It reminds me of the interaction between Tunnel Trogg and overload back in the heyday of aggro shaman. A mechanic that's supposed to be a downside suddenly becomes an upside. I can't even count the number of games I've won because lava burst and lightning bolt was 7 and 4 damage because I had a trogg on board.
Dark pact is supposed to have a downside by destroying an own minion, NOT an upside in exchange for such a powerful heal. It should read "Silence and then destroy a friendly minion, restore 8 health to your hero."
The issue dark pact currently causes is it makes it so you can't interact with lackeys and cubes since they're destroyed the same turn they're played. Without dark pact being able to trigger the deathrattles, the opponent has an opportunity to silence the minion, or just avoid destroying the minion for a while.
I completely agree. Dark pact is the real problem, allowing you to get powerful Deathrattles without the chance to silence, and it gives them 8 health back almost 1/3 their starting health
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“If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.” ― George Bernard Shaw
EU Legend: S52 (ZooHeal Lock); S76 (Highlander Hunter);
The real problem here is the new expansion don't bring really new archetypes And the new ones use just a couple of the new cards Like Odd Paladin using basic set cards WTF :(
I feel the heal should be reduced, perhaps from 8 to 6, but having it silence and destroy your minion is absurd. How would that be an even remotely good card at that point? You put yourself beyond by doing a negative trade just for a 8 point heal.
The point of nerfs is for balance. Balance is not totally destroying a card, but decreasing its effectiveness so it is in line with powerful cards just below them.
I'm so glad most players will never have the opportunity to decide how to nerf cards because 95% of them don't seek to tone down strong cards, but try to simply destroy them.
I'm so glad most players will never have the opportunity to decide how to nerf cards because 95% of them don't seek to tone down strong cards, but try to simply destroy them.
Well, to be honest, that's how Blizz/Team 5 are doing the nerfs as well - hit them with the N-Hammer deep in to "Pls dust me ASAP" collections. Like when they did the nerf on Tuskarr Totemic back in the Aggro shaman "heydays", just as an example.
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“If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.” ― George Bernard Shaw
EU Legend: S52 (ZooHeal Lock); S76 (Highlander Hunter);
Warlock still has access to a 1 mana destroy minion, I think the "heal 8" is the broken part, should be heal 2 max
A 2 heal is too harsh imo. There are plenty of times you have to play self-damaging minions without ever getting spellstones in your hand. Dark Pact, while overhealing at 8 health, can help to alleviate those games where you have to damage yourself for 2, 4, or 6+ health without being able to make some of that lost health back from powered up spellstones.
Warlock still has access to a 1 mana destroy minion, I think the "heal 8" is the broken part, should be heal 2 max
A 2 heal is too harsh imo. There are plenty of times you have to play self-damaging minions without ever getting spellstones in your hand. Dark Pact, while overhealing at 8 health, can help to alleviate those games where you have to damage yourself for 2, 4, or 6+ health without being able to make some of that lost health back from powered up spellstones.
I respectfully disagree. Every single other class in the game would run librarian no questions asked, or would rather have the warlock hero power. To me that's just the price you pay for easy card draw, with dark pact there is literally no downside at all to playing these cards.
remember this card used to be busted in warlock : Antique Healbot Now it's a 1 mana zero drawback card as you actively seek to destroy half your deck and draw 4 more cards that your opponent in the first 3 turns lol.
I can't agree, Dark Pact is a pretty fair card in any kind of Control Warlock or a Reno Warlock, any other slower deck.
As much fun as I've had arsing about with Carnivorous Cube, I do believe the problem lies here, as can be seen with Taunt Druid which is almost as oppresive as Cubelock, albeit quite a bit slower.
They now have to be careful with any future cards that can be potentially broken with Cube. It definitely falls into the "limiting design space" meme that people like to throw around.
I don't think the problem is really a single card, but rather the whole package of broken things the deck has. You try rushing them down, they have a million healing cards, if you can even get them to the point where your burn can get the job done before they get a voidlord out. You try to outvalue them, they have near infinite demons, along with rin which also makes it very hard to fatigue them. OTK decks also have a tough time killing them compared to other control decks we've had before, because they are quite capable of killing you from a high life total with dooguard+cube. So basically, the deck has the best healing and taunt in the game, the most value, and pretty good burst damage. The combination of those 3 things makes it broken.
