It reminds me of the interaction between Tunnel Trogg and overload back in the heyday of aggro shaman. A mechanic that's supposed to be a downside suddenly becomes an upside. I can't even count the number of games I've won because lava burst and lightning bolt was 7 and 4 damage because I had a trogg on board.
Dark pact is supposed to have a downside by destroying an own minion, NOT an upside in exchange for such a powerful heal. It should read "Silence and then destroy a friendly minion, restore 8 health to your hero."
The issue dark pact currently causes is it makes it so you can't interact with lackeys and cubes since they're destroyed the same turn they're played. Without dark pact being able to trigger the deathrattles, the opponent has an opportunity to silence the minion, or just avoid destroying the minion for a while.
People will just use sanguine revelers or dark possession to kill of lackeys/cubes. They will still cheat out big demons. But then by destroying dark pact, warlock loses heal. It is hard to win against aggro decks even with dark pact let alone having only amethyst and siphon or drain soul besides gul'dan (given that they are too slow and ineffective).
Dark pact is a necessary card for Warlock. Killing the dark pact might remove warlock from the meta as aggro decks are even more aggressive (ubiquitous) than ever.
I think dark pact should be changed to "destory a friendly demon restore 8 health". This way lackey and cubed can't be dark pacted making cubes more interactive and slowing down some crazy combos.
This is just sacrificial pact. Voidcallers will appreciate it in wild.
Gul'Dan is absolutely ridiculous. It is insanely OP. You not only get all your demons back, but you get the ability to gain life each and every turn.
Gul'Dan should probably do nothing more than restore ONE demon (randomly chosen) and give you the hero power. It will still be played for the hero power alone. But getting 2 voidlords (or more) back etc? I mean FFS, the game is over by then 99% of the time.
I hate playing Warlocks. It has also ruined deck making for the other classes. Everyone feels pressured to include silence minions, and/or oozes (or Harrison).
Agreed. I wonder what they smoked the day Guldan was designed. I mean, ok, we had Nzoth with similar effect also for 10 mana. There was just a little drawback. You didnt get that FCKN ridiculous deal 3 heal 3 hero power. And adjusting every single deck with silences and weapon removals is annoying. For months, deckbuilding is only around "can i beat locks with it?". Huge part of the game is losing. For some reason, losing against paladins or some smorc decks is not that frustrating as against locks since it feels like cheating. Guldan, Spiteful ... will be fixed in near future, at least i hope so.
I think Dark Pact is the card that is most likely to be changed if they ever nerf the Deck but I don't think you can put all the blame on just one card... I think Cubelock right now is in the same spot of Midrange Shaman and Razakus were at their time,if you take the core cards of those Decks on their own they're good (some of those are really good but still manageable) but when you put them all in one Deck you get a meta warping abomination.... Yes,Dark Pact is the reason why you can't interact with Carnivorous Cube/Possessed Lackey but would Dark Pact be a problem if those cards didn't exist? I'm inclined to say it wouldn't.... I've seen someone mention also Lesser Amethyst Spellstone and the DK as problem cards but once again would those be a problem if Kobold Librarian/Hellfire/Taunt demons weren't a thing? I don't think so.... What makes the Deck so oppressive is the combination of insane AOE (I'm baffled no one mentioned Defile as one of the problematic cards,it might be a well designed card but that doesn't change the fact that is an utterly busted AOE for such low mana cost) ,value generators and burst damage on a stick.... Even though Dark Pact is the one most likely to be changed if I had to pick a card I'd nerf Doomguard instead.... Just make it so that it has Charge tied to its battlecry.... This change doesn't hurt Zoo that still has a finisher, but takes away the Deck burst damage (and also if you have less demons in your Deck your Lackeys might be dead draws more often than they are now) so that other slow Decks can stand a better chance against it....
And yet nerfing doomguard kills zoo and Disco. The goal isnt to nerf Warlock beyond play is it? Why not nerf the problem that is the cube.
First, I don't think it necessarily kills Zoo. Doomguard is great in zoo, but probably doesn't cease as a deck if there's a reasonable nerf to Doomguard. Personally, what I'd do is reduce it to a 5/5, and move the charge into the battlecry, so that a cheated-out Doomguard is just a 5/5, but played out of hand it gains charge. Or just Hall of Fame. I think Zoo survives, because the Warlock hero power offers more reload than most other decks.
