With the increasing power level of today is cardpool cards like spider tank would most likely not see play anymore. What stats what a vanilla minion have to have to see competitive play?
Not sure about the 8/8 for 5-mana example, considering there are 8/8's for that cost that come with significant drawbacks like Bittertide Hydra and see play. I think 6/7 - 6/8 for 5 would be viable. That's cheaper than Boulderfist Ogre is now.
With the increasing power level of today is cardpool cards like spider tank would most likely not see play anymore. What stats what a vanilla minion have to have to see competitive play?
spider tank never really did see play. The minions that were pure vanilla were more ..tolerated than desired. You played a 3/2 for 2 with no benefits because otherwise you wouldn't have a 2 drop. Yeti really only was WANTED when you could cheat it out.
Which gets to the point. If you want to see a vanilla card who's stats warrant being played, look for 'cheated out' cards. For example, a giant is essentually a vanilla card as it just a card with big stats. If you think of it less of it having an ability and more of it just being naturally at the mana we tend to play it at, well.. there you go, 5 mana 8/8 would be playable. 6 mana 8/8 would also be possible but not always accepted.
1 mana would be a 4/5. See innervated yeti back in 2014. Even with the new cards I bet anyone would play a vanilla 4/5 for 1 mana.
7 mana... well think about this: Spiteful summoner pretty much is a big ball of stats most of the time, a 4/4 + whatever it throws at you. Thus at minimum it's a 'vanilla' 12/12 among two bodies, and, ignoring one particular 12/12, it' s a 16/16 at best.
So are people still playing Summoner? If so then a vanilla 7 mana 16/16 is viable.
Past 7.. I don't see it. It's way too costly and, if countered, is basically game over.
And nah, that’s not a 1 mana 4/5, it was an innervated 4/5 With coin. So a 2 mana 4/5.
What would be playable in standard right now? Plated beetles are the best examples right now of early game cards that are included in control decks not only for the 3 extra life but also for fighting early boards. Mostly you care about the 2/3 in play at turn 2 rather than the 3 life.
So.. 2 mana 3/3?
For the 1 mana slot: Zombie chows were for a long time the anti aggro choice for a lot of decks. Is a 1 mana 2/3 still good enough at this point in the evolution of the game?
Of course we are talking about that 29th or 30st card in your deck, after you have filled in all cards that make up your strategy. And likely a tech card or two.
3 mana... no idea. In arena the keening banshee is a good pick at 4 mana 5/5, but well, that doesnt’t say all that much for constructive. What would you like to counter at 3 mana? A 4/4 HC Thug for the rogue? A 2/4 or 4/4 animal companion? Maybe a flappy bird?
So probably a 3 mana 4/5 would be a go-to choice for many I suppose.
(Sinti, I don’t think a 1/2 or a 2/1 for 1 would be very viable ;) .
Sinti was explaning the definition of vanilla minions. What you guys are talking about are overstatted textless minions. Vanilla doesn't refer to minions without text, vanilla refers to the stat distribution of "normal" cards without text, and it used to judge whether over and understatted minions are worth the stats given the effect.
Edit: Actually you guys are probably right in that vanilla simply refers to textless and tribeless minions, usually neutral as well. Those usually have a certain stat distribution, and with the powercreep of the game, the thread is basically asking what that stats distribution would have to be for vanilla minions to see play.
Grumble saw no play in KFT despite the fact that he was both overstatted and had a usually good effect. So 6 mana 7/8? The problem is, for most decks, you're using up a deck slot for a card that doesn't offer synergy for the rest of the deck, but is used for pure stats. That's way dr 7 was used, but even he isn't good enough in the wild format, as he gives no synergy to most decks and is just a pile of stats and damage.
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First I would say it depends what is defined as "vanilla". Is a tribe (for example mech or beast) still "true vanilla" or does a minion have to be "no-tribe" like Yeti? Because in my opinion a tribe is "some kind of ability" too, because of the synergy with other cards. For example Amalgam wouldn't see play at all without its tribes.
Imo a rule of thumb for creatures with no card text (deathrattle, battlecry etc) and a tribe need to have the following states to be viable today:
"playable stats" = (manacost x 2) +1
--> for example Amalgam as a 3/4 (7 stats) for 3 mana
"strong stats" = (manacost + 1) x 2
--> 1 mana = 4 stats (Dire Mole or Enchanted Raven for example)
Blizzard should make a special stream lessons or youtube videos in which they explain the the only way hs should be played is with supa dupa 1000 IQ control/combo homebrewed decks and 30 minutes long match is a minimum time period that proves you're not braindead blah blah something etc.
