude which brought us the infamous Big Priest, Kobolds and Catacombs only gave us Runespear, which is mostly unplayable, and Witchwood only had two, Arcane Keysmith which is clearly the reason why Ice Block had to be rotated, and Blazing Invocation that also barely sees any play.
And please, not because a format isn't "competitive" it means it has to be an unbalanced shitfest. Even if you don't care about those, blizzard has come long ways trying to make them more competitive (lots of efforts around balancing arena and making the arena leaderboard, nerfs and balance changes for cards in wilds plus more support in general for wild), so pretending they don't exist in terms of balancing for blizzard is just a bad scapegoat argument.
Obviously the point was that the discover mechanic is broken, and I stated as much, that it's not. The only reason why discover is even an issue to some, is because the randomness that people lose to. Right now standard has a much smaller card pool, and with Witchwood being underpowered, it's not hard for discover to grab something good. Spiteful Summoner for example, the pool is small for 10 mana, making it OP. Nerfing it didn't really do anything, and people have complained as such. Cost was never the problem. The general pool is. Yes obviously there's a reason to having only one of each legendary per deck. Obviously. But, at times, even when discovering a legendary, sometimes isn't even the best choice.
They drastically cut the amount of discover cards more than likely for other reasons, such as, thematically, they're trying other mechanics out to fit the themes. Such as Echo and rush(although we've had rush, in a sense). If discover is part of the next theme, then we just may see more of it. Stonehill Defender is an issue yet again apparently (in standard) due to the small card pool. Just like when Journey to Un'Goro was first released. It sure wasn't an issue afterwards now was it? Was anyone really complaining about Stonehill during Knights of the Frozen Throne or Kobolds and Catacombs? No. Primordial Glyph is an issue due to the discount it gives while already being a cheap mana cost. Arcane Keysmith was CLEARLYnot the reason why Ice Block had to be rotated. It's more like because Ice Block was rotated, they can make other cards such as keysmith. Please educate yourself on Freeze Mage even before Primordial Glyph was a thing. Blazing Invocation doesn't see play for two reasons, A.) It's not attached to a body and B.) Battlecry minions aren't that OP and generally you pull something you don't need and isn't specific enough (IE: elemental battecry minions, etc.)
More like because standard is a competitive format and holds things such as tournaments, that it withholds from being limited like other game modes it has. Balancing arena was an obvious thing for Blizzard to do. Due to the obvious low power levels of decks built, but when someone rngs a (for example, not literally) fledgling into the deck, it's harder to deal with. Leader boards were added because people wanted to see their progress, and that their money spent to even play arena, is going towards a goal of some sort. Balance changes for wild was obviously needed considering Naga Sea Witch was horribly OP and they ignored it for too long as it was. But, still, neither arena or wild are competitive formats that are held on a tournament plateau that involves winning money and such. There are problems with standard, don't get me wrong, but discover isn't one of them. No one is pretending anything. If we didn't have either arena or wild, standard would be the same.
I think the fairest "nerf" to discover is to tweak the preferential to class cards... Probably still have class cards slightly more, but not at the rate we are seeing it at the moment.
I like the idea of getting to choose one of the three quasi-random cards. As a mechanic it is very nice, and adds almost a "Tech" layer. However I do agree with most peoples idea that at the moment it (Stonehill seems to be the most usually target) can get some quite strong cards (tarim and tirion) a bit too frequently.
I like the fact that it can grab legendaries and it shouldn't restrict this aspect, but I think the issue here is it (Stonehill) is grabbing class cards too frequently. I am pretty sure it is common to get a choice between righteous protector, tarim and tirion for example.
Instead of this occuring, what if we had only slightly more chance of seeing tarim as say Lich King, this wouldn't be that op then...
Anyway that is my two cents about this, let me know if anyone agrees, or if this too drastic in one direction or the other.
I agree to an extent. Class card pull should be more normalized to have an even percentage of what it pulls from other classes as well as neutral cards. We're yet again at a time where Stonehill Defender's taunt pool is small, and grabbing multiple Tarims is possible, just like when Un'Goro first launched.
Yeah I agree. What I meant is that class cards should be a tiny bit more likely then not class cards (to maintain the theme), but not so likely as it is.
