I can't stand Warlocks anymore, they have to many board clears, to many removal, to many heals, and the "nerf" wont do anything against them. I don't want to play this BS I'm not like that even if I could, but how can you make things so unbalanced ??
This isn't a post to whine, I want to get constructive answers to this seriously big problem : what am I supposed to do against this board clear control BS and the 70% of people playing it, even with the perfect draws and what seems to be winning hands and board states ?
Board clears, heals and removal count , good luck :
And to make things worse, they miss the cards needed nerfs, the changes are absolutely irrelevant, DK warlock remain again untouched.
It is broken cards after broken cards after more broken cards, the class is perfectly with any weakness at all.
Why they refuse to massively overnerf this insane and absurd card is beyond any excuse.
I really don't get it, even streamers don't want to play this anymore, it's simply disgusting and unfair, just clear the board until you've got your demons, heal, bring them back to life and get an OP hero power, gg wp...
Not that kind of control, litteraly half of the deck consists in board clear and removals, it is absolutely insane, the nerf wont change anything, and Blizzard wont do anything else until next year...
What exactly is your point? You went up against a bad matchup and lost. A Control deck, which obviously is full of Board Clears and Removal tools, what did you actually expect?
Seriously, there's complaining about broken cards and then there is just venting frustration outside of the Salt Thread, which is what you are doing.
Thats his point. There shouldn't be games that are decided before the game even starts. Its boring and is the main reason why people quit. That's basic game design, decisions should matter. Instead its just brainless playing on curve, the same 3 combos, the same boardclears, and maybe a little bit of matter. He had no way to outplay his opponent, it was literally an impossible matchup. And that shouldn't happen.
If your answer is just "play control", you're wrong too. Lots of control decks still consistently lose to cubelock. Want to tell me the game is balanced, you just have to play hyper-control?
What exactly is your point? You went up against a bad matchup and lost. A Control deck, which obviously is full of Board Clears and Removal tools, what did you actually expect?
Seriously, there's complaining about broken cards and then there is just venting frustration outside of the Salt Thread, which is what you are doing.
When the game started, your chances to win were really slim as the Warlock, specially the Control version, is massively favoured against you. You would have to line-up a pretty good draw and also be capable of outplaying your opponent to get a win from that game, but you didn't, so you lost.
Aside from that, nothing new there. You would be complaining basically the same way if that was a hyper Control Warrior instead of a Hyper Control Warlock. Tools are different but the result is almost the same, they would crush you out of resources.
Just tell me which deck is "Highly favoured" against Control Warlock ? Early on, you can't all in because the Defiles threatens your board, then you've got to deal with Hellfires. Your big threats aren't a problem for them since they can Siphon Soul or Lesser Amethyst Spellstone them. Try to push for board control again and you get destroyed by Twisting Nether. And I don't even talk about Dark Pact and Possessed Lackey which breaks all your hopes.
If all these cards played twice aren't enough to crush your dreams, get wrecked by Lord Godfrey and Bloodreaver Gul'dan. GG WP, EZ Clap.
Basically, your deck has to kill them without minions while outrunning their heals. I can predict every single play the control warlock is gonna make, but I can't win whatever I do EVEN if I get lucky, sorry but you HAVE to have a chance.
Also, it is extremely contradictory that you talk of "Brainless" play, when the OP is playing one of the lowest technically demanding playstyles in the game, Midrange. The Shaman deck can be piloted by nearly any player and yield roughly the same result, be it from a Pro or a Noob. The same cannot be said about a Control deck like the Warlock, and that is not even close to the hardest of the decks/playstyles available.
What the heck, did you watch the replay ? You simply play board clears after board clears, where is the difficulty ?? I have to think about each play massively : Am I about to get defiled, what is my board state, will I take risks knowing that there is a 50% chance that he has another nether ? Are you kidding me ?
Al'Akir the Windlord wasn't played because I hoped to play it with Flametongue Totem or Earthen Might for a 10 damage face hit, because I knew he could sustain the damage if I didn't kill him in one turn...
You don't even know how hard it is to think about all the possibilites knowing you're about to get wiped out whatever you do, and don't talk about "bad matchups", I play for 4 years and know what "bad matchups" are, this is broken.
