Most people adopt what has already been tested. Some earlier in the process, some later. Only a bare mimimum are innovators. Be it because of safety concerns (don't we fuss about folks skating the 'bleeding edge'?) cost (as others stated, most don't pay so they can't just make random decks), time (as others have said), or just because.
Games get around this typically by letting you play with fellow innovators and avoid the 'pub game' experience. Thus folks who remember MTG without netdecking due to playing with a few friends and neighbors far away from the official meta.
The solution isn't to try to get 97% of the population to do what they don't want to do (or kick them all out). It's to improve social features so that you can better work with and find like minded players and play with them regularly.
....did I just find a supporting argument for a CHAT feature?! Oh #()$#(% no! I think I did! :/
Agreed. We could have fifty decks on the ladder, but we have like 5 because nobody has any imagination.
Thats why wild is better haha :P but even there you have top decks and very few home made decks..i never netdeck.. Because i am very happy when my deck is good enough to pass rank 5, 4, 3 etc... I can tell that im good renolock builder :)
I'm talking about wild; that's all I play. Togwaggle druid, naga giants, aggro paladin, and a few others like mill rogue, aggro mage, or cubelock.
Agreed. We could have fifty decks on the ladder, but we have like 5 because nobody has any imagination.
Thats why wild is better haha :P but even there you have top decks and very few home made decks..i never netdeck.. Because i am very happy when my deck is good enough to pass rank 5, 4, 3 etc... I can tell that im good renolock builder :)
I'm talking about wild; that's all I play. Togwaggle druid, naga giants, aggro paladin, and a few others like mill rogue, aggro mage, or cubelock.
Sorry my bad then :) i didnt encounter any togwaggle druid for now xd but still i have seen some funy decks that you cant find here on net.
It's not a problem.. if you know all the enemy decks by heart you can try to counter their strategy easier.. so people who come up with decks that are good against current game state go higher in ranks.
I made it to rank 5 in the first week of release with Baku Priest, using Glittermoth into Void Ripper. A few days after that though my deck was unplayable, when control warrior became popular my deck couldn't beat it (except ONCE, it was the win that got me rank 5) and Cubelock also beat me once he dropped 9 mana Taunt. Unfortunately the deck isn't viable anymore but maybe next expansion there'll be better cards to fill out the deck, the main problem I had is bad starts, considering Priest lacks strong 1 drops, apart from Cleric, and early game synergies to fight for board control, especially without 2 cost cards.
Deckbuilding is a complicated thing. It's fun, but very few people (in percentage) can build an effective deck out of the blue. I deckbuild when I want to deckbuild, not when I need a deck for ladder. Then, if the deck is working fine (positive win rate is what I consider 'fine') I'll use it on ladder, too, but that's secondary.
What you have to consider, too, is that in a certain place in time (season) and space (server, rank) there's a limited amount of effective solutions for ladder, and by effective I mean something that you can achieve a wr of around 60% with. This DOESN'T depend on netdecking. Netdecking is the way you can know what these effective solutions are (if you're not playing that much, otherwise you can just reconstruct other people lists on ladder with a tracker). Other than that, knowing what other people are playing is a way for deckbuilders to know what's working and what isn't not having to try everything in first person.
If we ignore for a moment the fluctuation in efficiency due what other decks are played, sharing lists helps finding out the meta, not creating it! And thus a good deckbuilder, when looking for the most efficient solution for ladder, with the right amount of time, would find the same lists that are meta in that moment rather than new ones. Ofc there are other 'fine' decks you can create and play, if it's more fun to you, but other people may have fun with a meta deck, too.
What makes wild more 'deckbuilding friendly' is the general lack of players. The amount of people looking for decks is too little compared to the amount of cards to be tested, so even if there's a meta it's not so bulletproof, because it's not completely find out and people isn't playing the most efficient solutions yet (and probably will never be if number of players doesn't grow). That's what I most enjoy about wild.
I don't think there's anything wrong with netdecking - in fact, you can make the case that the more strictly players are netdecking, the simpler it becomes to play against those decks. You'll know more confidently their exact decklist and likely cards in hand, which (hand reading/deck tracking) is a valuable skill to develop to become a solid player. Also, I think if you're *only* netdecking, you're limiting how good you could be, but the problem is, your un-tech'd netdeck is probably good enough to get you where you want to be, regardless of making tech choices, so that's probably why most players never really think about their deck's composition and how different choices affect the general synergy. If you want to watch a good series on that topic, watch Firebat's "Deck Doctor" series.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
As long as a strategy FOR ANYTHING is successful, people will copy it.
Strategy for beating a boss in a video game? Copied. A play in a football game? Copied. A successful political strategy? Copied. A deck in a collectible card game? Copied. A way to make money? Copied.