In essence: If we have say 14 cards: (3 class, 11 neutral) neutrals: 7% (7 x 11 = 77) class: 8% ( 8 x 3 = 24)
Sure in my example we have a case where total = > 100%, but something more like this (fine tuning required).
I think that currently class vs neutrals, is like something ridiculous. Anyway,
I agree that Discover can be a problematic mechanic, but it really depends on the cards it is tied to. When Discover cards are too cheap, it feels like your opponent sacrifices nothing for that extra card in his hand and that extra flexibility.
Jeweled Scarab or Tomb Spider were never really problematic, because they were relatively expensive for that special benefit. Stonehill Defender is a neutral Silverback Patriarch + I Know a Guy. When you combine two mediocre cards into one card without increasing the cost, there is not much of a downside. Silverback Patriarch itself is terrible, but a 1/4 with Taunt is not "nothing". Primordial Glyph takes that very powerful discover effect for Mage, but makes it effectively cost 0. And Drakonid Operative was simply ridiculous.
Discover effects shouldn't feel like a better card draw mechanic with some extra unfairness mixed in, they should feel like you play a bad card to replace it with something that suits the situation. Flexibility for a price, like most of Druids "choose one" effects. When Discover cards are made way too efficient to always benefit you, they become problematic.
I disagree with the OP, discover is a very fun mechanic. Yes, there is annoying RNG. Yes, there are balancing issues that should get resolved (i.e. Paladin pool of taunts for Stonehill Defender). But those are specific issues that should be addressed, rather than nerfing the entire mechanic that accounts for a major chunk of game replayability. If anything, the solution is more discover cards imo, to level the playing field and give other classes/builds more ways to catch up after unfortunate RNG, not to ban it. Look at how fun Burgle Rogue is, for example. We need more builds like that, in my opinion, not less. It's what makes this game interesting, otherwise the whole thing simply degrades to chess.
Discover is fine when the pool of cards to choose from is appropriately sized. Too large, and it might as well be totally random. Too small and one overly strong card in the pool can completely break it. In general, I am fine with the mechanic and think it's really good for the game. Specific card pools are way off though. Build-a-Beast feels like the right size. Stonehill Defender in Paladin is too small. Hallucination is in my opinion too large of a pool, and might as well be random.
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I'm not even arguing in favor of nerfing discover, just that it should be tweaked some, it's just pretty ridiculous to believe that it's a perfect mechanic without flaws and that it doesn't have an effect in game design at all. And that "yeah let's wait for bigger cardpools", does that mean that whenever there is a rotation we have to enjoy 1, almost 2 whole expansions of very consistent and potentially busted rng then? And that whenever a more specific type of discover card is made it'll become a problematic card during that period, like Stonehill Defender, or for naturally small pools like dragons and spells? Like when anyfin paladin was in standard alongside ivory knight and sometimes you had to survive 3 or even 4 anyfin is possible, does that mean we're forced to have unbalanced decks every time a strong/specific discover card is made? Or that they'll have to balance the amount and type of cards in the pools around discover so it's not broken? Or just print discover cards that are mostly too weak and uninteresting to see any play?
I'm not saying discover isn't a fun mechanic, but that doesn't mean it's power level should go unnoticed, it's not just some rng, most of the time it's controlled rng that you can always choose the better outcome for, even if you get 3 bad choices you can still choose the best of the worst, instead of just outright getting the worst possible card, which is what tends to make pure rng effects more balanced, like getting shatter from cabbalist tome vs getting it from primordial glyph.
The problem with Discover mechanic is that it favors Class cards, which are four times more likely to show up than neutral cards. This means whenever if there's a relevant Discover card around, class cards cannot be strong. For instance:
No.
The problem with Discover is that it doesn't account for rarity. It should though. The inflation of legendaries generated by Stonhill Defender is completeley over the top, would be way cooler from a game design perspective to consider the rarity of cards. Thus, legendaries, epics and rares would remain legendary, epic and rare.
There is also the opportunity to design cards that discover cards of a specific commonality.