I also don't mind if Zoo spends some time at the bottom of the pile. It was interesting in the Tunnel Trogg days when Shaman replaced Hunter as the face deck. Likewise Aggro Warrior. Now, Hunter is back. It's good for things to change like that.
As to Discard Warlock, I'd probably, at the same time as nerfing or HoF'ing Doomguard, add some sort of vanilla minion with the discard two cards battlecry... a 4-mana 7/7? Anyhow, it's a niche enough archetype that I'm not concerned with it. If a 4th tier deck going to 5th is the price for fixing an annoying card, I don't really care.
What it comes down to is that I fundamentally disagree with what the problem is. Personally, I think the real problem with Cubelock is burst. I think cube/control Warlock is a tolerable aspect in Hearthstone, so long as it can't muster a burst combo and kill someone from 25 HP. Even if that's a bit of an unlikely scenario, a 15 HP burst combo (where all of the pieces are really versatile) is more that I want that style of deck to have. There's active counterplay to big value plays, like Cube on pretty much anything but Doomguard. That's just how I see the problem.
Gul'Dan is absolutely ridiculous. It is insanely OP. You not only get all your demons back, but you get the ability to gain life each and every turn.
Gul'Dan should probably do nothing more than restore ONE demon (randomly chosen) and give you the hero power. It will still be played for the hero power alone. But getting 2 voidlords (or more) back etc? I mean FFS, the game is over by then 99% of the time.
I hate playing Warlocks. It has also ruined deck making for the other classes. Everyone feels pressured to include silence minions, and/or oozes (or Harrison).
I agree that the DK should be toned down, mostly the hero power from 3 damage down to 2 since in almost every single way the hero power is superior to both the druid and priest hero powers (which should not be the case). However, the battlecry is perfectly fine. You could get really greedy with N'Zoth in previous expansions and it was never nerfed. In most cases N'Zoth's battlecry is actually superior to Gul'Dan's battlecry. There is no reason to touch the battlecry. Plus, Brawl, Nether, Equality combos, Dragon's Fury, Light Bomb, Poison Seeds, etc exist for a reason.
Gul'Dan allowing the warlock to heal every turn is perfectly thematic to the class since it heals from damage done, but it also makes sense considering what a warlock will be playing like in the end game. Depending on the match-up a warlock will have sacrificed a lot of health due to drawing a lot of cards. It doesn't make sense for an improved warlock hero power to simply be enough better draw engine because you aren't going to want to keep drawing cards every single turn in the late late game, as that means you lose the fatigue game in slow control match-ups. Therefore, the Gul'Dan hero power needs to be something that isn't a self damaging effect, nor a draw engine. I feel the damage + heal is a good alternative to the drawbacks of the original hero power. Although, like I said up above, the 3 damage is over the top since it is the same thing as a druid hero power choose one effect, with the only difference being that warlocks can't hero power out of range of otks and combos that exceed 30 health.
Yes, maybe there's a bit too many threads about cubelock. Ever consider that there's also too stagnant of a meta, and the fact that the same two decks from the last standard year are STILL top dogs? People don't mind top dogs as much if they aren't top dogs all the time. If the thread(s) bother you that much you could...you know try not posting in them/reading them? I mean I'm sure when you clicked on the title you knew what was being discussed, so honestly the only thing really interesting here is this...
Do you come to these threads looking for attention, or do you just like to bitch in general? Or maybe it's a combination of the two...hmm...
We've all seen these threads a billion times. But why does no one ever bitch about Kobold Librarian? We all knew that card was busted the first time we saw it. Not only does it furiously speed up the early game draw, massively upping Warlock's consistency, but it contests almost all one drops and other two drops, buying the Warlock important time in the early game. How they gave that card to Warlock I'll never understand.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Legend - July '16 (Rank 56), June '17, Dec. '18, Apr. '19
Wild Legend - Mar. '18 (Rank 30), Apr. '18, Aug. '19
Twelve Arena Wins - Shaman, Warlock, Mage x2, Rogue, Priest (12-0), Druid, Hallow's End x2, Hunter, Taverns of Time x3 (Pa,D,WL), Paladin
We've all seen these threads a billion times. But why does no one ever bitch about Kobold Librarian? We all knew that card was busted the first time we saw it. Not only does it furiously speed up the early game draw, massively upping Warlock's consistency, but it contests almost all one drops and other two drops, buying the Warlock important time in the early game. How they gave that card to Warlock I'll never understand.
