Before anything, this is just my personal feeling, it may not be objective truth.
The problem with Discover mechanic is that it favors Class cards, which are four times more likely to show up than neutral cards. This means whenever if there's a relevant Discover card around, class cards cannot be strong. For instance:
Ice Block - While people complain about the non-interactivity of the card, they never complained about it being OP...not until Discover and Cabalist's Tome starts producing 3rd, 4th or even 5th Ice Blocks.
Duskbreaker - I've seen many people complaining about this card, and the most common response is "Wait until Netherspite Historian rotates out". The same can be said about Dr. OP Drakonid Operative, two copies are fine, four copies? Not so much.
Stonehill Defender is another card like this, with Paladin being the worst offender before Righteous Protector came into being. This card still is very good now through, who doesn't like getting smacked by a board of 3/3 dudes fighting Odd Paladin.
So what do you think? Personally, I think Discover, in its attempt to limit RNG of the game, is way too overpowered. The pool of cards it offers should be like Arena, with bias towards certain cards, and the very best cards only show up once in a blue moon.
Discover is fun. It's not going away, nor should it. RNG is what Hearthstone is all about and Blizz must cater to players that aren't so great. They want to win too and it's the only way.
HOWEVER, Stonehill Defender is definitely OP. I guess it needs to cost 4-mana instead? I'm okay with it though, unless of course it pulls Tarim for an Odd Pally :P
I've actually thought about this problem a lot of having discover effects provide the player with multiple copies of good cards in one match, or providing the choice between an obvious pick in the pool vs subpar selections.
I feel that this is where pack fillers actually do provide a purpose. It feels bad for the opponent when a mage gets a discover selection and all three cards are very good choices. If you produce more subpar, or occasionally even bad cards, then the mage might have to make a selection that isn't automatic and then it is up to them to find out how to best make use of it instead of of 'Derp, 3rd Fireball, Ice Block, Pyro, Poly, me so skilled!'
Paladin is very much in need of this imo. Considering that paladin has almost no class taunts except for very powerful legendaries it ends up quite staggering how often paladins pull another Tarim or a Tirion. Discover should involve skillful selections not polarizing choices between godly and crap picks. Petition T5 to give paladin more okay class taunts to water down the pool a little.
Discover is an absolutely GREAT mechanic. I'd love to see more like it.
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I'm a humble and friendly european indie living in Asia. During the day I build computer games. During the night, I am batma I build computer games. Together with a wonderful artist, I help run this very unique comic site : Comic Devs
I don't mind Discover Mage seems to be the big culprit I'd say being able to get 3, 4 or 5 Ice Blocks in a game is pretty bs as the OP said. But as a whole the mechanic seems fine just Mage had way too many good cards to Discover in Standard so I'd assume that's why Ice Block rotated. Lot of the issues seemed to have been resolved with rotating sets/hof anyway.
Before anything, this is just my personal feeling, it may not be objective truth.
The problem with Discover mechanic is that it favors Class cards, which are four times more likely to show up than neutral cards. This means whenever if there's a relevant Discover card around, class cards cannot be strong. For instance:
Ice Block - While people complain about the non-interactivity of the card, they never complained about it being OP...not until Discover and Cabalist's Tome starts producing 3rd, 4th or even 5th Ice Blocks.
Duskbreaker - I've seen many people complaining about this card, and the most common response is "Wait until Netherspite Historian rotates out". The same can be said about Dr. OP Drakonid Operative, two copies are fine, four copies? Not so much.
Stonehill Defender is another card like this, with Paladin being the worst offender before Righteous Protector came into being. This card still is very good now through, who doesn't like getting smacked by a board of 3/3 dudes fighting Odd Paladin.
So what do you think? Personally, I think Discover, in its attempt to limit RNG of the game, is way too overpowered. The pool of cards it offers should be like Arena, with bias towards certain cards, and the very best cards only show up once in a blue moon.
Ice Block is wild only now. Don't see it ruining standard anymore.
Duskbreaker is good, but only 2 copies in standard. Same goes for Drakonid Operative.