I think Discover was created so new players can get to play with cards they don’t own yet. If you own Tarim and also discover then you get more help and have an advantage but noobs can still get lucky and win vs experienced players. Everyone relies on discover as a way out of certain situation and does seem unfair to the losing player. it’s a way for devs to keep the game accessible to beginners
Well this is just stupid. The very idea of nerfing a mechanic is ridiculous. not only is it a nerf to all previous cards with the mechanic, a much easier way around this is to just nerf the problem cards. Just because you dont like primordial glyph doesnt mean that discover is broken.
Additionally, mechanics that are to easy to abuse (like charge) can be phased out over time. WW just introduced rush, and like it or not, its a more elegant solution than bricking every charge card ever printed.
To say that discover should be nerfed is a little bit like saying lifesteal should be nerfed because of the gul'dan hero power or that divine shield should be nerfed because righteous protector is a great card.
Discover is the best mechanic in the game. It's probably the closest thing to a side-board we'll ever get.
Against Control? Discover a beefy/high-value minion or a hard removal. Against aggro? Discover a defensive minion or a board clear.
The mechanic is flexible, not blatantly over-powered, and is skill-testing. Of all the problematic mechanics to call for nerfs (charge, jades) discover is probably the 2nd lowest on the list, right above Inspire (which probably could have used a buff).
Look at the odds for a paladin to get a legendary option from a Stonehill; with small pools, you end up with reliable, high power cards discovered. There's a reason Odd paladin plays so many Tarims. Easy access to extra good legendaries for some classes makes it wonky, particularly in Arena, where you wouldn't normally expect Tirions. That is purely caused by a lack of class taunts - and that oversight makes the mechanic feel broken.
yes bu this meta is the last time Stonehill will see play, stonehill used to discover a bunch of tirions and ttarims during un'goro and phased out of existance once KofT was released, it's the same rn, as soon as another expac comes out the card pool will be large enough to balance things out , then he'll rotate in the first expansion of next year and don't even dare saying that he'll be a problem in wild because no, he won't, there are way too many trashy taunt minions from the pre'ungoro era when blizzard used to think that overpricing taunt was a genius a idea, diluting the pool
Before anything, this is just my personal feeling, it may not be objective truth.
The problem with Discover mechanic is that it favors Class cards, which are four times more likely to show up than neutral cards. This means whenever if there's a relevant Discover card around, class cards cannot be strong. For instance:
Ice Block - While people complain about the non-interactivity of the card, they never complained about it being OP...not until Discover and Cabalist's Tome starts producing 3rd, 4th or even 5th Ice Blocks.
Duskbreaker - I've seen many people complaining about this card, and the most common response is "Wait until Netherspite Historian rotates out". The same can be said about Dr. OP Drakonid Operative, two copies are fine, four copies? Not so much.
Stonehill Defender is another card like this, with Paladin being the worst offender before Righteous Protector came into being. This card still is very good now through, who doesn't like getting smacked by a board of 3/3 dudes fighting Odd Paladin.
So what do you think? Personally, I think Discover, in its attempt to limit RNG of the game, is way too overpowered. The pool of cards it offers should be like Arena, with bias towards certain cards, and the very best cards only show up once in a blue moon.
Ice Block is wild only now. Don't see it ruining standard anymore.
Duskbreaker is good, but only 2 copies in standard. Same goes for Drakonid Operative.
Stonehill is a very strong card, OP though, not really.
Seems like most of the issues you're having with the discover mechanic is only really relative to wild.
Discover RNG shouldn't be restricted like arena. Only due to the reason of the card pool being selective to each format it's in. Seems more so problematic in Wild. Standard is fine.
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ABSOLUTELY Discover needs a nerf. I think the best nerf would be to do exactly as the op said. Make the cards you get to choose from TRULY random and not have class bias.
Shadow Visions is one of my favorite cards. So fucking versatile, going to be so sad when it rotates. It's the best discover card in my opinion because it's a random three spells from your own deck, so the card can be reliable and benefits from good deckbuilding. It can be used early to get something you'll need later, to answer something your opponent just did, or you can hold it to find a combo piece later on after seeing what you draw in the next few turns.
Stonehill Defender definitely needs some tweaking or something. It might as well say "Add one Tirion Fordring or Sunkeeper Tarim" to your hand. I did a paladin run in arena and I got one of them four out of five times I played the card, and the other time I got The Lich King.