No matter what deck you make, there will be decks out there which will completely destroy you, which are extremely difficult to beat with your deck. That is normal, that is part of balance. Your deck should not be able to EASILY defeat every deck out there, that would be broken balance. In good balance, you have easy matchups and hard matchups.
You say it yourself man... You play against Hardonox Druid and suddenly you have to think a little bit more, geez Louise ! And I think even Hadronox can't keep up with all these board clears if the Warlock runs silence ...
Thats his point. There shouldn't be games that are decided before the game even starts. Its boring and is the main reason why people quit. That's basic game design, decisions should matter. Instead its just brainless playing on curve, the same 3 combos, the same boardclears, and maybe a little bit of matter. He had no way to outplay his opponent, it was literally an impossible matchup. And that shouldn't happen.
No game is decided before the game starts. The game was not decided before it started. It was MASSIVELY FAVOURED for the Warlock because that is how both these decks interact between them, but it was not decided. As I said, if the OP had a good draw and managed to outplay the Warlock, he would win, but that was not the case, so he lost, which is what will happen at least 70% of the games of this exact Matchup. There is no problem with this simple fact, that is how it works and not a problem with that being the case.
Boring depends on each person, as well as their reasoning to quit. I would never quit in the place of the OP, at least not from Heathstone. What makes me want to quit in Hearthstone is the design flaws that make players who play poorly not be punished by their mistakes and still manage to beat me, that is what is frustrating and worth leaving for, not simple a normal occurence from normal balance, which is what the OP experienced.
No matter what deck you make, there will be decks out there which will completely destroy you, which are extremely difficult to beat with your deck. That is normal, that is part of balance. Your deck should not be able to EASILY defeat every deck out there, that would be broken balance. In good balance, you have easy matchups and hard matchups.
Also, it is extremely contradictory that you talk of "Brainless" play, when the OP is playing one of the lowest technically demanding playstyles in the game, Midrange. The Shaman deck can be piloted by nearly any player and yield roughly the same result, be it from a Pro or a Noob. The same cannot be said about a Control deck like the Warlock, and that is not even close to the hardest of the decks/playstyles available.
It is not an impossible matchup, just a really bad one, there is almost always a way to outplay the opponent. Why did he end his game with Al'Akir in hand? A hard card to remove after both Siphons and a Nether, yet he went with other plays before it when he could have put that thing down. There's always other plays you can make, if you look back and think.
Nothing wrong with having really hard matchups, I'm a Freeze Mage main and I always loved the Control Warrior Matchup even despite how extremely hard it is, because it always forced me to outplay the Warriors to beat them, and that is where you learn, in unfavourable positions. If all you do is play favourable matchups and easy game, you never learn. It's when you face real challenges that you trully learn something.
Explain how he could've outplayed the warlock. Explain how any deck other than burn mage or hyper-control can possibly outplay warlock.
Sure, if his draw had been amazing and the warlock's was trash he would've easily won.But that's very uncommon and not a valid point.
What the heck, did you watch the replay man ??? You simply play board clears after board clear, where is the difficulty ?? I have to think about each play : Am I about to get defiled, what is my board state, will I take risks knowing that there is a 50% chance that he has another nether ? Are you kidding me ???
Yeah I did watch the replay, that is why I don't know why you ended the game with Al'Akir in hand after seeing the Nether and both Siphons.
If you don't believe me, I have a task for you.
Play 200 games with Control Warlock and 200 games with that Midrange Shaman. You are going to notice, at the end, that your win-rate with Shaman will be marginally higher than the Warlock, despite the fact that the Warlock deck has a higher power level than the Shaman. It simply comes down to the Midrange Shaman deck being much easier to pilot and you will do better with that deck, even if the Warlock has a higher power level when piloted correctly, which you won't be able to do that well.
Tell me one thing you have to think about when you play Warlock, the scheme is always the same, more or less... Yes, indeed, you have to think a bit when you play against mirror or Control Druid, thank God !
The thing is that even Hyper Aggressive and Midrange decks which where counters to Control get destroyed because they run out of steam against all these clears, this is the point.
Yeah I did watch the replay, that is why I don't know why you ended the game with Al'Akir in hand after seeing the Nether and both Siphons.