Stonehill is a very strong card, OP though, not really.
Seems like most of the issues you're having with the discover mechanic is only really relative to wild.
Discover RNG shouldn't be restricted like arena. Only due to the reason of the card pool being selective to each format it's in. Seems more so problematic in Wild. Standard is fine.
discover is a great way to generate value/draw without actually giving classes more draw (which would obviously dangerously empower aggro or combo decks). it's also has an interesting function as a sort of ad hoc sideboard (pull an extra rin off stonehill to use your first as silence bait, grab an ice barrier off of arcane keysmith to stave off aggro). i think its cool and works well with the design and general spirit of HS.
Stonehill Defender is my favorite card in the game. I play it in a lot of decks and I pick it in arena as much as possible. However, there definitely is a difference playing it in certain classes. It's definitely the best in paladin as far as I can tell. I play it in Big Spell Mage and the best you can hope for is The Lich King or Primordial Drake. There just aren't taunts in mage. Paladin has these two neutrals^^^ plus Tirion and Tarim. It's just crazy. You almost always get a bomb off of the turtle when playing paladin.
The only real problem with discover is the first expansion in standart year the low amount of cards makes getting class cards realy easy (looking at you stonehill defender) or if you have a really strong evergreen set makes the average result better than it should be ( primordial glyph can get good results most of the time ).
The biggest offender was Hystorian and its now in wild, 40% of a duskbreaker was way too much.
I agree. Almost winning the game and losing (in the end) only because your opponent got something ridiculously strong from discover (like Tarim) is pretty heartbreaking. I think they should at least remove legendaries from the RNG pool.
People didn't complain about ice block until discover? What parallel world have you been occupying? People have been complaining about freeze mage's reliance on ice block since the beta.
Before anything, this is just my personal feeling, it may not be objective truth.
The problem with Discover mechanic is that it favors Class cards, which are four times more likely to show up than neutral cards. This means whenever if there's a relevant Discover card around, class cards cannot be strong. For instance:
Ice Block - While people complain about the non-interactivity of the card, they never complained about it being OP...not until Discover and Cabalist's Tome starts producing 3rd, 4th or even 5th Ice Blocks.
Duskbreaker - I've seen many people complaining about this card, and the most common response is "Wait until Netherspite Historian rotates out". The same can be said about Dr. OP Drakonid Operative, two copies are fine, four copies? Not so much.
Stonehill Defender is another card like this, with Paladin being the worst offender before Righteous Protector came into being. This card still is very good now through, who doesn't like getting smacked by a board of 3/3 dudes fighting Odd Paladin.
So what do you think? Personally, I think Discover, in its attempt to limit RNG of the game, is way too overpowered. The pool of cards it offers should be like Arena, with bias towards certain cards, and the very best cards only show up once in a blue moon.
Ice Block is wild only now. Don't see it ruining standard anymore.
Duskbreaker is good, but only 2 copies in standard. Same goes for Drakonid Operative.
Stonehill is a very strong card, OP though, not really.
Seems like most of the issues you're having with the discover mechanic is only really relative to wild.
Discover RNG shouldn't be restricted like arena. Only due to the reason of the card pool being selective to each format it's in. Seems more so problematic in Wild. Standard is fine.
The problem is, as long as the mechanic stays the same, future cards cannot be strong, just look at Warsong Commander nerf.
The solution to a problem shouldn't be "Wait until something rotates" or "Wait until Blizzard implement some crap cards for that class". The game is balanced around players having two copies of a good card, not three or four. Winning the game because you got lucky with a RNG generated card once per ten matches is cool, winning because you get a good card once per two match is too much.
During the era of Unstable Portal, there's a saying "You have a chance to just win the game depending on what you get". This happens, may be like 5% of the time.
Right now with Discover, it's not as extreme, a bit like "Your chance of winning the game increases by 30% if you discover that ultra strong class card.", except it happens much more often, like 33% of the time.
Unless Team5 is balancing the game around a class regularly getting 3 or 4 copies of good class cards, Discover will remain OP. Meanwhile, if they do, the class card would be so crap it's not worth even using them.
