I'd like to see peoples suggestions regarding which of the 9 "Potentially un-fun cards" they would like to see balanced and in what way you'd like to see them balanced....please try to give serious suggestions, it's not about how to completely destroy the cards, just how you can tone them down enough for other classes and decks to become viable options for competitive players trying to rank up.
The 9 cards they mentioned were:
I feel like Team 5 has really hit the spot here with looking at potential balancing for these cards, at least for Standard, but I don't think they should nerf all of these cards, that would be too harsh towards Warlock. Remember it's not about completely destroying Warlock as a viable class, we just want to drastically tone down certain oppressive deck archetypes by targeting specific cards they run.
My suggestions regarding what cards they should nerf and how are as follows:
Remove taunt from Sunkeeper Tarim and bring it's health down to 6 from 7, this won't completely kill the card, just balance it a bit...would also make it impossible to discover from Stonehill Defender which is quite important, especially for arena.
Make Call to Arms cost 5 mana to avoid it being played in even Paladin, would also make it bad in Odd Paladin since you'd only get 1-drops and you're paying 5 mana for that.
Make Spiteful Summoner's battlecry: "Reveal a spell from your deck. If it costs 5 mana or more, summon a 5/5 elemental." Making it an elemental feels thematically fitting for some reason and summoning a 4/4 and a 5/5 for 6 mana makes it still worth running in big spell decks, you just wont be able to abuse it as disgustingly anymore by running only 10 cost spells.
Make Doomguard gain it's charge through it's battlecry to make it pointless to run in Cubelock, this change would still leave it a strong addition to Zoolock or other more aggressive Warlock decks that don't plan on cheating it out with Possessed Lackey or Skull of the Man'ari. Without Doomguard the Cubelock deck will take a huge blow for sure, the lists that don't run Doomguard are way more fair in my opinion. Yes they're very defensive and win the long game with Bloodreaver Gul'dan, but I think that's okay since you won't have the disgusting burst potential Doomguard give you when several copies get summoned from Bloodreaver Gul'dan and/or Carnivorous Cube.
Double the mana cost of Dark Pact making it cost 2 mana instead of 1. This would push the combo with Possessed Lackey one turn later which means a lot both for aggro decks and tempo decks trying to win before the Warlock get to play their Bloodreaver Gul'dan. It gives you a much better chance to prepare for Voidlord popping out from the Possessed Lackey and makes it harder for Warlock to heal as efficiently.
Reduce the damage on Bloodreaver Gul'dans hero power from 3 to 2 damage. This combined with the other two nerfs I've suggested for Warlock would seriously reduce the power level of Warlock and make the class way more balanced, but hopefully not completely remove it from the meta, just make it a lot less oppressive.
Make Crystal Core's text be: "Transform all minions in your deck and hand to 1 mana 5/5 Crystalline beasts." Of course they don't have to be named Crystalline beasts, I am bad at coming up with names, but they should be vanilla 5/5s, probably with the elemental tag. This would obviously make a huge difference and most likely kill the deck wich in this case is okay imo, it's a horrible deck with way too lopsided matchups which is extremely anti-fun. There are lots of bad build around legendaries in the game, I would not mind if The Caverns Below was one of them. Tempo Rogue would of course remain as strong as it currently is so Rogue would still very much be a viable class in the meta.
I truly feel these changes would be sufficient to shake up the meta without actually killing off any class and only really killing 1 card, but unfortunately I don't know how you can balance The Caverns Below without killing it, would have to make it a completely different card and I know Team 5 don't like doing that, they rather add new cards. I assume they've tested the quest at 4/4s instead of 5/5s and I suspect it doesn't make enough of a difference to be worth implementing.
Yes Control Warlock might still be viable, yes Paladin might still be viable, especially Odd Paladin which would almost be untouched (only Stonehill Defender got nerfed a little by not being able to discover Sunkeeper Tarim), but this is not about completely removing a class from the meta, just tone them down a little to make other classes and decks stand a chance. With Quest Rogue gone there would be less incentive to play aggressive decks which actually does make Paladin slightly worse, Control Warlock is a counter to Odd Paladin and I don't think people would completely stop playing that just because Dark Pact cost 1 more mana even though Control Warlock would lose a lot of good matchups if there would be less aggressive decks in the meta.