Look at how successful Explore Un'Goro has been, then come back to me.
The problem is not Discover, but individual class cards and the parameters given for what is Discovered by each card with the Discover effect attached.
I'd argue that the Discover mechanic only seems overpowered due to the small card-pool in rotation. Even then, I still don't consider the mechanic to be OP at all.
I'd argue that the Discover mechanic only seems overpowered due to the small card-pool in rotation. Even then, I still don't consider the mechanic to be OP at all.
Things like Stonehill Defender still have way too much of a class bias for a class that has only 3 class taunts. Even in wild paladns get Tarim or Tyrion a huge number of times. You shouldn't get a very decent class legendary minion that consistently for only 3 mana, and being able to do up to 2 times in constructed or more in arena. That card is often the illusion of the pally having to make a choice, which seems counterintuitive to what discover is supposed to be as a mechanic.
Either introduce more mediocre or bad cards to certain card pools (such as paladin taunts) or favor neutrals to class cards when possible (by a 60 to 40 or 70 to 30 ratio).
I think maybe it would be better if you could not discover a card you already run 2 of in your deck. (Or 1 for legendaries)
Yeah I agree. What I meant is that class cards should be a tiny bit more likely then not class cards (to maintain the theme), but not so likely as it is.
In essence: If we have say 14 cards: (3 class, 11 neutral)
neutrals: 7% (7 x 11 = 77)
class: 8% ( 8 x 3 = 24)
Sure in my example we have a case where total = > 100%, but something more like this (fine tuning required).
I think that currently class vs neutrals, is like something ridiculous. Anyway,
I agree that Discover can be a problematic mechanic, but it really depends on the cards it is tied to. When Discover cards are too cheap, it feels like your opponent sacrifices nothing for that extra card in his hand and that extra flexibility.
Jeweled Scarab or Tomb Spider were never really problematic, because they were relatively expensive for that special benefit. Stonehill Defender is a neutral Silverback Patriarch + I Know a Guy. When you combine two mediocre cards into one card without increasing the cost, there is not much of a downside. Silverback Patriarch itself is terrible, but a 1/4 with Taunt is not "nothing". Primordial Glyph takes that very powerful discover effect for Mage, but makes it effectively cost 0. And Drakonid Operative was simply ridiculous.
Discover effects shouldn't feel like a better card draw mechanic with some extra unfairness mixed in, they should feel like you play a bad card to replace it with something that suits the situation. Flexibility for a price, like most of Druids "choose one" effects. When Discover cards are made way too efficient to always benefit you, they become problematic.
I disagree with the OP, discover is a very fun mechanic. Yes, there is annoying RNG. Yes, there are balancing issues that should get resolved (i.e. Paladin pool of taunts for Stonehill Defender). But those are specific issues that should be addressed, rather than nerfing the entire mechanic that accounts for a major chunk of game replayability. If anything, the solution is more discover cards imo, to level the playing field and give other classes/builds more ways to catch up after unfortunate RNG, not to ban it. Look at how fun Burgle Rogue is, for example. We need more builds like that, in my opinion, not less. It's what makes this game interesting, otherwise the whole thing simply degrades to chess.
This thread is not "Discover - It Should Be Nerfed".
It's "Stonehill Defender - It Should Be Nerfed".
Because it should be.
Discover is fine when the pool of cards to choose from is appropriately sized. Too large, and it might as well be totally random. Too small and one overly strong card in the pool can completely break it. In general, I am fine with the mechanic and think it's really good for the game. Specific card pools are way off though. Build-a-Beast feels like the right size. Stonehill Defender in Paladin is too small. Hallucination is in my opinion too large of a pool, and might as well be random.
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I'm not even arguing in favor of nerfing discover, just that it should be tweaked some, it's just pretty ridiculous to believe that it's a perfect mechanic without flaws and that it doesn't have an effect in game design at all. And that "yeah let's wait for bigger cardpools", does that mean that whenever there is a rotation we have to enjoy 1, almost 2 whole expansions of very consistent and potentially busted rng then? And that whenever a more specific type of discover card is made it'll become a problematic card during that period, like Stonehill Defender, or for naturally small pools like dragons and spells? Like when anyfin paladin was in standard alongside ivory knight and sometimes you had to survive 3 or even 4 anyfin is possible, does that mean we're forced to have unbalanced decks every time a strong/specific discover card is made? Or that they'll have to balance the amount and type of cards in the pools around discover so it's not broken? Or just print discover cards that are mostly too weak and uninteresting to see any play?