Not sure about the 8/8 for 5-mana example, considering there are 8/8's for that cost that come with significant drawbacks like Bittertide Hydra and see play. I think 6/7 - 6/8 for 5 would be viable. That's cheaper than Boulderfist Ogre is now.
hydra is treated as "no drawbacks" in aggro.. it's just not good enough most of the time.
Sinti was explaning the definition of vanilla minions. What you guys are talking about are overstatted textless minions. Vanilla doesn't refer to minions without text, vanilla refers to the stat distribution of "normal" cards without text, and it used to judge whether over and understatted minions are worth the stats given the effect.
Edit: Actually you guys are probably right in that vanilla simply refers to textless and tribeless minions, usually neutral as well. Those usually have a certain stat distribution, and with the powercreep of the game, the thread is basically asking what that stats distribution would have to be for vanilla minions to see play.
Grumble saw no play in KFT despite the fact that he was both overstatted and had a usually good effect. So 6 mana 7/8? The problem is, for most decks, you're using up a deck slot for a card that doesn't offer synergy for the rest of the deck, but is used for pure stats. That's way dr 7 was used, but even he isn't good enough in the wild format, as he gives no synergy to most decks and is just a pile of stats and damage.
Dr 7 was really not that good of a card. He was a very expensive card that did nothing when you drop him on the board, was easy to target with a 3 mana BGH, and the boom bots could do everything from do 1 damage to a high health minion to doing 8 damage to the face. He's unreliable, slow, offer few synergies, and the perfect example of what went wrong with early hearthstone cards.
The only reason why we played it was because he was literally the only 7 drop to play that wasn't absolutely badly stated and/or with a horrible effect that you could never use at that mana. #*$)(# he was one of the only high mana minion to play other than Rag, especially in the much faster meta of GvG.
This is why a lot of minions, especially the more vanilla ones, were played. You NEEDED a minion to fit that spot, but nothing really fit your deck's goal. So you either went without or you just grabbed a vanilla.
"Fair" cards in a card game are stand-ins. They symbolize an incomplete deck wiating for new cards. It's not a good thing.
Grumble symbolizes a different mentality: a card that is good but doesn't have a home yet. Grumble was well stated with a cool effect. But at the time there wasn't a deck that we could think of that would best abuse the card. That's fine actually and doesn't represent a power creep. What it means that we have design room as the card has 2 years to find a niche. We didn't need long. Even if it doesn't, it presents a little puzzle for deck designers to tinker with and experiment.
PURE vanilla, the cards that not only have no abilities but also have normal stats are not meant to be played. They are placeholders used when nothing else really 'fits'. They also establish the power curve. Yeti is important not because he's playable but because pretty much all of hearthstone is based on '4 mana is 9 stats worth of 'stuff'. But for actual CARDS, we need cards that aren't 'fair' but cards that have a strategy. It needs to be 'GOOD' at something useful, similar to how we want a GOOD mechanic, not the 'average' one.
The cards I said that 'would work' honestly aren't really 'vanilla' but are 'overstated'. Their ability is to be physically stronger than a normal curve card and force an aggressive stance in a "stop this or you die" mentality. For example, a 4 mana 7/7 is an effective 'overstated minion' as proven by ..well.. 4 mana 7/7 (note that the card stopped being used less because he was overpowered and more because shaman moved from aggro to Tempo with totem synergies and needed synergistic cards more than raw stats early in the game.) That hasn't changed. When a deck made good use of high stats, 7/7 at 4 still works. Which is typically aagro
We stopped using basic vanilla because cards stopped sucking, and we've gotten better at deck design. And we aren't playing so many pure aggro decks.
(seriously, if you can consider a 7 mana card 'aggressive' the meta has gotten stupidly slow compared to the past)
Not sure about the 8/8 for 5-mana example, considering there are 8/8's for that cost that come with significant drawbacks like Bittertide Hydra and see play. I think 6/7 - 6/8 for 5 would be viable. That's cheaper than Boulderfist Ogre is now.
hydra is treated as "no drawbacks" in aggro.. it's just not good enough most of the time.
