I think a lot of people have talked and discussed this, Kibler has mentioned it before that classic set is problematic.
Blizzard should try maybe creating another "core" Classic set and just move all the classic set into wild, instead this see-saw battle of well this classic card is getting strong and been around since beta we should HOF. Over time i can see classic will slowly erode to hardly anything because some cards just become problematic and reduce "design space".
Thoughts?
Please keep it civil and not about specific decks cards are in blah blah should be just nerfed to obilivion etc. etc. go off topic.
I agree that it should probably rotate, but. This is the key thing, BUT, it depends on how they handle it. Some type of dust must be given. Some form of renumeration. This is most likely the reason it has yet to implemented.
On one hand, picture a free to play player, they usually try to grab classic cards and rate getting these cards higher because they are advertised as always remaining in standard.
If suddenly they rotate, and no dust is given then that player would most likely quit.
However if they give back that dust to the player, that will be a lot of dust and likely break the game.
I'm curious as to how the core / classic set is seen to be problematic. We as a community have the benefit of hindsight to complain about it but it has some advantages already: -
An evergreen set of cards makes the game easier to return to. In a game ecology that's already perceived in some senses as being beginner / ftp unfriendly knowing that a core set of cards will remain if you take a break is a huge perk. It doesn't turn a hobby into a compulsive obsession
Look at some of the cards that the Even / Odd paradigm have revive. Avenging Wrath and Argent Commander for instance. The two year rotation of recent sets has surfaced things like minion-heavy mage and spell hunter, plus some aborted attempts at other archtypes like Freeze Shaman
If the entire classic set is to be moved into wild as per your proposal than dissolve both labels altogether we return to a scenario that Blizzard wanted to avoid
I'd see one potential option being on the micro level fortnightly rotations of wild cards back to standard and so on. But this is an interesting topic I'd like to garner more opinion on.
Blizzard has been making positive steps towards making the game more affordable. Better drop rates, better preorder bonuses, powerful epics that can be played in a variety of decks. Dumping the whole core set would make the game super expensive. Plus core set cards give classes their identity. No Fireball, no Wild Growth, no Preparation, no Mind Control, no Hellfire. Losing these generic tools with good rates for their mana cost would either mean having to print mildly different variations of these cards or just rebuild classes from the ground up. I certainly don't want this and I'd be surprised if the overall majority of HS players (not just the ones who visit hearthpwn or reddit everyday) didn't feel the same way.
They will have to rework the evergreen set someday. Otherwise certain classes will always be dependant on the sets they release for having good cards. Looking at you priest. They need to look to balance the classic set by giving more options to each class.
If we start looking at each sets that were released in the past and start giving each class good tools for different archetype in the classic set from those old sets and then create new set on top of that at the rate they do now, we might end up seeing a much more varied meta. Over time they could also move those cards they added to standard back to wild.
I think we could see much more diversity. As of now, we know which cards for which classses will ALWAYS be the basic of most decks, and that is boring.
When you take out all cards that aren't core cards the game is fun and back to vanilla. I see no reason to remove the core set to replace with a new one.
the solution to this problem is that blizzard is just HoF all of the good classic cards. Eventually all of the good cards will be gone and we will be left with crap in the classic set.
I'm curious as to how the core / classic set is seen to be problematic. We as a community have the benefit of hindsight to complain about it but it has some advantages already: -
An evergreen set of cards makes the game easier to return to. In a game ecology that's already perceived in some senses as being beginner / ftp unfriendly knowing that a core set of cards will remain if you take a break is a huge perk. It doesn't turn a hobby into a compulsive obsession
Look at some of the cards that the Even / Odd paradigm have revive. Avenging Wrath and Argent Commander for instance. The two year rotation of recent sets has surfaced things like minion-heavy mage and spell hunter, plus some aborted attempts at other archtypes like Freeze Shaman
If the entire classic set is to be moved into wild as per your proposal than dissolve both labels altogether we return to a scenario that Blizzard wanted to avoid
I'd see one potential option being on the micro level fortnightly rotations of wild cards back to standard and so on. But this is an interesting topic I'd like to garner more opinion on.
im not going to make out like im an authority on the subject but from what kibler has said it boils down to the differing relative powers of the classes in the basic and classic sets. rogue has some very powerfull cards. priest on the other had has some very weak cards. this leads to the expansions always having to build around this.
