As a free to play wild player, i hate nerfs that target specific decks because it is a massive dust loss for me.
Here are some examples:
Giants other than Mountain Giant rarely see play, i crafted 8 epics which is 3200 dust, and now all those cards will become useless and i wont even get a refund simply because it took them a year to nerf the interaction with Naga Sea Witch
There are other examples, a lot of people probably crafted Raza the Chained, Kazakus, Prophet Velen and Shadowreaper Anduin just so they could play Razakus Priest which is a huge dust investment, and they only got a refund for one legendary. Crafting Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound because of Barnes is another example. Also if you guys remember when pirate warrior first appeared Blizzard tried this by nerfing Small-Time Buccaneer and i recall DisguisedToast saying they should refund anyone who crafted Patches the Pirate since at the time people didn't know Patches the Pirate would be used in other decks and most people including Team 5 themselves thought this nerf would be enough to kill pirate warrior. It ended up not mattering because withing a few days people realized just how powerful Patches the Pirate is so they eventually nerfed both Fiery War Axe and Patches the Pirate but the fact that they tried to avoid refunding a legendary for such a long time worries me.
Why is everyone even crying so much about Naga Sea Witch anyway, it is neither the best nor the most popular deck in wild and there are counters to your 4+ card dump, Poison Seeds, Sunkeeper Tarim, Brawl, Lightbomb, turn 4-5 Voidlord, Shadowflame not to mention the fact that there are lots of aggro decks that will just kill you if you spend turn 5 playing 6 Giants. People just remember those few games where they lost to turn 5 Giants because they didn't draw their answers, but there are lots of things that give you the same bad feeling, turn 5 Skull of the Man'ari into turn 6 Carnivorous Cube + Dark Pact which heals for 8, deals 15 damage to your face and leaves behind 2 Doomguards, turn 3 coin Barnes, turn 4 Mal'Ganis into turn 5 Faceless Manipulator just to name some common examples.
While i understand the need for some cards to be nerfed, Hearthstone is an expensive game and not getting a refund for crafting a bunch of expensive cards which are only used in a specific deck that only exists because of one specific card is not easy on people who can't afford to invest money in Hearthstone.
I know i'm gonna get down voted into oblivion because i defended Naga Sea Witch but that is really not the point of my thread, and if it is indeed making so many people mad then it should be nerfed(although in my opinion it would be much better to just revert the interaction change and refund all giants instead).
I am just looking to hear what you guys think about Blizzard's dust refund policy and how you would change it, if at all.
If you actually play giant decks often, I sincerely hope you don't have enough dust to play wild ever again.
Anyway, I kind of agree that the dust policy can be BS in some cases, but that's just how it is. I don't really agree that HS is an expensive game at all, but I realize that's an unpopular opinion in itself.
I get your concern and thought about this before seeing your post.. I don't think there is a perfect solution really, but it would be way to complicated to try refund timebound crafting of cards that have synergy with merged cards
I think dust refund on the nerfed card (if you want to dust it) is acceptable, but all the other cards remain viable... The nerfs might be very minor, the only decks I see being slightly ruined are spiteful (hopefully) but its not like mountain giants and ultimate infestation and keleseth don't have tonnes of other value..
It's not like the supportive cards suddenly are not playable anymore. 'nuff said IMHO. The giants all have their own niches (as stated in the posts before).
It is one of the very reasons why Blizzard is slow to nerf cards. People invest time and money trying to obtain those decks, and nerfing can be tough for those who just starting playing cubelock. However, just because they nerf a card or two doesn't mean all the other cards will die, and it is impossible for Blizzard to predict what cards will stay relevant or not. Sorry to say buddy but when you invest you also gamble which doesn't always pay off.
And the giant deck is just stupid. Handlock used to play a t4 mountian giant and that guy could win you the game. But giant warlock can play 29/29 worth of stats on t4 (with the coin). Yes, there are answers but if you don't have them you are dead on t4. It's not interactive or fun.
- blizzard wants to nerf an OP card - you spent your dust on a deck that uses said card - probably bc it is OP and u stashed in some wins with it - it took blizzard X months to recognize that shit is OP - you added your impact to ranked and casual by playing that annoying OP deck - you managed to get a nice rank with all the rewards (how many times) and many, many times 10g - what else do you want? maybe blizz will give you a card "1 mana: win the game. this always starts in you opening hand" and you can be happy
They aren't doing anything to Baku, so you won't get a refund for it. They are changing the upgraded Pally hero power. And it will probably still be good.
Also... Naga can burn in hell. It went un-nerfed for far longer than it deserved. Consider yourself lucky that you got as much play out of it as you did.