And I don't think I need to mention why it's good that we no longer face a 4/4 that summons a 12/12 on turn 6.
Reason I don't think we should nerf Possessed Lackey is simply because I don't think it's necessary if we remove the disgusting potential it has from pulling out Doomguard while also slowing down the Dark Pact combo by increasing Dark Pacts mana cost by 1. Dark Pact is a much more flexible card than Possessed Lackey so if I had to choose between which of those two cards I'd want to increase the mana cost by 1 on I'd choose Dark Pact as I think that would have a much greater effect on the balance of both Cubelock and Control Warlock. Combined with the slight nerf to Bloodreaver Gul'dans hero power I think these changes would bring the class down to a more balanced power level compared to all the other classes.
Kobold Librarian is an auto-include in pretty much any Warlock deck, but hey so is Fireball in Mage and that is a card that will never go away, the Kobold Librarian will eventually rotate out. I think it's impact is low enough that I don't see a reason to not leave it at it's current power level, it's okay to have some universally strong cards as long as they are not too oppressive.
Alright so that are my thoughts, I'm not saying this is the only way to achieve a more balanced game, but hopefully some people agree with me and of course as with everything in life there will be some that disagree. In any case please share your own thoughts and feel free to post your own suggestions, it's very interesting to read and you'll probably have some suggestions that I may not even have thought about, please share! :)
What is Hearthstone to you? A fun and semi-competitive game with wacky effects and crazy RNG outcomes or just a card game you wanna grind as many wins you can get as fast as possible in?
I honestly don't think any of these need changes, all seem balanced enough to me. With a decent deck and knowledge of the meta, all these can be played around.
What if Sunkeeper Tarim was 2/5 and set all of the minions stats to 2/2? It would still trade with 3 2/2 statted minions but against spells it's weaker and also it is not offensive like normal version because the burst from this one card will be 33% less. Is it too weak? (actually I love paladin as a class but card is a bit broken)
What if Sunkeeper Tarim was 2/5 and set all of the minions stats to 2/2? It would still trade with 3 2/2 statted minions but against spells it's weaker and also it is not offensive like normal version because the burst from this one card will be 33% less. Is it too weak? (actually I love paladin as a class but card is a bit broken)
I see why you think this would be a good change as it would make it more control viable due to putting the opponents minions in range of consecration while also reducing the burst potential it gives to the more aggressive decks, but I feel the change is a bit too drastic and would change the card completely which I don't believe Team 5 would be willing to do. They'd be much more likely to adjust the power level down a bit and introduce another card that might have a similar effect for a control Paladin deck in a future expansion.
I appreciate your suggestion tho, keep em coming! :)
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What is Hearthstone to you? A fun and semi-competitive game with wacky effects and crazy RNG outcomes or just a card game you wanna grind as many wins you can get as fast as possible in?
nerf possessed-lackey to 8 mana, get rid of taunt on tarim, nerf call to arms to 6 mana, remove spiteful from game.
uninstall the game right after also, your suggestions are just plain stupid.
On the topic, only 5 cards might see changes. CtA to 5 mana. Lackey to 6. Spiteful to 7 and Guldan summon one of each demon that died this game and something on Quest Rogue reward.
What’s people’s thoughts on Tarim only affecting opponents health and attack , putting them at 3/3. Allows it to be in a more control orientated deck ( none currently I know ) , and reduce effectiveness the card in aggro decks?
i agree with your warlock changes , seems to not kill the deck , but put it in line with the rest of the competition
for crystal core , I would like it to only affect minions in your deck , this slows down the initial affect , meaning they will have to draw the 5/5 minions.
I would love to see Gul'dan's Battlecry changing from "Summon all friendly Demons that died this game." to "Summon all DIFFERENT friendly Demons that died this game."