Have fun with your Hydra against Odd Pala. :D
If there wouldn't be decks out there at the moment, which can flood the board with a lot of tokens (oh and don't forget Defile!), I would play Hydra in my Tempo-Mage for sure. But at the moment Hydra is just to dangerous for the player who plays it.
Blizzard should make a special stream lessons or youtube videos in which they explain the the only way hs should be played is with supa dupa 1000 IQ control/combo homebrewed decks and 30 minutes long match is a minimum time period that proves you're not braindead blah blah something etc.
That is a pretty common curve in Wild dragon priest, with a 2-3 for 1 taunt on the 2-4 to boot. It is good, and would be Op in standard, but it is fine in Wild.
A vanilla 2 mana 2/4 Beast would definitely see play, a powercreeped River Crock is not off the radar in the long run.
1 mana 1/3 Dire Mole Beast already sees enough play and is a good 1 drop,like really good combined with turn 2 Crackling Razormaw.
We had a 3 mana 2/5 Beast but it wasn't good enough especially when Druid had a more flexible card at 3 mana 5/2 or 2/5 beast from Blackrock expansion.
For 3 mana slot a vanilla 2/6 Beast would see play for sure curving into 4 mana Houndmaster nicely.
For 4 mana probably a 3/7 Beast as vanilla, 5 mana we already have Nesting Roc which is 4/7 Beast with an added bonus so for 5 mana a 4/8 Beast with no bonus would see play.
For 6 mana we have Highmane hehe,overall from 6+ mana card pool vanilla cards arent that great because spending a lot of mana for just stats is not productive enough you will want some good effects.
Sinti was explaning the definition of vanilla minions. What you guys are talking about are overstatted textless minions. Vanilla doesn't refer to minions without text, vanilla refers to the stat distribution of "normal" cards without text, and it used to judge whether over and understatted minions are worth the stats given the effect.
Edit: Actually you guys are probably right in that vanilla simply refers to textless and tribeless minions, usually neutral as well. Those usually have a certain stat distribution, and with the powercreep of the game, the thread is basically asking what that stats distribution would have to be for vanilla minions to see play.
Grumble saw no play in KFT despite the fact that he was both overstatted and had a usually good effect. So 6 mana 7/8? The problem is, for most decks, you're using up a deck slot for a card that doesn't offer synergy for the rest of the deck, but is used for pure stats. That's way dr 7 was used, but even he isn't good enough in the wild format, as he gives no synergy to most decks and is just a pile of stats and damage.
Dr 7 was really not that good of a card. He was a very expensive card that did nothing when you drop him on the board, was easy to target with a 3 mana BGH, and the boom bots could do everything from do 1 damage to a high health minion to doing 8 damage to the face. He's unreliable, slow, offer few synergies, and the perfect example of what went wrong with early hearthstone cards.
The only reason why we played it was because he was literally the only 7 drop to play that wasn't absolutely badly stated and/or with a horrible effect that you could never use at that mana. #*$)(# he was one of the only high mana minion to play other than Rag, especially in the much faster meta of GvG.
This is why a lot of minions, especially the more vanilla ones, were played. You NEEDED a minion to fit that spot, but nothing really fit your deck's goal. So you either went without or you just grabbed a vanilla.
"Fair" cards in a card game are stand-ins. They symbolize an incomplete deck wiating for new cards. It's not a good thing.
Grumble symbolizes a different mentality: a card that is good but doesn't have a home yet. Grumble was well stated with a cool effect. But at the time there wasn't a deck that we could think of that would best abuse the card. That's fine actually and doesn't represent a power creep. What it means that we have design room as the card has 2 years to find a niche. We didn't need long. Even if it doesn't, it presents a little puzzle for deck designers to tinker with and experiment.
PURE vanilla, the cards that not only have no abilities but also have normal stats are not meant to be played. They are placeholders used when nothing else really 'fits'. They also establish the power curve. Yeti is important not because he's playable but because pretty much all of hearthstone is based on '4 mana is 9 stats worth of 'stuff'. But for actual CARDS, we need cards that aren't 'fair' but cards that have a strategy. It needs to be 'GOOD' at something useful, similar to how we want a GOOD mechanic, not the 'average' one.