This card is very good but don't will be a problem if warlock don't have so many broken cards in other mana costs.
But be able to play broken card turn 1, broken hero power turn 2, broken mass removal turn 3, broken spellstone turn 4, broken cheat mana turn 5, put a broken 9 manas for free + cube + broken healing card turn 6 getting 18 mana value out of nothing it is just bullshit.
I really don't understand why all this bullshit don't was nerfed yet? WTF they waiting for?
Yes, maybe there's a bit too many threads about cubelock. Ever consider that there's also too stagnant of a meta, and the fact that the same two decks from the last standard year are STILL top dogs? People don't mind top dogs as much if they aren't top dogs all the time. If the thread(s) bother you that much you could...you know try not posting in them/reading them? I mean I'm sure when you clicked on the title you knew what was being discussed, so honestly the only thing really interesting here is this...
Do you come to these threads looking for attention, or do you just like to bitch in general? Or maybe it's a combination of the two...hmm...
I'm going to be that poster, but in the Hearthstone community there are are complaints every time a deck appears on the top for more than one meta at a time. The community is impatient and wants every meta to be a special snowflake variety pack, which is nothing more than impractically idealistic.
I'm almost completely convinced that most Hearthstone players have never played a card game outside of HS, otherwise they would realize that the times that HS does have the same deck from an older meta that allows it to be on top it is not as bad as other longer lasting card games have dealt with in their own game. I can't sympathize with Hearthstone players who complain about Cubelock existing for maybe 2-3 metas in a row when I know other games, such as Yu-Gi-Oh, where players dealt with much worse when having to deal with a variation of Chaos Control decks for well over a year. When compared to older games Hearthstone has comparatively nothing to complain about.
When you actually play another game and then see how impatient the HS community is sometimes it gets a little annoying. The lack of patience is honestly stifling.
It's not one card that is the problem, it's mostly lack of weakness and reliability.
Warlock got great tools to deal with tokens with defile, great tools to deal with big things with Spellstone, great ways to heal with Spellstone and DarkPact and the DK Hero power, which is amazing. They also got more draw, which is something they really didn't need and that increases the reliability of all the combos.
The whole "summon big demons free, copy them and summon them back" is pretty strong on it's own but the deck also got so many support tools to boot that it just becomes too good to pass. It's not even a matter of being oppressive or strong, it's just a matter of "Why play anything else when this does everything"?
They'd have to give warlock nothing but garbage cards or cheap demons so that this deck doesn't become even stronger. The deck is tight and it has answers or tech choices for everything already bar a couple of decks.
I really don't mind the whole summon big demons cheap/free and then revive them. I don't LIKE the whole 7 doomguards in your face with guldan, I do believe that the DK should revive only one of each demon or DoomGuard should have rush and not Charge if that's intended, but that's personal opinion on design choice.
What I do find wrong/odd is that he does all this while covering all the other bases. On top of doing all those things it also is reliable AND uninteractive. Getting big minion cheap is one thing but being able to KILL, copy them AND heal all on the same turn you got them for free is stupid. Even if you have Polymorph, Silence or Hex you can't do anything against it because your opponent has enough heal and clears to wait for the right moment to remove that option for you.
It's annoying and unfair because the initiative to counter it is stripped away from the enemy and a good CubeLock player will never get outplayed, just out-matched.
Silence effects should just remove the Demon tag. It would prevent DK Gul'Dan from raising them.
That would make it so that silence effects are even more cracked down on. They were already nerfed for being too good for being a 2/1 neutral silence for 2 mana. Somehow removing tribal tags on minions would most likely guarantee that T5 would feel that they would have to crack down on more silence cards sometime down the road, most likely sooner than later.