With this change current Cubelocks would only get at best 1 Doomguard, 1 Voidlord and Voidwalker which is way weaker than now.
It would make more space in Cubelock (People adding Despicable Dreadlords or other huge demons), end getting 3 Mal'ganises in wild or summoning 7 Voidwalkers against Cubelock with 3 Doomguards and Voidlords.
I feel like this + other nerfs (to Dark Pact or Doomguard) would make deck really balanced. I think Hero Power is ok, but I get why people want to change it.
Why would I post my thoughts here instead of the other 20 threads that ask me to post thoughts there? Lol.
Seriously though, I'm just expecting Blizzard to completely destroy a couple decks, as they've done in the past. Most notable I'm sure quest rogue will never see the light of day again, and I really hope cubelock is crushed somehow. Everything else is fun to play with/play around.
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Twitch name: Anatak15 NA Legend Season 48, 49, 52, 53, 54, 74
Caverns Below: Basically fine for me as it has very hard counters in all aggro decks. Still, could be something like: Give your Minions +2/+2 or something like that.
Sunkeeper Tarim - Actually ok with this. A CtA nerf would knock this down a peg anyway.
Call to Arms - 3 Mana - Recruit 3 1 mana minions from your deck. (Useable in Aggro/Odd Paladin, no Knife Juggler pain)
Spiteful Summoner - Reveal a spell from your deck. Summon a demon with Attack and Health equal to the cost of that spell.
Possessed Lackey - Fine if Dark Pact is nerfed. See below.
Bloodreaver Gul'dan - Nope, this is fine too. I don't see the problem with this card. Maybe, just maybe, make it target the enemy hero by default. Something along the lines of "Deal 3 damage to the enemy Hero. Lifesteal"
Dark Pact - Change to "Silence a friendly minion and destroy it. Restore 8 Health to your Hero." No more Mana cheats, no more guaranteed Rin. Want that? Use Sanguine Reveler instead, and take the 3/3 instead of the 8 Health.
Doomguard - Agreed. Make the Charge part of the battlecry.
Kobold Librarian - I don't see a suggestion here? It's fine as it is imo.
Crystal Core - This is a symptom of the meta, not a problem itself. Once aggro becomes more common, it will fade away. No change needed.
I don't think battlecry needs a nerf because I think Doomguard will get nerfed as well. Which is either has Rush and not Charge or gain Charge throughout battlecry.
About Call to Arms, it should be 3 mana and that's about it lol... on a serious note as well as being 3 mana it should also recruit just 2 minions that cost (2) or less. This way if an odd pala plays this it is nearly equal to a 3 mana minion from a stat standpoint. And if an aggro pala plays this (not even or odd) they will get 2 minions and as stats it' s equal to something between 2/2 - 4/6 which has some counters and some of the 4 drops could easily trade (at least i hope)
P.S: Well, f*ck... I totally forgot about The Coin; you can play this at turn 2
I think the text on Crystal Core should read: "give all minions in your hand, board, and deck +3/+3(best guess)". This buff would be able to be silenced and bouncing a minion back to your hand would remove the buff. This would also allow rogues to play higher statted minions in the deck without being punished for it.
Here are my suggested nerfs for the proposed cards
Dark Pact should silence the minion before killing it
Gul'dan should cost 9, and resurrect one random dead demon. The hero power is very good, but then there would be a loss of synergy with Voidlord, making the "South border Wall of Taunts" passable again by big minions.
Kobold Librarian could do 3 damage instead of 2. If the card was neutral, it would be an auto-include in 100% of existing decks
I like a proposal on Tarim, making it change only opponent minions
Improved Paladin Hero power should be about having a 1/2 silver Hand recruit, with all Silver Hands (for example from Muster for Battle). If you craft a deck of Baku Paladin + 29 low tier odd arena cards, you'll get an easy 12 wins. Improved paladin hero power is just too strong for the game value model to handle.