The cards I said that 'would work' honestly aren't really 'vanilla' but are 'overstated'. Their ability is to be physically stronger than a normal curve card and force an aggressive stance in a "stop this or you die" mentality. For example, a 4 mana 7/7 is an effective 'overstated minion' as proven by ..well.. 4 mana 7/7 (note that the card stopped being used less because he was overpowered and more because shaman moved from aggro to Tempo with totem synergies and needed synergistic cards more than raw stats early in the game.) That hasn't changed. When a deck made good use of high stats, 7/7 at 4 still works. Which is typically aagro
We stopped using basic vanilla because cards stopped sucking, and we've gotten better at deck design. And we aren't playing so many pure aggro decks.
(seriously, if you can consider a 7 mana card 'aggressive' the meta has gotten stupidly slow compared to the past)
I agree with what you said. My point in using Dr. 7 and Grumble as an example was purely for illustration on how overstatted a minion would need to be to be played, since that's what the op was asking. Let's "pretend" Dr. 7 was a vanilla minion. Dr. 7 is then a 7 mana 9/9 with additional 2-8 attack randomly distributed. That's no longer good enough. Grumble, in "vanilla form" is when played on an empty board on curve, and is a 6 mana 7/7. That's also overstatted. However, it feels bad to do that, since people would much rather play Grumble to bounce back a minion for some benefit, because that provides more value in the long run. My point is that both of these are not good enough for most decks now.
Yes, vanilla cards should not be used because they are placeholders for a better collection. But for theory's sake, a vanilla minion would only be played if the stats were way more overstatted then vanilla minions are now (at least for high cost minions). And that's something nobody wants to have happen.
On the other hand, I didn't mention lower mana cards. There are some, for the sake of argument, vanilla cards that are played. Dire mole is a one mana 1/3 and used in rogue, that can't abuse the beast tag. I'd argue that's using a vanilla minion for just the stats (yes, the odd restriction is reponsible, but the point stands). That's rarely seen anywhere, and that's probably the only example. Other one cost 1/3's have beneficial effects, like northshire cleric and mana wyrm. Overstatting lower cost vanilla minions is far more dangerous than overstatting higher cost minions, because a pile of stats without synergy is now too slow in HS, whereas early board presence will always be valuable, especially for aggro.
With the increasing power level of today is cardpool cards like spider tank would most likely not see play anymore. What stats what a vanilla minion have to have to see competitive play?
why not? a 3/4 for 3 sees play cause it's a murloc/elemental/dragon.
pure vanilla? 2/3 for 1 3/3 for 2 3/5 for 3 5/6 for 4 and 8/8 for 5 after that you have to have an effect or a lot of synergy.
Not sure about the 8/8 for 5-mana example, considering there are 8/8's for that cost that come with significant drawbacks like Bittertide Hydra and see play. I think 6/7 - 6/8 for 5 would be viable. That's cheaper than Boulderfist Ogre is now.
spider tank never really did see play. The minions that were pure vanilla were more ..tolerated than desired. You played a 3/2 for 2 with no benefits because otherwise you wouldn't have a 2 drop. Yeti really only was WANTED when you could cheat it out.
Which gets to the point. If you want to see a vanilla card who's stats warrant being played, look for 'cheated out' cards. For example, a giant is essentually a vanilla card as it just a card with big stats. If you think of it less of it having an ability and more of it just being naturally at the mana we tend to play it at, well.. there you go, 5 mana 8/8 would be playable. 6 mana 8/8 would also be possible but not always accepted.
1 mana would be a 4/5. See innervated yeti back in 2014. Even with the new cards I bet anyone would play a vanilla 4/5 for 1 mana.
7 mana... well think about this: Spiteful summoner pretty much is a big ball of stats most of the time, a 4/4 + whatever it throws at you. Thus at minimum it's a 'vanilla' 12/12 among two bodies, and, ignoring one particular 12/12, it' s a 16/16 at best.
So are people still playing Summoner? If so then a vanilla 7 mana 16/16 is viable.
Past 7.. I don't see it. It's way too costly and, if countered, is basically game over.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Vanilla minion literally means one more stat over the mana cost, thats it. You cant have a better vanilla minion :)
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That’s a cool question colorfulnuke!
And nah, that’s not a 1 mana 4/5, it was an innervated 4/5 With coin. So a 2 mana 4/5.