Kazakus, Prophet Velen and Shadowreaper Anduin are still playable even after nerf to raza the chained. Quartermaster and Level Up! Can still be played in a dude paladin without Baku the Mooneater. And deck doesn't have to be best to get nerfed, it just has to be polarizing (quest rogue wasn't best deck in Un'Goro times, but its popularity pushed out control decks out of meta which is not good)
Nice bait and switch. Lure people in with a dust complaint, at the halfway point it just turns into a Naga Sea Witch defense thread. I can't speak for what it feels like to play against this giants deck because I don't play wild. I will say I expected wild to be busted though, hence the reason I have always avoided it. If the deck is countered like you say then I suspect it's just another Quest Rogue situation where a deck with a middling winrate just isn't fun to play against and therefore it needs nerfed.
Being able to counter and beat a deck isn't the be all end all of what makes a deck healthy in the meta game. If the meta requires you to run all the answers you listed or an aggro deck just to beat it, then it is warping the meta and no one appreciates having to auto include cards and pray they have them just because you don't feel like playing an actual game of hearthstone today.
I am a f2p player as well.. and it can be frustrating when a archetype is killed and cards become useless.. but I have accepted this as a part of the game. Typically speaking, the nerfs only hit the archetypes and cards that need it. I’ll gladly deal with the dust loss in exchange for a meta shift.. keeps things fresh
I'll apologize OP for the bunch of haters this thread has. Barely any answered the question and just hate on naga giant decks.
I think it's been blizzard's trend to nerf cards that are not typically seen as the problem... such as ancient of lore, innervate to 1 mana, etc. Instead of dealing with the newer stronger card, have tended to nerf the cards that support it... small time buccaneer compared to patches... even though patches was still overly strong and it took them a long time to change it. I don't think they can ever come up with a system to award extra dust for cards that were not changed but affected by the nerf.
And yes, this game is expensive. Is it more expensive than MTG? No.. but they are both expensive.
For two weeks after each standard rotation (like we had with The Witchwood just now where the 2016 cards rotated) every card that was rotated can be disenchanted for twice as much dust, maybe even full crafting cost. It would ease the transition into the new year for standard players and wild players could find the dust for those last few epic cards they were saving for.
- blizzard wants to nerf an OP card - you spent your dust on a deck that uses said card - probably bc it is OP and u stashed in some wins with it - it took blizzard X months to recognize that shit is OP - you added your impact to ranked and casual by playing that annoying OP deck - you managed to get a nice rank with all the rewards (how many times) and many, many times 10g - what else do you want? maybe blizz will give you a card "1 mana: win the game. this always starts in you opening hand" and you can be happy
He will not be happy as he will loose to other snowflakes with the same card 50% of the time
You're crafting cards, not decks. So if a card is only good in one particular deck, you're taking a risk in crafting it. It's one of the things to consider when deciding what to craft.
I view my card collection as resources that I can build decks from, not as a group of fixed decks. If you only play a small set of netdecks, then I guess you don't consider individual cards to be worth having. I can't imagine the game staying fun though if you play the same decks for weeks on end.
Would a refund for decks even be feasible? For cards it's very clear which cards are eligible for a refund: those cards that were changed. But let's say Bloodreaver Gul'dan gets nerfed, what should be refunded then? Void Lord? Lackey? Skull? Every single demon and card that interacts with demons? It's not a clear decision and whatever other cards Blizzard would pick would lead to a lot of drama.
From a discussion point of view, if you want to discuss refunds, it would be better to just stick to the arguments concerning refunds in your post. Trying to defend the Naga Giant decks will trigger people into responding to that defense, which distracts from the original discussion topic.
It is a problem, especially for F2P players. And it has a fairly simple solution, but one that I doubt Blizzard would ever do. Refund full dust value for the actual nerfed cards, plus an additional 1600 dust.
It may not quite make up for all the dust spent to craft a deck, but it's better than nothing, and may be enough to get a player started on making another deck.
The big problem is that when Blizzard nerfs cards, they tend to not balance them, but kill them (and the deck they were associated with) completely. And we all know the other problem ... when one deck is knocked off the top of the pile, another one just takes its place. For those with a fairly complete collection, there isn't a problem at all, as they will just craft the next top deck, but for a F2P player that spent all their resources on building a deck to be able to compete, having that deck destroyed can be game ending.
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As a free to play wild player, i hate nerfs that target specific decks because it is a massive dust loss for me.