I rather have them fix Discover instead of making class cards crap, just give it the Arena bucket treatment.
Furthermore, your suggestuon completely demolishes a rather large number of only BARELY playable cards in an attempt to nerf one or two cards that are just "good".
The Runespear, Ivory Knight, Gorillabot A-3, A Light In the Darkness, Finder's Keepers, Jeweled Scarab, Hallucination? You'd completely gut each and every one of these cards with this sort of change.
I agree. Almost winning the game and losing (in the end) only because your opponent got something ridiculously strong from discover (like Tarim) is pretty heartbreaking. I think they should at least remove legendaries from the RNG pool.
Before anything, this is just my personal feeling, it may not be objective truth.
The problem with Discover mechanic is that it favors Class cards, which are four times more likely to show up than neutral cards. This means whenever if there's a relevant Discover card around, class cards cannot be strong. For instance:
Ice Block - While people complain about the non-interactivity of the card, they never complained about it being OP...not until Discover and Cabalist's Tome starts producing 3rd, 4th or even 5th Ice Blocks.
Duskbreaker - I've seen many people complaining about this card, and the most common response is "Wait until Netherspite Historian rotates out". The same can be said about Dr. OP Drakonid Operative, two copies are fine, four copies? Not so much.
Stonehill Defender is another card like this, with Paladin being the worst offender before Righteous Protector came into being. This card still is very good now through, who doesn't like getting smacked by a board of 3/3 dudes fighting Odd Paladin.
So what do you think? Personally, I think Discover, in its attempt to limit RNG of the game, is way too overpowered. The pool of cards it offers should be like Arena, with bias towards certain cards, and the very best cards only show up once in a blue moon.
Ice Block is wild only now. Don't see it ruining standard anymore.
Duskbreaker is good, but only 2 copies in standard. Same goes for Drakonid Operative.
Stonehill is a very strong card, OP though, not really.
Seems like most of the issues you're having with the discover mechanic is only really relative to wild.
Discover RNG shouldn't be restricted like arena. Only due to the reason of the card pool being selective to each format it's in. Seems more so problematic in Wild. Standard is fine.
The problem is, as long as the mechanic stays the same, future cards cannot be strong, just look at Warsong Commander nerf.
The solution to a problem shouldn't be "Wait until something rotates" or "Wait until Blizzard implement some crap cards for that class". The game is balanced around players having two copies of a good card, not three or four. Winning the game because you got lucky with a RNG generated card once per ten matches is cool, winning because you get a good card once per two match is too much.
During the era of Unstable Portal, there's a saying "You have a chance to just win the game depending on what you get". This happens, may be like 5% of the time.
Right now with Discover, it's not as extreme, a bit like "Your chance of winning the game increases by 30% if you discover that ultra strong class card.", except it happens much more often, like 33% of the time.
Unless Team5 is balancing the game around a class regularly getting 3 or 4 copies of good class cards, Discover will remain OP. Meanwhile, if they do, the class card would be so crap it's not worth even using them.
I rather have them fix Discover instead of making class cards crap, just give it the Arena bucket treatment.
Again, most of your issues with discover lie with wild. And throwing out a random percentage statistic doesn't mean anything. There's no evidence to support your "it happens 33% of the time".
Giving it the arena treatment would be ridiculous. First of all, arena isn't necessarily a competitive format. Meaning we don't see tournaments for it, obviously. Having fair odds at the rng roll on a discover is that. Fair. Wild, also, don't have tournaments that actually matter. Stifling the rng pool would just kill the mechanic in it's entirety. Comparing that to Warsong Commander is like water and oil. Charge is obviously a game ending mechanic and when able to be cheaply used (mana cost) it became a serious problem. Don't retort with Discover can be game ending too. It can be, but comparatively, you only have so many chances to find something useful. While Warsong was a definite 100% combo. Since you know, it's actually in the deck. Hence why we're seeing less to no newer charge minions and now rush.
Blizzard, please remove all game mechanics and make all minions 1/1. Losing hurts my feelings.