Call to Arms would be fine and played for 5 mana (bye bye even Paladi, you won't be regretted)
The Caverns Below should Make all minions in your deck 5/5 (not the one in your hand, not the one you generate, ...)
Spiteful Summoner should burn the spell it copies. It would therefore slash the late game of greedy Spiteful decks, while still being an interesting card.
I also needed 4 other cards that warrant a big, fat nerf
Amethyst spellstone should cost 5, and deal one less damage. I would still be a played removal with good heal value.
Naga Sea Witch should cost 8, like the 8/8 giants she discounts.
Aa a band aid solution, Dirty Rat should be added to the classic set. It's a fun card a sane way to interact against combo decks.
Sonya the Shadow Dancer should be 5/5 and cost 8. This card is degenerate when paired with charge, and should therefore be nerfed into oblivion.
If you increase the dark pact to two mana you will increase his power. Dark pact cost has to be to 1 mana. In this way it can be destroyed by the Geist. The power has to be reduced. No the cost.
"I don't like this card so it should be removed from the game" or "Killing a deck is fine as long as I haven't used all my dust to craft it" literally everyone
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This is a thread regarding Team 5's announced potential balance patch which you can read about here:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/news/5536-iksar-on-naga-sea-witch-weve-been-discussing-a
I'd like to see peoples suggestions regarding which of the 9 "Potentially un-fun cards" they would like to see balanced and in what way you'd like to see them balanced....please try to give serious suggestions, it's not about how to completely destroy the cards, just how you can tone them down enough for other classes and decks to become viable options for competitive players trying to rank up.
The 9 cards they mentioned were:
I feel like Team 5 has really hit the spot here with looking at potential balancing for these cards, at least for Standard, but I don't think they should nerf all of these cards, that would be too harsh towards Warlock.
Remember it's not about completely destroying Warlock as a viable class, we just want to drastically tone down certain oppressive deck archetypes by targeting specific cards they run.
My suggestions regarding what cards they should nerf and how are as follows:
Making it an elemental feels thematically fitting for some reason and summoning a 4/4 and a 5/5 for 6 mana makes it still worth running in big spell decks, you just wont be able to abuse it as disgustingly anymore by running only 10 cost spells.
Of course they don't have to be named Crystalline beasts, I am bad at coming up with names, but they should be vanilla 5/5s, probably with the elemental tag.
This would obviously make a huge difference and most likely kill the deck wich in this case is okay imo, it's a horrible deck with way too lopsided matchups which is extremely anti-fun. There are lots of bad build around legendaries in the game, I would not mind if The Caverns Below was one of them. Tempo Rogue would of course remain as strong as it currently is so Rogue would still very much be a viable class in the meta.
I truly feel these changes would be sufficient to shake up the meta without actually killing off any class and only really killing 1 card, but unfortunately I don't know how you can balance The Caverns Below without killing it, would have to make it a completely different card and I know Team 5 don't like doing that, they rather add new cards.
I assume they've tested the quest at 4/4s instead of 5/5s and I suspect it doesn't make enough of a difference to be worth implementing.
Yes Control Warlock might still be viable, yes Paladin might still be viable, especially Odd Paladin which would almost be untouched (only Stonehill Defender got nerfed a little by not being able to discover Sunkeeper Tarim), but this is not about completely removing a class from the meta, just tone them down a little to make other classes and decks stand a chance.
With Quest Rogue gone there would be less incentive to play aggressive decks which actually does make Paladin slightly worse, Control Warlock is a counter to Odd Paladin and I don't think people would completely stop playing that just because Dark Pact cost 1 more mana even though Control Warlock would lose a lot of good matchups if there would be less aggressive decks in the meta.
And I don't think I need to mention why it's good that we no longer face a 4/4 that summons a 12/12 on turn 6.
Reason I don't think we should nerf Possessed Lackey is simply because I don't think it's necessary if we remove the disgusting potential it has from pulling out Doomguard while also slowing down the Dark Pact combo by increasing Dark Pacts mana cost by 1.