Al'Akir the Windlord was a dead card I knew it, I perfectly knew that he would out sustain me, I ran out of steam and luck (even after getting Frostmourne and two Voidlords, I could have conceded one turn before you're right).
I certainly did mistakes, I'm not pro' player, but I think I did pretty well and made the right decisions, didn't over extend. As I said earlier Al'Akir was my only hope to close the game, but I had to play something else each turn because he had the answer to each of my plays. I hoped for an Earthen Might or Flametongue Totem + Al'Akir to finish him. Watch this replay again if needed, and you'll see that I hadn't the opportunity to play him against another card more suited for the situation.
With the nerf to Dark Pact coming tomorrow, you would have had lethal in turn 12, since the opponent would have had 8 less life. It's possible that the opponent would have tapped fewer times then, but that would have delayed the DK, which is also very much in your favor. So I think the planned nerfs already address the unfairness you're feeling.
By the way, if the replay is working correctly, you are always playing your minions on the right hand side of the board. That's not ideal: since totems are also summoned there, ideally you'd want more valuable minions on the left hand side, so if you have a Flametongue Totem, you can sacrifice your hero power totems while still having minions on either side of the Flametongue. See for example the situation at the end of turn 3: it would be much better if the Knife Juggler was on the left side of the Flametongue. It didn't matter in this game because everything got Hellfired, but on average you can push more damage with better positioning.
We almost made it to my point : you don't have to adapt your game plan as a Warlock, you aren't multidimensional, you have way to much board clears, and you only have to think about which one you'll use, and this is far from difficult.. You simply hope that it will be enough, with your heals and giants, until your Bloodreaver Gul'Dan pops out, and then out sustain your opponent. I'm not complaining about the archetype but about the fact that Warlock has way to muxh powerful tools to do so. You're almost certainly sure to always have an answer to whatever your opponent plays, that shouldn't be the case. That's why Blizzard tried to nerf them, but already failed IMO..
With the nerf to Dark Pact coming tomorrow, you would have had lethal in turn 12, since the opponent would have had 8 less life. It's possible that the opponent would have tapped fewer times then, but that would have delayed the DK, which is also very much in your favor. So I think the planned nerfs already address the unfairness you're feeling.
By the way, if the replay is working correctly, you are always playing your minions on the right hand side of the board. That's not ideal: since totems are also summoned there, ideally you'd want more valuable minions on the left hand side, so if you have a Flametongue Totem, you can sacrifice your hero power totems while still having minions on either side of the Flametongue. See for example the situation at the end of turn 3: it would be much better if the Knife Juggler was on the left side of the Flametongue. It didn't matter in this game because everything got Hellfired, but on average you can push more damage with better positioning.
Thanks for your helpful answer, I'll try to think about this fact more often, you are perfectly right !
IMO the nerf wont help much, but it might indeed be enough, let's wait and see !
You can aggro them down with burn mage, you can out-controk them with taunt druid, or you can use any of a number of OTK decks.. Quit whining
I apologize for my rude tone. My point is, some decks lose, but some can beat it. No deck will win against everything in the meta, and that's good. You need to decide what you want to beat, and what you want to lose against.
Look can we stop arguing? the post was about warlock's overabundance of board clears, not "your deck isn't complex" "yeah it is let me prove it".
Each deck has its strengths and weaknesses. Aggro beats combo, combo beats control, control beats aggro. Simple stuff, on paper. What that doesn't tell you is that any deck piloted correctly is stronger than any other deck piloted incorrectly. And I'm not talking "play minions go face" with aggro or "hyper draw and stall till you hit your combo" with combo or "sit back and clear board over and over" with control. I'm talking about matchups, which is (theoretically) reason this game is so complex and fun. It's all about reading your opponent's hand, deck, archetype, gameplan, etc. A good example of this is Miracle Rogue. First time I tried to play miracle rogue (during the Un' Goro meta) I lost like 8 games straight because I didn't know how to properly play around clears, burst, board flood, etc, and I was so confused because I'd heard about all these people playing it and how it was so awesome but until I got to be able to read my opponent's hand and deck I didn't know what I was doing and therefore lost over and over.
You lost against a Warlock. Their deck is made to beat yours. Accept it, and figure out what you did wrong and improve your next match. That's about all you can do.