Even then, maybe pact is the card that needs to be nerfed at first. They could make it just heal you for 5 for starters, which would at least make the deck weaker against aggro, that could be enough to make it less oppressive on ladder. If it's not enough, try to add more nerfs here and there to other cards until you hit the sweet spot where it's still viable, but not too strong.
I for one really hope that when cubelock(inevitably) gets nerfed, they don't end up just flat out deleting the deck from the game, because it's actually one of the most fun tier one decks we've had in years.
The real problem here is the new expansion don't bring really new archetypes And the new ones use just a couple of the new cards Like Odd Paladin using basic set cards WTF :(
Quest Rogue came back, Spiteful Druid is solid, Hand Druid was a thing for a minute at least (It may still be) Even Handlock is often competitive around rank 10 for me, and Tess/Burgle Rogue isn't terrible.
Honestly if one expansion could generate an entire archetype on it's own, I'd be surprised, there must be supporting cards in other sets. Even exodia mage was just an extension of freeze mage.
There are so few cards in the rotation right now. Tell me what you think in December after the other two expansions have been released and we'll talk about this expansion's cards not making anything new.
I don't think the problem is really a single card, but rather the whole package of broken things the deck has. You try rushing them down, they have a million healing cards, if you can even get them to the point where your burn can get the job done before they get a voidlord out. You try to outvalue them, they have near infinite demons, along with rin which also makes it very hard to fatigue them. OTK decks also have a tough time killing them compared to other control decks we've had before, because they are quite capable of killing you from a high life total with dooguard+cube. So basically, the deck has the best healing and taunt in the game, the most value, and pretty good burst damage. The combination of those 3 things makes it broken.
Even then, maybe pact is the card that needs to be nerfed at first. They could make it just heal you for 5 for starters, which would at least make the deck weaker against aggro, that could be enough to make it less oppressive on ladder. If it's not enough, try to add more nerfs here and there to other cards until you hit the sweet spot where it's still viable, but not too strong.
I for one really hope that when cubelock(inevitably) gets nerfed, they don't end up just flat out deleting the deck from the game, because it's actually one of the most fun tier one decks we've had in years.
I think this gets it. Individually, most of the cards are tolerable. Together, I think they become a problem.
Personally, I think the first card to get touched--and I really wish they had already--is Doomguard. It's one thing to have a hard-to-kill control deck. It's another thing when they have a lot of burst potential which still also leaves behind giant bodies. Additionally, while the other cards will rotate in time, Doomguard is classic which means we're stuck with it. Like when Warlock had Voidcaller and in pretty much every single version of Zoo in HS history. Ice Block is gone from mages. Doomguard should have gone with it.
Honestly I couldnt disagree more. Should we take Naturalize and put it in to Hall of fame because it takes player interaction with Hadronox away? The issue isnt the ability to trigger death rattles, its overpowered Deathrattles in the first place.(No hadronox is not an op deathrattle for its cost). However a voidlord for 6, or 2 voidlords for 6 after already cheating one out is insane, regardless of whether or not it heals you. If you nerf dark packt, we will put in Ratchatcher or the 1 mana 3/3 (when you kill a friendly). Nerf the cube, nerf the lackey. those are the things that make cubelock broken.
IMO mana-cheating will always be more problematic for the game, as well as the Charge mechanic due to HS offering no active counterplay during your opponents turn. Taunt minions and Secrets are passive styles of play. As other posters above have said, the problem is more a case of Warlock having too many good things at the same time in the current meta. I think Possessed Lackey at 6 mana or Dark Pact at 2 mana (and possibly making it give RNG heal as well - like Shaman's Crackle - healing only for 3-6HP).
The real issue here is dark pact.
It reminds me of the interaction between Tunnel Trogg and overload back in the heyday of aggro shaman. A mechanic that's supposed to be a downside suddenly becomes an upside. I can't even count the number of games I've won because lava burst and lightning bolt was 7 and 4 damage because I had a trogg on board.
Dark pact is supposed to have a downside by destroying an own minion, NOT an upside in exchange for such a powerful heal. It should read "Silence and then destroy a friendly minion, restore 8 health to your hero."
The issue dark pact currently causes is it makes it so you can't interact with lackeys and cubes since they're destroyed the same turn they're played. Without dark pact being able to trigger the deathrattles, the opponent has an opportunity to silence the minion, or just avoid destroying the minion for a while.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
I completely agree. Dark pact is the real problem, allowing you to get powerful Deathrattles without the chance to silence, and it gives them 8 health back almost 1/3 their starting health
Check out my Earth, Wind, and Fire - Elemental Shaman deck!