Dark Pact is a much more flexible card than Possessed Lackey so if I had to choose between which of those two cards I'd want to increase the mana cost by 1 on I'd choose Dark Pact as I think that would have a much greater effect on the balance of both Cubelock and Control Warlock.
Combined with the slight nerf to Bloodreaver Gul'dans hero power I think these changes would bring the class down to a more balanced power level compared to all the other classes.
Kobold Librarian is an auto-include in pretty much any Warlock deck, but hey so is Fireball in Mage and that is a card that will never go away, the Kobold Librarian will eventually rotate out. I think it's impact is low enough that I don't see a reason to not leave it at it's current power level, it's okay to have some universally strong cards as long as they are not too oppressive.
Alright so that are my thoughts, I'm not saying this is the only way to achieve a more balanced game, but hopefully some people agree with me and of course as with everything in life there will be some that disagree.
In any case please share your own thoughts and feel free to post your own suggestions, it's very interesting to read and you'll probably have some suggestions that I may not even have thought about, please share! :)
What is Hearthstone to you?
A fun and semi-competitive game with wacky effects and crazy RNG outcomes or just a card game you wanna grind as many wins you can get as fast as possible in?
I honestly don't think any of these need changes, all seem balanced enough to me. With a decent deck and knowledge of the meta, all these can be played around.
so, I want to ask a question:
What if Sunkeeper Tarim was 2/5 and set all of the minions stats to 2/2? It would still trade with 3 2/2 statted minions but against spells it's weaker and also it is not offensive like normal version because the burst from this one card will be 33% less. Is it too weak? (actually I love paladin as a class but card is a bit broken)
They'd be much more likely to adjust the power level down a bit and introduce another card that might have a similar effect for a control Paladin deck in a future expansion.
What is Hearthstone to you?
A fun and semi-competitive game with wacky effects and crazy RNG outcomes or just a card game you wanna grind as many wins you can get as fast as possible in?
nerf possessed-lackey to 8 mana, get rid of taunt on tarim, nerf call to arms to 6 mana, remove spiteful from game.
What’s people’s thoughts on Tarim only affecting opponents health and attack , putting them at 3/3. Allows it to be in a more control orientated deck ( none currently I know ) , and reduce effectiveness the card in aggro decks?
i agree with your warlock changes , seems to not kill the deck , but put it in line with the rest of the competition
for crystal core , I would like it to only affect minions in your deck , this slows down the initial affect , meaning they will have to draw the 5/5 minions.
I would love to see Gul'dan's Battlecry changing from "Summon all friendly Demons that died this game." to "Summon all DIFFERENT friendly Demons that died this game."
With this change current Cubelocks would only get at best 1 Doomguard, 1 Voidlord and Voidwalker which is way weaker than now.
It would make more space in Cubelock (People adding Despicable Dreadlords or other huge demons), end getting 3 Mal'ganises in wild or summoning 7 Voidwalkers against Cubelock with 3 Doomguards and Voidlords.
I feel like this + other nerfs (to Dark Pact or Doomguard) would make deck really balanced. I think Hero Power is ok, but I get why people want to change it.
Ered'achor! Havik! Galar!
Why would I post my thoughts here instead of the other 20 threads that ask me to post thoughts there? Lol.
Seriously though, I'm just expecting Blizzard to completely destroy a couple decks, as they've done in the past. Most notable I'm sure quest rogue will never see the light of day again, and I really hope cubelock is crushed somehow. Everything else is fun to play with/play around.
Twitch name: Anatak15
NA Legend Season 48, 49, 52, 53, 54, 74
Tarim: Fine for me. It’s a strong card offensively and defensively. I‘d leave it as it is. Maybe delete it’s taunt.
CtA: Make it recruit 2 Minions instead of 3 OR 3 random Minions that cost 2 Mana.
Spiteful: Change it to „Reveal a card“ instead of a spell. OR: Reveal a spell from your opponents deck.
Guldan: Deal 1 / Heal 1. Rest may stay unchanged, if...
Doomguard: Make Charge a part of the Battlecry.