Don't overexaggarate, you got my point. There is nothing wrong with losing, what is oppressing though is losing to a card which didn't even start in the opponents deck. If Hearthstone developers had wanted the game to be taken seriously as an esports discipline, they wouldn't have introduced discover mechanics at all. But if it's already in the game, at least limit its significance in deciding games.
Before anything, this is just my personal feeling, it may not be objective truth.
The problem with Discover mechanic is that it favors Class cards, which are four times more likely to show up than neutral cards. This means whenever if there's a relevant Discover card around, class cards cannot be strong. For instance:
Ice Block - While people complain about the non-interactivity of the card, they never complained about it being OP...not until Discover and Cabalist's Tome starts producing 3rd, 4th or even 5th Ice Blocks.
Duskbreaker - I've seen many people complaining about this card, and the most common response is "Wait until Netherspite Historian rotates out". The same can be said about Dr. OP Drakonid Operative, two copies are fine, four copies? Not so much.
Stonehill Defender is another card like this, with Paladin being the worst offender before Righteous Protector came into being. This card still is very good now through, who doesn't like getting smacked by a board of 3/3 dudes fighting Odd Paladin.
So what do you think? Personally, I think Discover, in its attempt to limit RNG of the game, is way too overpowered. The pool of cards it offers should be like Arena, with bias towards certain cards, and the very best cards only show up once in a blue moon.
Discover is fun. It's not going away, nor should it. RNG is what Hearthstone is all about and Blizz must cater to players that aren't so great. They want to win too and it's the only way.
HOWEVER, Stonehill Defender is definitely OP. I guess it needs to cost 4-mana instead? I'm okay with it though, unless of course it pulls Tarim for an Odd Pally :P
I think if it isn't a combo, or gives a lot of tempo, blizzard wouldn't nerf it, discover is fine
I've actually thought about this problem a lot of having discover effects provide the player with multiple copies of good cards in one match, or providing the choice between an obvious pick in the pool vs subpar selections.
I feel that this is where pack fillers actually do provide a purpose. It feels bad for the opponent when a mage gets a discover selection and all three cards are very good choices. If you produce more subpar, or occasionally even bad cards, then the mage might have to make a selection that isn't automatic and then it is up to them to find out how to best make use of it instead of of 'Derp, 3rd Fireball, Ice Block, Pyro, Poly, me so skilled!'
Paladin is very much in need of this imo. Considering that paladin has almost no class taunts except for very powerful legendaries it ends up quite staggering how often paladins pull another Tarim or a Tirion. Discover should involve skillful selections not polarizing choices between godly and crap picks. Petition T5 to give paladin more okay class taunts to water down the pool a little.
Discover is an absolutely GREAT mechanic. I'd love to see more like it.
I'm a humble and friendly european indie living in Asia. During the day I build computer games. During the night,
I am batmaI build computer games.Together with a wonderful artist, I help run this very unique comic site : Comic Devs
I don't mind Discover Mage seems to be the big culprit I'd say being able to get 3, 4 or 5 Ice Blocks in a game is pretty bs as the OP said. But as a whole the mechanic seems fine just Mage had way too many good cards to Discover in Standard so I'd assume that's why Ice Block rotated. Lot of the issues seemed to have been resolved with rotating sets/hof anyway.
Ice Block is wild only now. Don't see it ruining standard anymore.
Duskbreaker is good, but only 2 copies in standard. Same goes for Drakonid Operative.
Stonehill is a very strong card, OP though, not really.
Seems like most of the issues you're having with the discover mechanic is only really relative to wild.
Discover RNG shouldn't be restricted like arena. Only due to the reason of the card pool being selective to each format it's in. Seems more so problematic in Wild. Standard is fine.
discover is a great way to generate value/draw without actually giving classes more draw (which would obviously dangerously empower aggro or combo decks). it's also has an interesting function as a sort of ad hoc sideboard (pull an extra rin off stonehill to use your first as silence bait, grab an ice barrier off of arcane keysmith to stave off aggro). i think its cool and works well with the design and general spirit of HS.
