Hi everyone. I noticed today on Twitch that a handful of streamers were advertising/using this new app called Velen Sight. The app calculates the probability of what cards your opponent will be playing next to give you an advantage. This seems pretty shady to me and borderline (if not outright) cheating. I know that Ben Brode (RIP) said something along the lines of "anything that can be replicated on pen and paper is fine" in regards to the use of deck trackers, but this seems beyond that. What do you think? Should I just chill out or this a potential problem down the line?
So let's say, you're playing against odd rogue and the app tells you, that on turn 5, 90% of the time, they already have fungalamcner in their hand? Or stuff like: they kept 2 cards in their opening hand and it tells you the probability of what cards are they?
I think if some1 dedicated so much time into building app like this, they would have made sure its legal. Sounds legit to me. Those are just predictions you can make having a simple excel spreadsheet.
I think if one doesn't like using such programs then just don't. But let others who prefer to win more consistently to do so. If you think you're better than them, then its also fine. You have a right to feel superb especially when it actually makes you more skillful player while having same results as players using deck trackers. Not talking about OP here cause it's hard to know his opinion on this but just overall.
My first impression is that it's not that big of a deal. Meta decks tend to be homogenous enough that the app is just automating something we do anyway. The first time I saw Standard Even Shaman and had no idea what it was, I immediately came here to check out a decklist to see what I was up against. I read Vicious Syndicate decklists to know what people are playing. Velen Sight may make this easier but the outcome is still the same. I understand why people would object to this though.
It's just a fancy archetype detector, if your opponent using a popular netdeck you should know which cards he has anyways, if he doesn't the app will be wrong.
If the program actually looked up the players account via say "innkeeper" and did a comparison of the current game vs the player's account. Then I would say it is breaking the game and is cheating.
If the program is going off statistical probability based on the class+format+ current cards on the field + current cards played compared to the known list of tier decks. Then I see it as creative.
The issue then comes down to how varied is the format. With the list of tier decks being so limited and the constant need to net deck to be competitive, the program can easily be oppressive. In the current format of Hearthstone, the community is rewarded for being copycats rather than creative. Which will lend to this program being very accurate in predicting the opponent's plays.
This is just my opinion, and in the end, it is up to blizzard to decide whether the program should be banned or allowed.
"Velen Sight analyzes hundreds of thousands of games weekly with advanced machine learning algorithms to give you the best and most relevant predictions in real time. We get you as close as possible to what is statistically knowable about your opponent's deck."
Seems fine to me.
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Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
Someone else developed an app like that a long time ago and Blizzard asked them not to release it publicly, so I guess they saw it as an unfair advantage then...
How lazy and/or desperate are people? Earn your wins for crying out loud! Stupid people always trying to reduce skill and add cheap wins to their record. Just play the game without this stuff and use you memory and experience. Such a novel idea.
How lazy and/or desperate are people? Earn your wins for crying out loud! Stupid people always trying to reduce skill and add cheap wins to their record. Just play the game without this stuff and use you memory and experience. Such a novel idea.
This was actually my first reaction to it as well, and I still feel this way to an extent, as it will help less skilled players steal some wins that they shouldn't get. I prefer harder to pilot decks so this kind of stuff just auto rubs me the wrong way, but I know we're all different and my way of playing isn't THE way of playing. Still, I agree here, earn your wins, don't pay for them (it's a paid app).
I don't like it. Keeping a track of the cards in your deck is fine, but calculating the probability of your opponent's plays is not something you can normally do with a pen and paper. Knowing the meta and reading your opponent's hand is a big part of being a skillful Hearthstone player, and this app just makes the game more P2W, less skill dependant, while also screwing mobile players.
I don't like it. Keeping a track of the cards in your deck is fine, but calculating the probability of your opponent's plays is not something you can normally do with a pen and paper. Knowing the meta and reading your opponent's hand is a big part of being a skillful Hearthstone player, and this app just makes the game more P2W, less skill dependant, while also screwing mobile players.