I think the only real problem with cube lock is how it stifles other value/control decks to various degrees. Any "fair" control deck can't compete with the amount of damage and threats that, specifically, cubes and guldans full of doomguards can do. I think the most reasonable nerf would be to just make the charge tied to the battle cry, so it only makes doomguards worse when cheated in, which removes a lot of the degenerate things that cube lock does. You could also stand to increase the cost of either the lacky or darkpact by 1 if you really wanted too, but I don't really think that is necessary. The deck really isn't that overpowered anymore, and silence can help you get in under the void lords, and before anyone says anything, no I don't play cube lock.
Cubelock is struggling against alot of decks now,, this is no problem
Because if a deck, for example, midrange shaman or druid or CW, was weak vs warlocks is impossible to play and is out of the meta, every single person trying to make any deck have to question yourself "What this deck can do vs warlocks?" The answer are be super agressive like baku decks, cheat more than them with Spiteful or have a very strong late game like taunt druid or Big Spell Mage, anything else is doomed, like, if not for this warlock abomination we can have 20 or 24 diferent very competitive decks but because warlock we have 10 or 12.
No.. Using the card *creatively* with deathrattles has, and will always be a perfectly fine interaction.
Having yet another interaction that abuses the charge mechanic is the oversight. And similar to the Molten, Patron, UtH, Quest Rogue, Pirate, and OKTO decks before it, it'll likely see a fix in the eventual balance patch.
It's a mystery as to why Blizzard would print a card which is so vastly superior to Moat Lurker, a card which was printed perfectly fine in its year.
Yes, maybe there's a bit too many threads about cubelock. Ever consider that there's also too stagnant of a meta, and the fact that the same two decks from the last standard year are STILL top dogs? People don't mind top dogs as much if they aren't top dogs all the time. If the thread(s) bother you that much you could...you know try not posting in them/reading them? I mean I'm sure when you clicked on the title you knew what was being discussed, so honestly the only thing really interesting here is this...
Do you come to these threads looking for attention, or do you just like to bitch in general? Or maybe it's a combination of the two...hmm...
I'm going to be that poster, but in the Hearthstone community there are are complaints every time a deck appears on the top for more than one meta at a time. The community is impatient and wants every meta to be a special snowflake variety pack, which is nothing more than impractically idealistic.
I'm almost completely convinced that most Hearthstone players have never played a card game outside of HS, otherwise they would realize that the times that HS does have the same deck from an older meta that allows it to be on top it is not as bad as other longer lasting card games have dealt with in their own game. I can't sympathize with Hearthstone players who complain about Cubelock existing for maybe 2-3 metas in a row when I know other games, such as Yu-Gi-Oh, where players dealt with much worse when having to deal with a variation of Chaos Control decks for well over a year. When compared to older games Hearthstone has comparatively nothing to complain about.
When you actually play another game and then see how impatient the HS community is sometimes it gets a little annoying. The lack of patience is honestly stifling.
So your retort is essentially the "Genetic Fallacy"? Because Yu-Gi-Oh or MTG players had to deal with longer metas, everyone should as well? Both of those games were still physical card games until recently. Hearthstone has the privilege of preventing stagnant metas, especially at the turn of the standard cycle. The other part of the problem is the un-interactiveness of some of the decks. I won't derail this thread to segue into that but suffice it to say that very prominent pro streamers have even gone on the record of saying that this meta has some of the most un-interactive decks currently dominating, which makes playing against those decks very unappealing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I think Dark Pact is the card that is most likely to be changed if they ever nerf the Deck but I don't think you can put all the blame on just one card... I think Cubelock right now is in the same spot of Midrange Shaman and Razakus were at their time,if you take the core cards of those Decks on their own they're good (some of those are really good but still manageable) but when you put them all in one Deck you get a meta warping abomination.... Yes,Dark Pact is the reason why you can't interact with Carnivorous Cube/Possessed Lackey but would Dark Pact be a problem if those cards didn't exist? I'm inclined to say it wouldn't.... I've seen someone mention also Lesser Amethyst Spellstone and the DK as problem cards but once again would those be a problem if Kobold Librarian/Hellfire/Taunt demons weren't a thing? I don't think so.... What makes the Deck so oppressive is the combination of insane AOE (I'm baffled no one mentioned Defile as one of the problematic cards,it might be a well designed card but that doesn't change the fact that is an utterly busted AOE for such low mana cost) ,value generators and burst damage on a stick.... Even though Dark Pact is the one most likely to be changed if I had to pick a card I'd nerf Doomguard instead.... Just make it so that it has Charge tied to its battlecry.... This change doesn't hurt Zoo that still has a finisher, but takes away the Deck burst damage (and also if you have less demons in your Deck your Lackeys might be dead draws more often than they are now) so that other slow Decks can stand a better chance against it....