Lava Burst + Lightning Bolt = 8 dmg, apparantely you didn't experience it enough :) (/joke, just couldn't resist)
They can also try to make Dark pact 2 mana instead. It would delay "the combo".
“If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.” ― George Bernard Shaw
EU Legend: S52 (ZooHeal Lock); S76 (Highlander Hunter);
The real problem here is the new expansion don't bring really new archetypes
And the new ones use just a couple of the new cards
Like Odd Paladin using basic set cards WTF :(
Standard > Wild
I feel the heal should be reduced, perhaps from 8 to 6, but having it silence and destroy your minion is absurd. How would that be an even remotely good card at that point? You put yourself beyond by doing a negative trade just for a 8 point heal.
The point of nerfs is for balance. Balance is not totally destroying a card, but decreasing its effectiveness so it is in line with powerful cards just below them.
I'm so glad most players will never have the opportunity to decide how to nerf cards because 95% of them don't seek to tone down strong cards, but try to simply destroy them.
It's both: mana cheat will always be broken if undercosted and you can control the outcome to a degree.
See Mad Scientist , Witching Hour , Call to Arms , etc.
Warlock still has access to a 1 mana destroy minion, I think the "heal 8" is the broken part, should be heal 2 max
“If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.” ― George Bernard Shaw
EU Legend: S52 (ZooHeal Lock); S76 (Highlander Hunter);
Noooo! Not this again!! Please, for the love of C'Thun, no more Dark Pact/Cubelock threads!!
The problem is that Warlock has too much insane Board Clears to survive to the late game... Spellstone and the DK are also really broken.
I can't agree, Dark Pact is a pretty fair card in any kind of Control Warlock or a Reno Warlock, any other slower deck.
As much fun as I've had arsing about with Carnivorous Cube, I do believe the problem lies here, as can be seen with Taunt Druid which is almost as oppresive as Cubelock, albeit quite a bit slower.
They now have to be careful with any future cards that can be potentially broken with Cube. It definitely falls into the "limiting design space" meme that people like to throw around.
I don't think the problem is really a single card, but rather the whole package of broken things the deck has. You try rushing them down, they have a million healing cards, if you can even get them to the point where your burn can get the job done before they get a voidlord out. You try to outvalue them, they have near infinite demons, along with rin which also makes it very hard to fatigue them. OTK decks also have a tough time killing them compared to other control decks we've had before, because they are quite capable of killing you from a high life total with dooguard+cube. So basically, the deck has the best healing and taunt in the game, the most value, and pretty good burst damage. The combination of those 3 things makes it broken.
Even then, maybe pact is the card that needs to be nerfed at first. They could make it just heal you for 5 for starters, which would at least make the deck weaker against aggro, that could be enough to make it less oppressive on ladder. If it's not enough, try to add more nerfs here and there to other cards until you hit the sweet spot where it's still viable, but not too strong.
I for one really hope that when cubelock(inevitably) gets nerfed, they don't end up just flat out deleting the deck from the game, because it's actually one of the most fun tier one decks we've had in years.
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Honestly I couldnt disagree more. Should we take Naturalize and put it in to Hall of fame because it takes player interaction with Hadronox away? The issue isnt the ability to trigger death rattles, its overpowered Deathrattles in the first place.(No hadronox is not an op deathrattle for its cost). However a voidlord for 6, or 2 voidlords for 6 after already cheating one out is insane, regardless of whether or not it heals you. If you nerf dark packt, we will put in Ratchatcher or the 1 mana 3/3 (when you kill a friendly). Nerf the cube, nerf the lackey. those are the things that make cubelock broken.
And yet nerfing doomguard kills zoo and Disco. The goal isnt to nerf Warlock beyond play is it? Why not nerf the problem that is the cube.
IMO mana-cheating will always be more problematic for the game, as well as the Charge mechanic due to HS offering no active counterplay during your opponents turn. Taunt minions and Secrets are passive styles of play. As other posters above have said, the problem is more a case of Warlock having too many good things at the same time in the current meta. I think Possessed Lackey at 6 mana or Dark Pact at 2 mana (and possibly making it give RNG heal as well - like Shaman's Crackle - healing only for 3-6HP).
The sad thing is that people are dumb enough to think that all this is a mistake.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.