How lazy and/or desperate are people? Earn your wins for crying out loud! Stupid people always trying to reduce skill and add cheap wins to their record. Just play the game without this stuff and use you memory and experience. Such a novel idea.
This was actually my first reaction to it as well, and I still feel this way to an extent, as it will help less skilled players steal some wins that they shouldn't get. I prefer harder to pilot decks so this kind of stuff just auto rubs me the wrong way, but I know we're all different and my way of playing isn't THE way of playing. Still, I agree here, earn your wins, don't pay for them (it's a paid app).
You do know that half of HS community actually believe that it takes the same amount of skill to play aggro/midrange/combo/control deck? :P I don't think there is anything you can expect from an average player here. Most people are here just for a fast game on a toilet or on a way to work.
If you want a very good advice that will help you on a daily basis - be proud that you're the one demanding more (up to a point because perfectionism is not sth to be proud of) from yourself, but don't expect others to look at things the way you do. And god forbids that you get angry at such people. Being very good at sth and earning it through a hard job is not what everyone is looking for. Just be happy that you can tell yourself you're better at such things. The other person can be better at stuff you didn't even care about but may be none the less important for any reason.
At 5$ a month the poor lads who pay for it better find it useful...
At $5/month I'd be robbed of half a cup of chai for a single day.
Y I K E S
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
These apps are such bullshit. I've never used a deck tracker in my life and I've reached legend more times than I can count.
Each their own, but I have no respect for players using these apps.
This is the easiest card game ever. Probability is elementary and it's even easier to predict what opponents have in hand because everybody netdecks, decks are only 30 cards and you can't shuffle cards around in your hand. Why not challenge yourself to understand probability or read hands? That way you'll actually gain something useful from playing this game as those skills translate to other aspects in life.
If you just netdeck, use deck tracker and this app to maximize your chances of winning you're actually wasting your time.
I think more often than not this app will cause people to misplay than not. Probabilities are just that - probabilities. you should be calculating those in your head anyway once you know what the archetype you are playing is. For good players, the app will just be telling them what they already know, and for bad players it will be telling them things they will not understand and will make bad plays as a result. I do not see a problem at all.
At 5$ a month the poor lads who pay for it better find it useful...
At $5/month I'd be robbed of half a cup of chai for a single day.
Y I K E S
Then at 10$ a cup, you better drink really good chaï tea. 5$ a month is what I spend in material to clean my 2 y.o. kid's ass, and with the money I save, I'm planning a small trip this summer
Hi everyone. I noticed today on Twitch that a handful of streamers were advertising/using this new app called Velen Sight. The app calculates the probability of what cards your opponent will be playing next to give you an advantage. This seems pretty shady to me and borderline (if not outright) cheating. I know that Ben Brode (RIP) said something along the lines of "anything that can be replicated on pen and paper is fine" in regards to the use of deck trackers, but this seems beyond that. What do you think? Should I just chill out or this a potential problem down the line?
So let's say, you're playing against odd rogue and the app tells you, that on turn 5, 90% of the time, they already have fungalamcner in their hand? Or stuff like: they kept 2 cards in their opening hand and it tells you the probability of what cards are they?
I think if some1 dedicated so much time into building app like this, they would have made sure its legal. Sounds legit to me. Those are just predictions you can make having a simple excel spreadsheet.
I think if one doesn't like using such programs then just don't. But let others who prefer to win more consistently to do so. If you think you're better than them, then its also fine. You have a right to feel superb especially when it actually makes you more skillful player while having same results as players using deck trackers. Not talking about OP here cause it's hard to know his opinion on this but just overall.
My first impression is that it's not that big of a deal. Meta decks tend to be homogenous enough that the app is just automating something we do anyway. The first time I saw Standard Even Shaman and had no idea what it was, I immediately came here to check out a decklist to see what I was up against. I read Vicious Syndicate decklists to know what people are playing. Velen Sight may make this easier but the outcome is still the same. I understand why people would object to this though.
It's just a fancy archetype detector, if your opponent using a popular netdeck you should know which cards he has anyways, if he doesn't the app will be wrong.