Netdecking isn't the actual problem. People copy decks for different reasons:
a. time saver - i just want to play a good deck and dont feel like thinking or building a competitive deck
b. know thy enemy - i just want to know WHY this deck is the best, so I will play it, and then understand how to beat it
Regardless of the reasons, I think the reason why people do it and the negativity attached to it are fairly obvious to me:
1. You are playing a deck that you put zero work into and zero development. Yet you are climbing the ladder and winning games to no additional effort on your part. It 'feels' like cheating.
Now, I may or may not agree with the above statement, but I think that's where many people who hate netdecking fall into. It feels like you are copying someone else's homework and in school, thats a big no no and you can fail or get in trouble for doing that.
If you copied a novel or music, you could get fined or sued for copyright infringement. So I believe there is this thinking that netdecking is the same as these things we see as cheating.
Either way, I netdeck for knowing my enemy. Once I figure out the decisions that go into the deck, I can build my other decks to beat them better.
if you're not netdecking, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage since why would you play something that is categorically weaker than something else
I dont think it's a problem of ranked, when you want to climb with the most rerefined deck, but it is a problem of casual, it is not the point of the mode and netdeckers ruin it.
This I can agree with. People who play meta decks in ranked are simply people who are scared to lose ranks in ranked and want to farm gold/quests, regardless of whatever excuses they come up with.
"I'm testing a new deck". Yeah, that will surely work just fine if you're playing against people with basic decks, or Pirate Mage.
"I just want to get the quest done and don't want to lose rank". Yeah, that sort of just acknowledges that you're doing it because you're scared of losing your rank.
Being a deck designer is not a prerequisite of the game. No one complains that the pro players go into tournaments with decks that come right off of ladder. Kripp's Challengestone was a great way to move away from that. But in the end, it is just a lame criticism for those who lose, or an ego boost for those who win.
As much as I hate it and rarely ever do it, it can’t ever be a problem because it will always exist and you can always counter popular decks. Balancing is the real problem but hopefully the upcoming changes can help the game out.
I don't think there's anything wrong with netdecking - in fact, you can make the case that the more strictly players are netdecking, the simpler it becomes to play against those decks. You'll know more confidently their exact decklist and likely cards in hand, which (hand reading/deck tracking) is a valuable skill to develop to become a solid player. Also, I think if you're *only* netdecking, you're limiting how good you could be, but the problem is, your un-tech'd netdeck is probably good enough to get you where you want to be, regardless of making tech choices, so that's probably why most players never really think about their deck's composition and how different choices affect the general synergy. If you want to watch a good series on that topic, watch Firebat's "Deck Doctor" series.
this is facts. Netdecking isn't an issue but if you overuse it, you're limiting your personal skill in this game
As long as a strategy FOR ANYTHING is successful, people will copy it.
Strategy for beating a boss in a video game? Copied. A play in a football game? Copied. A successful political strategy? Copied. A deck in a collectible card game? Copied. A way to make money? Copied.
I don't think there's anything wrong with netdecking - in fact, you can make the case that the more strictly players are netdecking, the simpler it becomes to play against those decks. You'll know more confidently their exact decklist and likely cards in hand, which (hand reading/deck tracking) is a valuable skill to develop to become a solid player. Also, I think if you're *only* netdecking, you're limiting how good you could be, but the problem is, your un-tech'd netdeck is probably good enough to get you where you want to be, regardless of making tech choices, so that's probably why most players never really think about their deck's composition and how different choices affect the general synergy. If you want to watch a good series on that topic, watch Firebat's "Deck Doctor" series.
this is facts. Netdecking isn't an issue but if you overuse it, you're limiting your personal skill in this game
The trick: most people aren't wanting to push themselves to the next level. They don't mind reducing the top end of their personal skill. This isn't a "OMG the horrible sheep/casual/humans" knock. This is a perfectly acceptable element of the game. We all have parts of our lives we want to push ourselves in. For some, it's hearthstone. For those that do, I hope they have an open mind as far as netdecking, not hating it mindlessly or becoming dependent on it. Netdecking should be something you should do when it's to your benefit and it should not be what yo do when you can benefit from avoiding it. Tournaments have ton of stories of times when the people who worked against the trend beat the masses and ones where those who went on their own got slaughtered.
It's just a tool. use it when it works, or don't when it doesn't. But it's just a 'thing'.
For most though, hearthstone isn't the 'next level' focus. It's their hobby. Let people play their hobby.
should folks who hate playing the same decks over and over be able to enjoy the game? YES. But me and others are saying that this isn't some failing of hearthstone or even a 'net thing'. It's something that always comes when you have a mass audience public forum for playing. That "play" button will always bring the same 3-5 strategies, no matter what game or style it's shown in. Filtering the masses and playing with a specialized group has, since before the web, been the way to avoid such a fate. It's no different now.
if you're not netdecking, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage since why would you play something that is categorically weaker than something else
Not necessarily. Some of the best decks aren't netdecks. The problem with netdecking isn't that it means everyone's playing the TOP decks. It's that everyone is playing the SAME decks. I want to see VARIETY in my opponents. If I play 20 games in a night, I want to see 18-20 different decks, not 3-4.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
It's not a problem.. if you know all the enemy decks by heart you can try to counter their strategy easier.. so people who come up with decks that are good against current game state go higher in ranks.