Here are some examples:
Giants other than Mountain Giant rarely see play, i crafted 8 epics which is 3200 dust, and now all those cards will become useless and i wont even get a refund simply because it took them a year to nerf the interaction with Naga Sea Witch
Odd Paladin required me to craft Baku the Mooneater plus 4 epics, Level Up! and Quartermaster which is a 3200 dust investment and only half of it will be refunded when they nerf Baku the Mooneater
There are other examples, a lot of people probably crafted Raza the Chained, Kazakus, Prophet Velen and Shadowreaper Anduin just so they could play Razakus Priest which is a huge dust investment, and they only got a refund for one legendary. Crafting Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound because of Barnes is another example. Also if you guys remember when pirate warrior first appeared Blizzard tried this by nerfing Small-Time Buccaneer and i recall DisguisedToast saying they should refund anyone who crafted Patches the Pirate since at the time people didn't know Patches the Pirate would be used in other decks and most people including Team 5 themselves thought this nerf would be enough to kill pirate warrior. It ended up not mattering because withing a few days people realized just how powerful Patches the Pirate is so they eventually nerfed both Fiery War Axe and Patches the Pirate but the fact that they tried to avoid refunding a legendary for such a long time worries me.
Why is everyone even crying so much about Naga Sea Witch anyway, it is neither the best nor the most popular deck in wild and there are counters to your 4+ card dump, Poison Seeds, Sunkeeper Tarim, Brawl, Lightbomb, turn 4-5 Voidlord, Shadowflame not to mention the fact that there are lots of aggro decks that will just kill you if you spend turn 5 playing 6 Giants. People just remember those few games where they lost to turn 5 Giants because they didn't draw their answers, but there are lots of things that give you the same bad feeling, turn 5 Skull of the Man'ari into turn 6 Carnivorous Cube + Dark Pact which heals for 8, deals 15 damage to your face and leaves behind 2 Doomguards, turn 3 coin Barnes, turn 4 Mal'Ganis into turn 5 Faceless Manipulator just to name some common examples.
While i understand the need for some cards to be nerfed, Hearthstone is an expensive game and not getting a refund for crafting a bunch of expensive cards which are only used in a specific deck that only exists because of one specific card is not easy on people who can't afford to invest money in Hearthstone.
I know i'm gonna get down voted into oblivion because i defended Naga Sea Witch but that is really not the point of my thread, and if it is indeed making so many people mad then it should be nerfed(although in my opinion it would be much better to just revert the interaction change and refund all giants instead).
I am just looking to hear what you guys think about Blizzard's dust refund policy and how you would change it, if at all.
If you actually play giant decks often, I sincerely hope you don't have enough dust to play wild ever again.
Anyway, I kind of agree that the dust policy can be BS in some cases, but that's just how it is. I don't really agree that HS is an expensive game at all, but I realize that's an unpopular opinion in itself.
I think is ok as the other cards may still see play elsewhere in the future.
Well Sea Giant is used in Zoo decks.
Clockwork is used in Wild Mill.
Molten Giant was unnerfed so you can do stuff with that.
The other giants are good and have their own decks you can use, cheap decks no leas. Just look for some recipes.
I get your concern and thought about this before seeing your post.. I don't think there is a perfect solution really, but it would be way to complicated to try refund timebound crafting of cards that have synergy with merged cards
I think dust refund on the nerfed card (if you want to dust it) is acceptable, but all the other cards remain viable... The nerfs might be very minor, the only decks I see being slightly ruined are spiteful (hopefully) but its not like mountain giants and ultimate infestation and keleseth don't have tonnes of other value..
So I'd say sucking it up is acceptable
It's not like the supportive cards suddenly are not playable anymore. 'nuff said IMHO. The giants all have their own niches (as stated in the posts before).
It is one of the very reasons why Blizzard is slow to nerf cards. People invest time and money trying to obtain those decks, and nerfing can be tough for those who just starting playing cubelock. However, just because they nerf a card or two doesn't mean all the other cards will die, and it is impossible for Blizzard to predict what cards will stay relevant or not. Sorry to say buddy but when you invest you also gamble which doesn't always pay off.
And the giant deck is just stupid. Handlock used to play a t4 mountian giant and that guy could win you the game. But giant warlock can play 29/29 worth of stats on t4 (with the coin). Yes, there are answers but if you don't have them you are dead on t4. It's not interactive or fun.
No, the decks which consists of the nerfed cards are made up by players not Blizzard.
- blizzard wants to nerf an OP card
- you spent your dust on a deck that uses said card
- probably bc it is OP and u stashed in some wins with it
- it took blizzard X months to recognize that shit is OP
- you added your impact to ranked and casual by playing that annoying OP deck
- you managed to get a nice rank with all the rewards (how many times) and many, many times 10g
- what else do you want? maybe blizz will give you a card "1 mana: win the game. this always starts in you opening hand" and you can be happy
They aren't doing anything to Baku, so you won't get a refund for it. They are changing the upgraded Pally hero power. And it will probably still be good.