Probability vs tracking.
If the program actually looked up the players account via say "innkeeper" and did a comparison of the current game vs the player's account. Then I would say it is breaking the game and is cheating.
If the program is going off statistical probability based on the class+format+ current cards on the field + current cards played compared to the known list of tier decks. Then I see it as creative.
The issue then comes down to how varied is the format. With the list of tier decks being so limited and the constant need to net deck to be competitive, the program can easily be oppressive. In the current format of Hearthstone, the community is rewarded for being copycats rather than creative. Which will lend to this program being very accurate in predicting the opponent's plays.
This is just my opinion, and in the end, it is up to blizzard to decide whether the program should be banned or allowed.
Cute, ineffective, but cute.
"Velen Sight analyzes hundreds of thousands of games weekly with advanced machine learning algorithms to give you the best and most relevant predictions in real time. We get you as close as possible to what is statistically knowable about your opponent's deck."
Seems fine to me.
Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
Thank you all for your responses, players like you keep players like me in check from crying wolf :)
Someone else developed an app like that a long time ago and Blizzard asked them not to release it publicly, so I guess they saw it as an unfair advantage then...
How lazy and/or desperate are people? Earn your wins for crying out loud! Stupid people always trying to reduce skill and add cheap wins to their record. Just play the game without this stuff and use you memory and experience. Such a novel idea.
Also, for it to be fair, all platforms need access to it, and I’m guess mobile doesn’t, and a large proportion of players are mobile.
This was actually my first reaction to it as well, and I still feel this way to an extent, as it will help less skilled players steal some wins that they shouldn't get. I prefer harder to pilot decks so this kind of stuff just auto rubs me the wrong way, but I know we're all different and my way of playing isn't THE way of playing. Still, I agree here, earn your wins, don't pay for them (it's a paid app).
I don't like it. Keeping a track of the cards in your deck is fine, but calculating the probability of your opponent's plays is not something you can normally do with a pen and paper. Knowing the meta and reading your opponent's hand is a big part of being a skillful Hearthstone player, and this app just makes the game more P2W, less skill dependant, while also screwing mobile players.
At 5$ a month the poor lads who pay for it better find it useful...
100% agreed.
If they are charging for it I can see Blizzard closing it down at some point.
You do know that half of HS community actually believe that it takes the same amount of skill to play aggro/midrange/combo/control deck? :P I don't think there is anything you can expect from an average player here. Most people are here just for a fast game on a toilet or on a way to work.
If you want a very good advice that will help you on a daily basis - be proud that you're the one demanding more (up to a point because perfectionism is not sth to be proud of) from yourself, but don't expect others to look at things the way you do. And god forbids that you get angry at such people. Being very good at sth and earning it through a hard job is not what everyone is looking for. Just be happy that you can tell yourself you're better at such things. The other person can be better at stuff you didn't even care about but may be none the less important for any reason.
At $5/month I'd be robbed of half a cup of chai for a single day.
Y I K E S
Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
These apps are such bullshit. I've never used a deck tracker in my life and I've reached legend more times than I can count.
Each their own, but I have no respect for players using these apps.
This is the easiest card game ever. Probability is elementary and it's even easier to predict what opponents have in hand because everybody netdecks, decks are only 30 cards and you can't shuffle cards around in your hand. Why not challenge yourself to understand probability or read hands? That way you'll actually gain something useful from playing this game as those skills translate to other aspects in life.
If you just netdeck, use deck tracker and this app to maximize your chances of winning you're actually wasting your time.
I think more often than not this app will cause people to misplay than not. Probabilities are just that - probabilities. you should be calculating those in your head anyway once you know what the archetype you are playing is. For good players, the app will just be telling them what they already know, and for bad players it will be telling them things they will not understand and will make bad plays as a result. I do not see a problem at all.
Then at 10$ a cup, you better drink really good chaï tea. 5$ a month is what I spend in material to clean my 2 y.o. kid's ass, and with the money I save, I'm planning a small trip this summer