What would be playable in standard right now?
Plated beetles are the best examples right now of early game cards that are included in control decks not only for the 3 extra life but also for fighting early boards. Mostly you care about the 2/3 in play at turn 2 rather than the 3 life.
So.. 2 mana 3/3?
For the 1 mana slot: Zombie chows were for a long time the anti aggro choice for a lot of decks. Is a 1 mana 2/3 still good enough at this point in the evolution of the game?
Of course we are talking about that 29th or 30st card in your deck, after you have filled in all cards that make up your strategy. And likely a tech card or two.
3 mana... no idea. In arena the keening banshee is a good pick at 4 mana 5/5, but well, that doesnt’t say all that much for constructive.
What would you like to counter at 3 mana? A 4/4 HC Thug for the rogue? A 2/4 or 4/4 animal companion? Maybe a flappy bird?
So probably a 3 mana 4/5 would be a go-to choice for many I suppose.
(Sinti, I don’t think a 1/2 or a 2/1 for 1 would be very viable ;) .
I think for 1 mana we have an answer in Dire Mole, which is quite playable, even without Beast synergy.
A vanilla 2/3 for 1 mana would be played by nearly all decks imo, but that shouldn't be the goal.
(mana-cost x 2) + 2 in stats
e.g. 2 mana vanilla 2/4 would see play
works a little less well for higher costs
4 mana 8/8
Sinti was explaning the definition of vanilla minions. What you guys are talking about are overstatted textless minions. Vanilla doesn't refer to minions without text, vanilla refers to the stat distribution of "normal" cards without text, and it used to judge whether over and understatted minions are worth the stats given the effect.Edit: Actually you guys are probably right in that vanilla simply refers to textless and tribeless minions, usually neutral as well. Those usually have a certain stat distribution, and with the powercreep of the game, the thread is basically asking what that stats distribution would have to be for vanilla minions to see play.
Grumble saw no play in KFT despite the fact that he was both overstatted and had a usually good effect. So 6 mana 7/8? The problem is, for most decks, you're using up a deck slot for a card that doesn't offer synergy for the rest of the deck, but is used for pure stats. That's way dr 7 was used, but even he isn't good enough in the wild format, as he gives no synergy to most decks and is just a pile of stats and damage.
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Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
First I would say it depends what is defined as "vanilla". Is a tribe (for example mech or beast) still "true vanilla" or does a minion have to be "no-tribe" like Yeti? Because in my opinion a tribe is "some kind of ability" too, because of the synergy with other cards. For example Amalgam wouldn't see play at all without its tribes.
Imo a rule of thumb for creatures with no card text (deathrattle, battlecry etc) and a tribe need to have the following states to be viable today:
"playable stats" = (manacost x 2) +1
--> for example Amalgam as a 3/4 (7 stats) for 3 mana
"strong stats" = (manacost + 1) x 2
--> 1 mana = 4 stats (Dire Mole or Enchanted Raven for example)
--> 2 mana = 6 stats
and so on...
hydra is treated as "no drawbacks" in aggro.. it's just not good enough most of the time.
1 mana 2/2
2 mana 2/4
3 mana 3/5
Would be OP in temp decks though.
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Dr 7 was really not that good of a card. He was a very expensive card that did nothing when you drop him on the board, was easy to target with a 3 mana BGH, and the boom bots could do everything from do 1 damage to a high health minion to doing 8 damage to the face. He's unreliable, slow, offer few synergies, and the perfect example of what went wrong with early hearthstone cards.
The only reason why we played it was because he was literally the only 7 drop to play that wasn't absolutely badly stated and/or with a horrible effect that you could never use at that mana. #*$)(# he was one of the only high mana minion to play other than Rag, especially in the much faster meta of GvG.
This is why a lot of minions, especially the more vanilla ones, were played. You NEEDED a minion to fit that spot, but nothing really fit your deck's goal. So you either went without or you just grabbed a vanilla.
"Fair" cards in a card game are stand-ins. They symbolize an incomplete deck wiating for new cards. It's not a good thing.
Grumble symbolizes a different mentality: a card that is good but doesn't have a home yet. Grumble was well stated with a cool effect. But at the time there wasn't a deck that we could think of that would best abuse the card. That's fine actually and doesn't represent a power creep. What it means that we have design room as the card has 2 years to find a niche. We didn't need long. Even if it doesn't, it presents a little puzzle for deck designers to tinker with and experiment.