As many already stated different styles of decks have different winrates against different matchups. Some asked for Control Warlock's weaknesses so here are a few examples of unfavorable match-ups: the deck type loses hard against Control Priest and, if one doesn't draw either one of his two Dark Pacts, you're pretty much doomed against aggressive styles of play. Control Warlock is also highly unfavored against Quest Rogue. Also, I played against many Control or Cube variants and have beat them pretty consistently with Control Mage (100% winrate against Taunt Druid which I read someone complaining about). The up and coming nerfs will highlight these weaknesses, effectively limiting the amount of Warlocks you'll see.. Well this what I suspect could happen, but who knows for sure?
As for this game: you played well imo, but were unlucky (as opposed to your opponent who was very lucky in drawing all the right answers and his DK just in time). What I would've done differently was play Al'Akir the Windlord earlier, but even then I'm not sure if it would've affected the outcome of the game. In defense of the warlock player, he did set up his Lord Godfrey pretty well, which can be pretty tricky to do.
The point I'm trying to make is that since your question was: "Tell me what I was supposed to do", well IN THIS GAME there's nothing you could've done to change the outcome. But from the footage and gameplay you provided I'm pretty sure the match-up is closer to a 50% winrate, which can be frustrating if encountering it often, but nothing impossible to overcome (especially with the new nerfs).
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Hello guys !
Replay here : https://hsreplay.net/replay/B94DZidbgzfXJnU5g3kN37
I can't stand Warlocks anymore, they have to many board clears, to many removal, to many heals, and the "nerf" wont do anything against them. I don't want to play this BS I'm not like that even if I could, but how can you make things so unbalanced ??
This isn't a post to whine, I want to get constructive answers to this seriously big problem : what am I supposed to do against this board clear control BS and the 70% of people playing it, even with the perfect draws and what seems to be winning hands and board states ?
Board clears, heals and removal count , good luck :
Siphon Soul x2
Dark Pact x2
Twisting Nether x2
Defile x2
Hellfire x2
Lesser Amethyst Spellstone x2
Lord Godfrey
Bloodreaver Gul'dan
Link to the game replay : https://hsreplay.net/replay/B94DZidbgzfXJnU5g3kN3
Hyper control or OTK
fun and interactive
Unpopular opinion: Rogue is OP
And to make things worse, they miss the cards needed nerfs, the changes are absolutely irrelevant, DK warlock remain again untouched.
It is broken cards after broken cards after more broken cards, the class is perfectly with any weakness at all.
Why they refuse to massively overnerf this insane and absurd card is beyond any excuse.
Geez! It's what you want right? Control.
The only thing the nerfs will make a difference in is the aggro matchup. Control and Midrange can go f*ck themselves.
Turn 6 voidlord, followed by cube into two more voidlords, once you finally kill those they're all resumonned by Guldan 2 turns later.
But don't worry guys, it uses Lord Godfrey so its technically a witchwood deck!
Unpopular opinion: Rogue is OP
Are you really looking for advice on this game or are you just wanting to complain about losing what is probably an unfavorable matchup?
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Quote from DiamondDM13 >>
What exactly is your point? You went up against a bad matchup and lost. A Control deck, which obviously is full of Board Clears and Removal tools, what did you actually expect?
Seriously, there's complaining about broken cards and then there is just venting frustration outside of the Salt Thread, which is what you are doing.
Unpopular opinion: Rogue is OP
If all these cards played twice aren't enough to crush your dreams, get wrecked by Lord Godfrey and Bloodreaver Gul'dan. GG WP, EZ Clap.
You don't even know how hard it is to think about all the possibilites knowing you're about to get wiped out whatever you do, and don't talk about "bad matchups", I play for 4 years and know what "bad matchups" are, this is broken.
Unpopular opinion: Rogue is OP
The thing is that even Hyper Aggressive and Midrange decks which where counters to Control get destroyed because they run out of steam against all these clears, this is the point.
Al'Akir the Windlord was a dead card I knew it, I perfectly knew that he would out sustain me, I ran out of steam and luck (even after getting Frostmourne and two Voidlords, I could have conceded one turn before you're right).