"この 先は 暗い 夜道 だけが も 知らない それでも信じて 進むんだ 星が その道 を 少し でも 照らしてくをるのを"
We've all seen these threads a billion times. But why does no one ever bitch about Kobold Librarian? We all knew that card was busted the first time we saw it. Not only does it furiously speed up the early game draw, massively upping Warlock's consistency, but it contests almost all one drops and other two drops, buying the Warlock important time in the early game. How they gave that card to Warlock I'll never understand.
Standard Legend - July '16 (Rank 56), June '17, Dec. '18, Apr. '19
Wild Legend - Mar. '18 (Rank 30), Apr. '18, Aug. '19
Twelve Arena Wins - Shaman, Warlock, Mage x2, Rogue, Priest (12-0), Druid, Hallow's End x2, Hunter, Taverns of Time x3 (Pa,D,WL), Paladin
Dark Pact should cost 2 with no changes otherwise.
It's not one card that is the problem, it's mostly lack of weakness and reliability.
Warlock got great tools to deal with tokens with defile, great tools to deal with big things with Spellstone, great ways to heal with Spellstone and DarkPact and the DK Hero power, which is amazing. They also got more draw, which is something they really didn't need and that increases the reliability of all the combos.
The whole "summon big demons free, copy them and summon them back" is pretty strong on it's own but the deck also got so many support tools to boot that it just becomes too good to pass. It's not even a matter of being oppressive or strong, it's just a matter of "Why play anything else when this does everything"?
They'd have to give warlock nothing but garbage cards or cheap demons so that this deck doesn't become even stronger. The deck is tight and it has answers or tech choices for everything already bar a couple of decks.
I really don't mind the whole summon big demons cheap/free and then revive them. I don't LIKE the whole 7 doomguards in your face with guldan, I do believe that the DK should revive only one of each demon or DoomGuard should have rush and not Charge if that's intended, but that's personal opinion on design choice.
What I do find wrong/odd is that he does all this while covering all the other bases. On top of doing all those things it also is reliable AND uninteractive. Getting big minion cheap is one thing but being able to KILL, copy them AND heal all on the same turn you got them for free is stupid. Even if you have Polymorph, Silence or Hex you can't do anything against it because your opponent has enough heal and clears to wait for the right moment to remove that option for you.
It's annoying and unfair because the initiative to counter it is stripped away from the enemy and a good CubeLock player will never get outplayed, just out-matched.
Silence effects should just remove the Demon tag. It would prevent DK Gul'Dan from raising them.
Cubelock is struggling against alot of decks now,, this is no problem
yep
I think the only real problem with cube lock is how it stifles other value/control decks to various degrees. Any "fair" control deck can't compete with the amount of damage and threats that, specifically, cubes and guldans full of doomguards can do. I think the most reasonable nerf would be to just make the charge tied to the battle cry, so it only makes doomguards worse when cheated in, which removes a lot of the degenerate things that cube lock does. You could also stand to increase the cost of either the lacky or darkpact by 1 if you really wanted too, but I don't really think that is necessary. The deck really isn't that overpowered anymore, and silence can help you get in under the void lords, and before anyone says anything, no I don't play cube lock.
No.. Using the card *creatively* with deathrattles has, and will always be a perfectly fine interaction.
Having yet another interaction that abuses the charge mechanic is the oversight. And similar to the Molten, Patron, UtH, Quest Rogue, Pirate, and OKTO decks before it, it'll likely see a fix in the eventual balance patch.
It's a mystery as to why Blizzard would print a card which is so vastly superior to Moat Lurker, a card which was printed perfectly fine in its year.