e.g. in wild im running super control reno priest, now when this sort of deck was in standard it had its limitations on aoe etc. with powerfull board clear being printed every one or 2 sets for priest im not really at much of a handicap running a reno deck. i have 3 big aoes as well as DK anduin more than enough to clear most things that the thrown at me.
so this leads to some classes in wild getting more and more powerfull while other classes not changing too much as that would overpower then in standard. take miricle rogue as a good example. most of the cards it used are classis and basic. you got your backstabs and eviscerates, your si:7 and preps, then of course van cleef and auctioneer. now it has dropped off in the last few expansions but it was a mainstay for a long time with only 1 or 2 cards varying as they were added or rotated and if the meta allowed it then it would be back in a similar form to the past. freeze mage was similar untill ice block was hall of famed most of that deck was the same and differed little as new decks and cards showed up.
so you have these big swings where classes get new powerfull cards and become the meta king for a bit untill a nerf hits or a card rotates and then they fall off again, on the other hand you have some classes that stagnate as they are stifled by the power they already have and never change so become boring to play or face.
OP i think the idea of a full rotation and a new classic set is a bit much, however the recraft the classic set with mainly exsisting cards with maybe some cards hall of famed but others added back, might work better. dirty rat is often listed as a card that should be moved back into standard a few other cards in a similar vein that were good tech cards but not crazy overpowered. that along with maybe things like prep rotating as that really limits the power level of new rogue spells.
its hard to tell tbh as these top down rebalances can be hell to get right. add to much power to the classic sets and they are always used, take to much power and classic sets might as well not exsist as most of the power of a deck comes from the new cards from each expansion. as has been said dust could be a big issue as well. move to much and end up giving large chunks of dust to players that could lead to them not needing to buy packs for a while. dont give dust and gut older players collections and never get them returning to the game.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, some interesting angles here that to consider. I get one concurrent theme here and that's of chronology. Specifically I'm thinking that the core class concepts as envisaged in "vanilla Hearthstone" don't reconcile well with the ideas of standard and wild formats. For many reasons that you've highlighted today.
One thing i do dislike is the reward cards like Mekkatorque and ETC being in Wild only. That's sad.
It would be nice to see some of the old adventures rotate back in and put basic out.. like one season have naxx and karazhan, or blackrock and explorers. But, a twist being since those sets are now in standard, they won't be available for use in wild.
Blizzard has been making positive steps towards making the game more affordable. Better drop rates, better preorder bonuses, powerful epics that can be played in a variety of decks. Dumping the whole core set would make the game super expensive. Plus core set cards give classes their identity. No Fireball, no Wild Growth, no Preparation, no Mind Control, no Hellfire. Losing these generic tools with good rates for their mana cost would either mean having to print mildly different variations of these cards or just rebuild classes from the ground up. I certainly don't want this and I'd be surprised if the overall majority of HS players (not just the ones who visit hearthpwn or reddit everyday) didn't feel the same way.
Fireball, wild growth , mind control and hellfire are part of the basic set while Preparation is part of the classic.
Giving players a new core set to build off of while keeping the original for wild allows for standard to feel fresh, since blizz has been stressing we want to keep it fresh yet we still have ALOT of the classic set in almost every deck. Like i mentioned a see saw topic which is why i feel they havent changed their mind on ever changing the classic set out with NEW classic set.
The new core set idea came from my history with MTG, how they have core sets that bring a basic color identity/ class identity for each of primaries.
I think they should rework the classic set with every year. They could give an added flavor to cards, which would help define the theme of the year, while also tuning cards that are too strong or weak.
I think a lot of people have talked and discussed this, Kibler has mentioned it before that classic set is problematic.
Blizzard should try maybe creating another "core" Classic set and just move all the classic set into wild, instead this see-saw battle of well this classic card is getting strong and been around since beta we should HOF. Over time i can see classic will slowly erode to hardly anything because some cards just become problematic and reduce "design space".
Thoughts?
Please keep it civil and not about specific decks cards are in blah blah should be just nerfed to obilivion etc. etc. go off topic.
Kibler didnt want the classic set to be replaced as I recall from his Omnistone speech. Instead he wanted a ‘selection’ of cards from the classic set to be selected for each year. That way the classic set could be shuffled around depending on what was going to be in standard that year and we wouldnt have had to lose cards to Hall of Fame.