Dark pact: Destroy a friendly demon.
Caverns Below: Basically fine for me as it has very hard counters in all aggro decks. Still, could be something like: Give your Minions +2/+2 or something like that.
Personally, I'd like to see:
Sunkeeper Tarim - Actually ok with this. A CtA nerf would knock this down a peg anyway.
Call to Arms - 3 Mana - Recruit 3 1 mana minions from your deck. (Useable in Aggro/Odd Paladin, no Knife Juggler pain)
Spiteful Summoner - Reveal a spell from your deck. Summon a demon with Attack and Health equal to the cost of that spell.
Possessed Lackey - Fine if Dark Pact is nerfed. See below.
Bloodreaver Gul'dan - Nope, this is fine too. I don't see the problem with this card. Maybe, just maybe, make it target the enemy hero by default. Something along the lines of "Deal 3 damage to the enemy Hero. Lifesteal"
Dark Pact - Change to "Silence a friendly minion and destroy it. Restore 8 Health to your Hero." No more Mana cheats, no more guaranteed Rin. Want that? Use Sanguine Reveler instead, and take the 3/3 instead of the 8 Health.
Doomguard - Agreed. Make the Charge part of the battlecry.
Kobold Librarian - I don't see a suggestion here? It's fine as it is imo.
Crystal Core - This is a symptom of the meta, not a problem itself. Once aggro becomes more common, it will fade away. No change needed.
Check out my entrant for the WCDC 9.12: Bilgewater Highroller
What if Gul'dan summoned 3 demons that had died?
Bloodreaver Gul'dan's hero power should be one of the following:
- Deal 2 damage Lifesteal
- or the same but can't target heroes.
I don't think battlecry needs a nerf because I think Doomguard will get nerfed as well. Which is either has Rush and not Charge or gain Charge throughout battlecry.
About Call to Arms, it should be 3 mana and that's about it lol... on a serious note as well as being 3 mana it should also recruit just 2 minions that cost (2) or less. This way if an odd pala plays this it is nearly equal to a 3 mana minion from a stat standpoint. And if an aggro pala plays this (not even or odd) they will get 2 minions and as stats it' s equal to something between 2/2 - 4/6 which has some counters and some of the 4 drops could easily trade (at least i hope)
P.S: Well, f*ck... I totally forgot about The Coin; you can play this at turn 2
*facepalms himself to death*
Spiteful should cost 7, and Dark Pact should cost 2. Badaboom.
Call to Arms. Cost increased to 6 mana. Text reads: Recruit 4 minions that cost (2) or less.
Explanation. Change the card into a midgame card. Forces you to run more 2 drops and weaken your deck.
Dark Pact: Cost increased to 2 mana
Slow the Lackey turn down to force more defense needed.
Crystal Core: At the end of your turn, your minions become 5/5
Removes burst. Allows Silence.
Bloodreaver Gul'dan: Hero Power reduced to 2 damage.
Hero powers that deal more than 2 damage and have an effect should require a quest or drawback outside of mana cost.
More crying. I love it
I like your changes on Sunkeeper Tarim, Call to Arms, Spiteful Summoner, and Doomguard.
I think the 1 mana increase should be on Possessed Lackey instead of Dark Pact.
I think the changes to Doomguard and Possessed Lackey would be enough that Bloodreaver Gul'dan can be left unchanged.
I think the text on Crystal Core should read: "give all minions in your hand, board, and deck +3/+3(best guess)". This buff would be able to be silenced and bouncing a minion back to your hand would remove the buff. This would also allow rogues to play higher statted minions in the deck without being punished for it.
Here are my suggested nerfs for the proposed cards
I also needed 4 other cards that warrant a big, fat nerf
If you increase the dark pact to two mana you will increase his power. Dark pact cost has to be to 1 mana. In this way it can be destroyed by the Geist. The power has to be reduced. No the cost.
"I don't like this card so it should be removed from the game" or "Killing a deck is fine as long as I haven't used all my dust to craft it" literally everyone