I'm not saying discover isn't a fun mechanic, but that doesn't mean it's power level should go unnoticed, it's not just some rng, most of the time it's controlled rng that you can always choose the better outcome for, even if you get 3 bad choices you can still choose the best of the worst, instead of just outright getting the worst possible card, which is what tends to make pure rng effects more balanced, like getting shatter from cabbalist tome vs getting it from primordial glyph.
No.
The problem with Discover is that it doesn't account for rarity. It should though. The inflation of legendaries generated by Stonhill Defender is completeley over the top, would be way cooler from a game design perspective to consider the rarity of cards. Thus, legendaries, epics and rares would remain legendary, epic and rare.
There is also the opportunity to design cards that discover cards of a specific commonality.
I think Discover was created so new players can get to play with cards they don’t own yet. If you own Tarim and also discover then you get more help and have an advantage but noobs can still get lucky and win vs experienced players. Everyone relies on discover as a way out of certain situation and does seem unfair to the losing player. it’s a way for devs to keep the game accessible to beginners
While we're on this topic, I feel that Rogue needs "discover a hero card" card to help burgle rogue with mirror matchups.
Discover is the closest this game have to a sideboard, need more not less.
Well this is just stupid. The very idea of nerfing a mechanic is ridiculous. not only is it a nerf to all previous cards with the mechanic, a much easier way around this is to just nerf the problem cards. Just because you dont like primordial glyph doesnt mean that discover is broken.
Additionally, mechanics that are to easy to abuse (like charge) can be phased out over time. WW just introduced rush, and like it or not, its a more elegant solution than bricking every charge card ever printed.
To say that discover should be nerfed is a little bit like saying lifesteal should be nerfed because of the gul'dan hero power or that divine shield should be nerfed because righteous protector is a great card.
yes bu this meta is the last time Stonehill will see play, stonehill used to discover a bunch of tirions and ttarims during un'goro and phased out of existance once KofT was released, it's the same rn, as soon as another expac comes out the card pool will be large enough to balance things out , then he'll rotate in the first expansion of next year and don't even dare saying that he'll be a problem in wild because no, he won't, there are way too many trashy taunt minions from the pre'ungoro era when blizzard used to think that overpricing taunt was a genius a idea, diluting the pool
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ABSOLUTELY Discover needs a nerf. I think the best nerf would be to do exactly as the op said. Make the cards you get to choose from TRULY random and not have class bias.
Shadow Visions is one of my favorite cards. So fucking versatile, going to be so sad when it rotates. It's the best discover card in my opinion because it's a random three spells from your own deck, so the card can be reliable and benefits from good deckbuilding. It can be used early to get something you'll need later, to answer something your opponent just did, or you can hold it to find a combo piece later on after seeing what you draw in the next few turns.
Stonehill Defender definitely needs some tweaking or something. It might as well say "Add one Tirion Fordring or Sunkeeper Tarim" to your hand. I did a paladin run in arena and I got one of them four out of five times I played the card, and the other time I got The Lich King.
Look at how successful Explore Un'Goro has been, then come back to me.
The problem is not Discover, but individual class cards and the parameters given for what is Discovered by each card with the Discover effect attached.
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I'd argue that the Discover mechanic only seems overpowered due to the small card-pool in rotation. Even then, I still don't consider the mechanic to be OP at all.
Primordial glyph is still absolute BS, especially in arena.
Things like Stonehill Defender still have way too much of a class bias for a class that has only 3 class taunts. Even in wild paladns get Tarim or Tyrion a huge number of times. You shouldn't get a very decent class legendary minion that consistently for only 3 mana, and being able to do up to 2 times in constructed or more in arena. That card is often the illusion of the pally having to make a choice, which seems counterintuitive to what discover is supposed to be as a mechanic.
Either introduce more mediocre or bad cards to certain card pools (such as paladin taunts) or favor neutrals to class cards when possible (by a 60 to 40 or 70 to 30 ratio).