I think this is a much better idea than creating a whole new classic set, personally, since otherwise tou might as well just scrub EVERY card at the end of their lifespan with no classic set.
Alternatively I have always thought that the classic set should really only comprise of vanilla and basic low-power abilities. That way expansions can build on them easily without having to compete for deck space due to power differences.
I think a lot of people have talked and discussed this, Kibler has mentioned it before that classic set is problematic.
Blizzard should try maybe creating another "core" Classic set and just move all the classic set into wild, instead this see-saw battle of well this classic card is getting strong and been around since beta we should HOF. Over time i can see classic will slowly erode to hardly anything because some cards just become problematic and reduce "design space".
Thoughts?
Please keep it civil and not about specific decks cards are in blah blah should be just nerfed to obilivion etc. etc. go off topic.
Kibler didnt want the classic set to be replaced as I recall from his Omnistone speech. Instead he wanted a ‘selection’ of cards from the classic set to be selected for each year. That way the classic set could be shuffled around depending on what was going to be in standard that year and we wouldnt have had to lose cards to Hall of Fame.
I think this is a much better idea than creating a whole new classic set, personally, since otherwise tou might as well just scrub EVERY card at the end of their lifespan with no classic set.
Alternatively I have always thought that the classic set should really only comprise of vanilla and basic low-power abilities. That way expansions can build on them easily without having to compete for deck space due to power differences.
that lies the problem with classic is that its not basic low power ablities, thats what apparently the basic set is.
i would love if (each year) blizzard rotates the cards in the classic with the cards from previous expansions, taking into consideration to bring cards from hall of fame back to the classic set.
I think a lot of people have talked and discussed this, Kibler has mentioned it before that classic set is problematic.
Blizzard should try maybe creating another "core" Classic set and just move all the classic set into wild, instead this see-saw battle of well this classic card is getting strong and been around since beta we should HOF. Over time i can see classic will slowly erode to hardly anything because some cards just become problematic and reduce "design space".
Thoughts?
Please keep it civil and not about specific decks cards are in blah blah should be just nerfed to obilivion etc. etc. go off topic.
Kibler didnt want the classic set to be replaced as I recall from his Omnistone speech. Instead he wanted a ‘selection’ of cards from the classic set to be selected for each year. That way the classic set could be shuffled around depending on what was going to be in standard that year and we wouldnt have had to lose cards to Hall of Fame.
I think this is a much better idea than creating a whole new classic set, personally, since otherwise tou might as well just scrub EVERY card at the end of their lifespan with no classic set.
Alternatively I have always thought that the classic set should really only comprise of vanilla and basic low-power abilities. That way expansions can build on them easily without having to compete for deck space due to power differences.
Best choice is expand the core set with cards from various Wild sets. Have about 1/2 to 2/3 standard and the remainder Wild each year and move a significant number each way at the time of rotation. Sure, have mage without fireball for a year.
You also have the option of doing more minor rotations each expansion or even for balance reasons. Let’s say Golakka Crawler gets put in the wild side of the core set. You release a set and find Pirates are way too common, just move it back to standard in a patch.
I'm happy with the evergreen set. Few, if any cards need to rotate out of there (thanks to the power level of future expansions).
My one problem is certain tech cards should just be classic. It's silly adding a new secret counter every two years (I think Eater of Secrets should be evergreen). Dirty Rat is another solid tech card that nobody ever called op, but it helps disrupt certain decks a lot (while being extremely detrimental in other decks).
I can't really think of other clear tech cards that deserve to be standard, but I'm sure they're out there.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Twitch name: Anatak15 NA Legend Season 48, 49, 52, 53, 54, 74
Rotating it to wild is nonsense that would make millions quit. That’s why Hall of Fame exists, to remove ‘problematic’ classic cards to Wild. Very simple.
I Think the best solution would be to transition different groups of classic cards in and out of standard while also reintroducing some wild cards back into standard every year.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I think a lot of people have talked and discussed this, Kibler has mentioned it before that classic set is problematic.
Blizzard should try maybe creating another "core" Classic set and just move all the classic set into wild, instead this see-saw battle of well this classic card is getting strong and been around since beta we should HOF. Over time i can see classic will slowly erode to hardly anything because some cards just become problematic and reduce "design space".