@Quabbelfax: "I fought someone and almost won, but then he had good cards"
That's what happens in every HS game. Discover is fine, just drop some more shit in the pool.
Stonehill Defender is my favorite card in the game. I play it in a lot of decks and I pick it in arena as much as possible. However, there definitely is a difference playing it in certain classes. It's definitely the best in paladin as far as I can tell. I play it in Big Spell Mage and the best you can hope for is The Lich King or Primordial Drake. There just aren't taunts in mage. Paladin has these two neutrals^^^ plus Tirion and Tarim. It's just crazy. You almost always get a bomb off of the turtle when playing paladin.
The only real problem with discover is the first expansion in standart year the low amount of cards makes getting class cards realy easy (looking at you stonehill defender) or if you have a really strong evergreen set makes the average result better than it should be ( primordial glyph can get good results most of the time ).
The biggest offender was Hystorian and its now in wild, 40% of a duskbreaker was way too much.
I agree. Almost winning the game and losing (in the end) only because your opponent got something ridiculously strong from discover (like Tarim) is pretty heartbreaking. I think they should at least remove legendaries from the RNG pool.
Blizzard, please remove all game mechanics and make all minions 1/1. Losing hurts my feelings.
People didn't complain about ice block until discover? What parallel world have you been occupying? People have been complaining about freeze mage's reliance on ice block since the beta.
The problem is, as long as the mechanic stays the same, future cards cannot be strong, just look at Warsong Commander nerf.
The solution to a problem shouldn't be "Wait until something rotates" or "Wait until Blizzard implement some crap cards for that class". The game is balanced around players having two copies of a good card, not three or four. Winning the game because you got lucky with a RNG generated card once per ten matches is cool, winning because you get a good card once per two match is too much.
During the era of Unstable Portal, there's a saying "You have a chance to just win the game depending on what you get". This happens, may be like 5% of the time.
Right now with Discover, it's not as extreme, a bit like "Your chance of winning the game increases by 30% if you discover that ultra strong class card.", except it happens much more often, like 33% of the time.
Unless Team5 is balancing the game around a class regularly getting 3 or 4 copies of good class cards, Discover will remain OP. Meanwhile, if they do, the class card would be so crap it's not worth even using them.
I rather have them fix Discover instead of making class cards crap, just give it the Arena bucket treatment.
Furthermore, your suggestuon completely demolishes a rather large number of only BARELY playable cards in an attempt to nerf one or two cards that are just "good".
The Runespear, Ivory Knight, Gorillabot A-3, A Light In the Darkness, Finder's Keepers, Jeweled Scarab, Hallucination? You'd completely gut each and every one of these cards with this sort of change.
I say no to this.
hahahaha
Rarely do I quote and say this but "THIS".
I enjoy.
Again, most of your issues with discover lie with wild. And throwing out a random percentage statistic doesn't mean anything. There's no evidence to support your "it happens 33% of the time".
Giving it the arena treatment would be ridiculous. First of all, arena isn't necessarily a competitive format. Meaning we don't see tournaments for it, obviously. Having fair odds at the rng roll on a discover is that. Fair. Wild, also, don't have tournaments that actually matter. Stifling the rng pool would just kill the mechanic in it's entirety. Comparing that to Warsong Commander is like water and oil. Charge is obviously a game ending mechanic and when able to be cheaply used (mana cost) it became a serious problem. Don't retort with Discover can be game ending too. It can be, but comparatively, you only have so many chances to find something useful. While Warsong was a definite 100% combo. Since you know, it's actually in the deck. Hence why we're seeing less to no newer charge minions and now rush.
Don't overexaggarate, you got my point. There is nothing wrong with losing, what is oppressing though is losing to a card which didn't even start in the opponents deck. If Hearthstone developers had wanted the game to be taken seriously as an esports discipline, they wouldn't have introduced discover mechanics at all. But if it's already in the game, at least limit its significance in deciding games.
P.S. MxFagz, what kind of name is that? :-\
edit: Oh, sorry, it's Fragz. Misread.