PURE vanilla, the cards that not only have no abilities but also have normal stats are not meant to be played. They are placeholders used when nothing else really 'fits'. They also establish the power curve. Yeti is important not because he's playable but because pretty much all of hearthstone is based on '4 mana is 9 stats worth of 'stuff'. But for actual CARDS, we need cards that aren't 'fair' but cards that have a strategy. It needs to be 'GOOD' at something useful, similar to how we want a GOOD mechanic, not the 'average' one.
The cards I said that 'would work' honestly aren't really 'vanilla' but are 'overstated'. Their ability is to be physically stronger than a normal curve card and force an aggressive stance in a "stop this or you die" mentality. For example, a 4 mana 7/7 is an effective 'overstated minion' as proven by ..well.. 4 mana 7/7 (note that the card stopped being used less because he was overpowered and more because shaman moved from aggro to Tempo with totem synergies and needed synergistic cards more than raw stats early in the game.) That hasn't changed. When a deck made good use of high stats, 7/7 at 4 still works. Which is typically aagro
We stopped using basic vanilla because cards stopped sucking, and we've gotten better at deck design. And we aren't playing so many pure aggro decks.
(seriously, if you can consider a 7 mana card 'aggressive' the meta has gotten stupidly slow compared to the past)
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
4 mana 7/7 with no drawback (please never print this blizzard, i beg you),
Have fun with your Hydra against Odd Pala. :D
If there wouldn't be decks out there at the moment, which can flood the board with a lot of tokens (oh and don't forget Defile!), I would play Hydra in my Tempo-Mage for sure. But at the moment Hydra is just to dangerous for the player who plays it.
That is a pretty common curve in Wild dragon priest, with a 2-3 for 1 taunt on the 2-4 to boot. It is good, and would be Op in standard, but it is fine in Wild.
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A vanilla 2 mana 2/4 Beast would definitely see play, a powercreeped River Crock is not off the radar in the long run.
1 mana 1/3 Dire Mole Beast already sees enough play and is a good 1 drop,like really good combined with turn 2 Crackling Razormaw.
We had a 3 mana 2/5 Beast but it wasn't good enough especially when Druid had a more flexible card at 3 mana 5/2 or 2/5 beast from Blackrock expansion.
For 3 mana slot a vanilla 2/6 Beast would see play for sure curving into 4 mana Houndmaster nicely.
For 4 mana probably a 3/7 Beast as vanilla, 5 mana we already have Nesting Roc which is 4/7 Beast with an added bonus so for 5 mana a 4/8 Beast with no bonus would see play.
For 6 mana we have Highmane hehe,overall from 6+ mana card pool vanilla cards arent that great because spending a lot of mana for just stats is not productive enough you will want some good effects.
I agree with what you said. My point in using Dr. 7 and Grumble as an example was purely for illustration on how overstatted a minion would need to be to be played, since that's what the op was asking. Let's "pretend" Dr. 7 was a vanilla minion. Dr. 7 is then a 7 mana 9/9 with additional 2-8 attack randomly distributed. That's no longer good enough. Grumble, in "vanilla form" is when played on an empty board on curve, and is a 6 mana 7/7. That's also overstatted. However, it feels bad to do that, since people would much rather play Grumble to bounce back a minion for some benefit, because that provides more value in the long run. My point is that both of these are not good enough for most decks now.
Yes, vanilla cards should not be used because they are placeholders for a better collection. But for theory's sake, a vanilla minion would only be played if the stats were way more overstatted then vanilla minions are now (at least for high cost minions). And that's something nobody wants to have happen.
On the other hand, I didn't mention lower mana cards. There are some, for the sake of argument, vanilla cards that are played. Dire mole is a one mana 1/3 and used in rogue, that can't abuse the beast tag. I'd argue that's using a vanilla minion for just the stats (yes, the odd restriction is reponsible, but the point stands). That's rarely seen anywhere, and that's probably the only example. Other one cost 1/3's have beneficial effects, like northshire cleric and mana wyrm. Overstatting lower cost vanilla minions is far more dangerous than overstatting higher cost minions, because a pile of stats without synergy is now too slow in HS, whereas early board presence will always be valuable, especially for aggro.