Also... Naga can burn in hell. It went un-nerfed for far longer than it deserved. Consider yourself lucky that you got as much play out of it as you did.
Kazakus, Prophet Velen and Shadowreaper Anduin are still playable even after nerf to raza the chained. Quartermaster and Level Up! Can still be played in a dude paladin without Baku the Mooneater. And deck doesn't have to be best to get nerfed, it just has to be polarizing (quest rogue wasn't best deck in Un'Goro times, but its popularity pushed out control decks out of meta which is not good)
I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist. ©Trimutius
Nice bait and switch. Lure people in with a dust complaint, at the halfway point it just turns into a Naga Sea Witch defense thread. I can't speak for what it feels like to play against this giants deck because I don't play wild. I will say I expected wild to be busted though, hence the reason I have always avoided it. If the deck is countered like you say then I suspect it's just another Quest Rogue situation where a deck with a middling winrate just isn't fun to play against and therefore it needs nerfed.
Being able to counter and beat a deck isn't the be all end all of what makes a deck healthy in the meta game. If the meta requires you to run all the answers you listed or an aggro deck just to beat it, then it is warping the meta and no one appreciates having to auto include cards and pray they have them just because you don't feel like playing an actual game of hearthstone today.
I am a f2p player as well.. and it can be frustrating when a archetype is killed and cards become useless.. but I have accepted this as a part of the game. Typically speaking, the nerfs only hit the archetypes and cards that need it. I’ll gladly deal with the dust loss in exchange for a meta shift.. keeps things fresh
Seems ok.
I'll apologize OP for the bunch of haters this thread has. Barely any answered the question and just hate on naga giant decks.
I think it's been blizzard's trend to nerf cards that are not typically seen as the problem... such as ancient of lore, innervate to 1 mana, etc. Instead of dealing with the newer stronger card, have tended to nerf the cards that support it... small time buccaneer compared to patches... even though patches was still overly strong and it took them a long time to change it. I don't think they can ever come up with a system to award extra dust for cards that were not changed but affected by the nerf.
And yes, this game is expensive. Is it more expensive than MTG? No.. but they are both expensive.
For two weeks after each standard rotation (like we had with The Witchwood just now where the 2016 cards rotated) every card that was rotated can be disenchanted for twice as much dust, maybe even full crafting cost. It would ease the transition into the new year for standard players and wild players could find the dust for those last few epic cards they were saving for.
This space is intentionally blank.
Odd Paladin and NagaLock player complains even though they're partially responsible for ruining the game
hmmm
Unpopular opinion: Rogue is OP
Easy to understand hard to solve. If you nerf a card, witch interactions should be refund?
I will crush you!
You're crafting cards, not decks. So if a card is only good in one particular deck, you're taking a risk in crafting it. It's one of the things to consider when deciding what to craft.
I view my card collection as resources that I can build decks from, not as a group of fixed decks. If you only play a small set of netdecks, then I guess you don't consider individual cards to be worth having. I can't imagine the game staying fun though if you play the same decks for weeks on end.
Would a refund for decks even be feasible? For cards it's very clear which cards are eligible for a refund: those cards that were changed. But let's say Bloodreaver Gul'dan gets nerfed, what should be refunded then? Void Lord? Lackey? Skull? Every single demon and card that interacts with demons? It's not a clear decision and whatever other cards Blizzard would pick would lead to a lot of drama.
From a discussion point of view, if you want to discuss refunds, it would be better to just stick to the arguments concerning refunds in your post. Trying to defend the Naga Giant decks will trigger people into responding to that defense, which distracts from the original discussion topic.
It is a problem, especially for F2P players. And it has a fairly simple solution, but one that I doubt Blizzard would ever do. Refund full dust value for the actual nerfed cards, plus an additional 1600 dust.
It may not quite make up for all the dust spent to craft a deck, but it's better than nothing, and may be enough to get a player started on making another deck.
The big problem is that when Blizzard nerfs cards, they tend to not balance them, but kill them (and the deck they were associated with) completely. And we all know the other problem ... when one deck is knocked off the top of the pile, another one just takes its place. For those with a fairly complete collection, there isn't a problem at all, as they will just craft the next top deck, but for a F2P player that spent all their resources on building a deck to be able to compete, having that deck destroyed can be game ending.
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland
I wanna write her, name in the sky
I wanna free fall, out into nothin'
Gonna leave this, world for awhile