Why tf it is problem? People play what they want.
I made it to rank 5 in the first week of release with Baku Priest, using Glittermoth into Void Ripper. A few days after that though my deck was unplayable, when control warrior became popular my deck couldn't beat it (except ONCE, it was the win that got me rank 5) and Cubelock also beat me once he dropped 9 mana Taunt. Unfortunately the deck isn't viable anymore but maybe next expansion there'll be better cards to fill out the deck, the main problem I had is bad starts, considering Priest lacks strong 1 drops, apart from Cleric, and early game synergies to fight for board control, especially without 2 cost cards.
This topic is basically asking "Is doing research to better achieve your goals a problem?" One of the most ignorant questions I have ever seen.
Deckbuilding is a complicated thing. It's fun, but very few people (in percentage) can build an effective deck out of the blue. I deckbuild when I want to deckbuild, not when I need a deck for ladder. Then, if the deck is working fine (positive win rate is what I consider 'fine') I'll use it on ladder, too, but that's secondary.
What you have to consider, too, is that in a certain place in time (season) and space (server, rank) there's a limited amount of effective solutions for ladder, and by effective I mean something that you can achieve a wr of around 60% with. This DOESN'T depend on netdecking. Netdecking is the way you can know what these effective solutions are (if you're not playing that much, otherwise you can just reconstruct other people lists on ladder with a tracker). Other than that, knowing what other people are playing is a way for deckbuilders to know what's working and what isn't not having to try everything in first person.
If we ignore for a moment the fluctuation in efficiency due what other decks are played, sharing lists helps finding out the meta, not creating it! And thus a good deckbuilder, when looking for the most efficient solution for ladder, with the right amount of time, would find the same lists that are meta in that moment rather than new ones. Ofc there are other 'fine' decks you can create and play, if it's more fun to you, but other people may have fun with a meta deck, too.
What makes wild more 'deckbuilding friendly' is the general lack of players. The amount of people looking for decks is too little compared to the amount of cards to be tested, so even if there's a meta it's not so bulletproof, because it's not completely find out and people isn't playing the most efficient solutions yet (and probably will never be if number of players doesn't grow). That's what I most enjoy about wild.
I don't think there's anything wrong with netdecking - in fact, you can make the case that the more strictly players are netdecking, the simpler it becomes to play against those decks. You'll know more confidently their exact decklist and likely cards in hand, which (hand reading/deck tracking) is a valuable skill to develop to become a solid player. Also, I think if you're *only* netdecking, you're limiting how good you could be, but the problem is, your un-tech'd netdeck is probably good enough to get you where you want to be, regardless of making tech choices, so that's probably why most players never really think about their deck's composition and how different choices affect the general synergy. If you want to watch a good series on that topic, watch Firebat's "Deck Doctor" series.
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
As long as a strategy FOR ANYTHING is successful, people will copy it.
Strategy for beating a boss in a video game? Copied.
A play in a football game? Copied.
A successful political strategy? Copied.
A deck in a collectible card game? Copied.
A way to make money? Copied.
It absolutely is. At a point where we should see more creativity than ever before, it's all Paladins and Warlocks playing the same shit.
Netdecking isn't the actual problem. People copy decks for different reasons:
a. time saver - i just want to play a good deck and dont feel like thinking or building a competitive deck
b. know thy enemy - i just want to know WHY this deck is the best, so I will play it, and then understand how to beat it
Regardless of the reasons, I think the reason why people do it and the negativity attached to it are fairly obvious to me:
1. You are playing a deck that you put zero work into and zero development. Yet you are climbing the ladder and winning games to no additional effort on your part. It 'feels' like cheating.
Now, I may or may not agree with the above statement, but I think that's where many people who hate netdecking fall into. It feels like you are copying someone else's homework and in school, thats a big no no and you can fail or get in trouble for doing that.
If you copied a novel or music, you could get fined or sued for copyright infringement. So I believe there is this thinking that netdecking is the same as these things we see as cheating.
Either way, I netdeck for knowing my enemy. Once I figure out the decisions that go into the deck, I can build my other decks to beat them better.
Any "championship"decking people out here ?Only me? Ok..
if you're not netdecking, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage since why would you play something that is categorically weaker than something else
Being a deck designer is not a prerequisite of the game. No one complains that the pro players go into tournaments with decks that come right off of ladder. Kripp's Challengestone was a great way to move away from that. But in the end, it is just a lame criticism for those who lose, or an ego boost for those who win.
As much as I hate it and rarely ever do it, it can’t ever be a problem because it will always exist and you can always counter popular decks. Balancing is the real problem but hopefully the upcoming changes can help the game out.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.