I certainly did mistakes, I'm not pro' player, but I think I did pretty well and made the right decisions, didn't over extend. As I said earlier Al'Akir was my only hope to close the game, but I had to play something else each turn because he had the answer to each of my plays. I hoped for an Earthen Might or Flametongue Totem + Al'Akir to finish him. Watch this replay again if needed, and you'll see that I hadn't the opportunity to play him against another card more suited for the situation.
With the nerf to Dark Pact coming tomorrow, you would have had lethal in turn 12, since the opponent would have had 8 less life. It's possible that the opponent would have tapped fewer times then, but that would have delayed the DK, which is also very much in your favor. So I think the planned nerfs already address the unfairness you're feeling.
By the way, if the replay is working correctly, you are always playing your minions on the right hand side of the board. That's not ideal: since totems are also summoned there, ideally you'd want more valuable minions on the left hand side, so if you have a Flametongue Totem, you can sacrifice your hero power totems while still having minions on either side of the Flametongue. See for example the situation at the end of turn 3: it would be much better if the Knife Juggler was on the left side of the Flametongue. It didn't matter in this game because everything got Hellfired, but on average you can push more damage with better positioning.
We almost made it to my point : you don't have to adapt your game plan as a Warlock, you aren't multidimensional, you have way to much board clears, and you only have to think about which one you'll use, and this is far from difficult.. You simply hope that it will be enough, with your heals and giants, until your Bloodreaver Gul'Dan pops out, and then out sustain your opponent. I'm not complaining about the archetype but about the fact that Warlock has way to muxh powerful tools to do so. You're almost certainly sure to always have an answer to whatever your opponent plays, that shouldn't be the case. That's why Blizzard tried to nerf them, but already failed IMO..
You can aggro them down with burn mage, you can out-controk them with taunt druid, or you can use any of a number of OTK decks.. Quit whining
Look can we stop arguing? the post was about warlock's overabundance of board clears, not "your deck isn't complex" "yeah it is let me prove it".
Each deck has its strengths and weaknesses. Aggro beats combo, combo beats control, control beats aggro. Simple stuff, on paper. What that doesn't tell you is that any deck piloted correctly is stronger than any other deck piloted incorrectly. And I'm not talking "play minions go face" with aggro or "hyper draw and stall till you hit your combo" with combo or "sit back and clear board over and over" with control. I'm talking about matchups, which is (theoretically) reason this game is so complex and fun. It's all about reading your opponent's hand, deck, archetype, gameplan, etc. A good example of this is Miracle Rogue. First time I tried to play miracle rogue (during the Un' Goro meta) I lost like 8 games straight because I didn't know how to properly play around clears, burst, board flood, etc, and I was so confused because I'd heard about all these people playing it and how it was so awesome but until I got to be able to read my opponent's hand and deck I didn't know what I was doing and therefore lost over and over.
You lost against a Warlock. Their deck is made to beat yours. Accept it, and figure out what you did wrong and improve your next match. That's about all you can do.
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As many already stated different styles of decks have different winrates against different matchups.
Some asked for Control Warlock's weaknesses so here are a few examples of unfavorable match-ups: the deck type loses hard against Control Priest and, if one doesn't draw either one of his two Dark Pacts, you're pretty much doomed against aggressive styles of play. Control Warlock is also highly unfavored against Quest Rogue. Also, I played against many Control or Cube variants and have beat them pretty consistently with Control Mage (100% winrate against Taunt Druid which I read someone complaining about). The up and coming nerfs will highlight these weaknesses, effectively limiting the amount of Warlocks you'll see.. Well this what I suspect could happen, but who knows for sure?
As for this game: you played well imo, but were unlucky (as opposed to your opponent who was very lucky in drawing all the right answers and his DK just in time). What I would've done differently was play Al'Akir the Windlord earlier, but even then I'm not sure if it would've affected the outcome of the game. In defense of the warlock player, he did set up his Lord Godfrey pretty well, which can be pretty tricky to do.
The point I'm trying to make is that since your question was: "Tell me what I was supposed to do", well IN THIS GAME there's nothing you could've done to change the outcome. But from the footage and gameplay you provided I'm pretty sure the match-up is closer to a 50% winrate, which can be frustrating if encountering it often, but nothing impossible to overcome (especially with the new nerfs).