Thoughts?
Please keep it civil and not about specific decks cards are in blah blah should be just nerfed to obilivion etc. etc. go off topic.
Do or do not. There is no try.
I agree that it should probably rotate, but. This is the key thing, BUT, it depends on how they handle it. Some type of dust must be given. Some form of renumeration. This is most likely the reason it has yet to implemented.
On one hand, picture a free to play player, they usually try to grab classic cards and rate getting these cards higher because they are advertised as always remaining in standard.
If suddenly they rotate, and no dust is given then that player would most likely quit.
However if they give back that dust to the player, that will be a lot of dust and likely break the game.
I'm curious as to how the core / classic set is seen to be problematic. We as a community have the benefit of hindsight to complain about it but it has some advantages already: -
I'd see one potential option being on the micro level fortnightly rotations of wild cards back to standard and so on. But this is an interesting topic I'd like to garner more opinion on.
Golden Hero Collections thus far; -
Europe: Druid, Hunter, Paladin, Mage, Priest, Rogue, Shaman, Warlock, Warrior (9/9)
Americas: Druid, Mage, Paladin Shaman (4/9)
Everywhere else: Workin on it.. (0/9)
Blizzard has been making positive steps towards making the game more affordable. Better drop rates, better preorder bonuses, powerful epics that can be played in a variety of decks. Dumping the whole core set would make the game super expensive. Plus core set cards give classes their identity. No Fireball, no Wild Growth, no Preparation, no Mind Control, no Hellfire. Losing these generic tools with good rates for their mana cost would either mean having to print mildly different variations of these cards or just rebuild classes from the ground up. I certainly don't want this and I'd be surprised if the overall majority of HS players (not just the ones who visit hearthpwn or reddit everyday) didn't feel the same way.
They will have to rework the evergreen set someday. Otherwise certain classes will always be dependant on the sets they release for having good cards. Looking at you priest. They need to look to balance the classic set by giving more options to each class.
If we start looking at each sets that were released in the past and start giving each class good tools for different archetype in the classic set from those old sets and then create new set on top of that at the rate they do now, we might end up seeing a much more varied meta. Over time they could also move those cards they added to standard back to wild.
I think we could see much more diversity. As of now, we know which cards for which classses will ALWAYS be the basic of most decks, and that is boring.
When you take out all cards that aren't core cards the game is fun and back to vanilla. I see no reason to remove the core set to replace with a new one.
the solution to this problem is that blizzard is just HoF all of the good classic cards. Eventually all of the good cards will be gone and we will be left with crap in the classic set.
Golden Hero Collections thus far; -
Europe: Druid, Hunter, Paladin, Mage, Priest, Rogue, Shaman, Warlock, Warrior (9/9)
Americas: Druid, Mage, Paladin Shaman (4/9)
Everywhere else: Workin on it.. (0/9)
It would be nice to see some of the old adventures rotate back in and put basic out.. like one season have naxx and karazhan, or blackrock and explorers. But, a twist being since those sets are now in standard, they won't be available for use in wild.
Phant4sm#1722
Do or do not. There is no try.
I think they should rework the classic set with every year. They could give an added flavor to cards, which would help define the theme of the year, while also tuning cards that are too strong or weak.
Do or do not. There is no try.
i would love if (each year) blizzard rotates the cards in the classic with the cards from previous expansions, taking into consideration to bring cards from hall of fame back to the classic set.
I wouldn't trade stability for freshness, I wouldn't like the classic set moving to wild
I'm happy with the evergreen set. Few, if any cards need to rotate out of there (thanks to the power level of future expansions).
My one problem is certain tech cards should just be classic. It's silly adding a new secret counter every two years (I think Eater of Secrets should be evergreen). Dirty Rat is another solid tech card that nobody ever called op, but it helps disrupt certain decks a lot (while being extremely detrimental in other decks).
I can't really think of other clear tech cards that deserve to be standard, but I'm sure they're out there.
Twitch name: Anatak15
NA Legend Season 48, 49, 52, 53, 54, 74
Rotating it to wild is nonsense that would make millions quit. That’s why Hall of Fame exists, to remove ‘problematic’ classic cards to Wild. Very simple.
I Think the best solution would be to transition different groups of classic cards in and out of standard while also reintroducing some wild cards back into standard every year.