I'd set Possessed Lackey mana-cost to 6. Voidlord hp should be like 7-8, no more. Or they shoud summon two Voidwalker instead of three. Call to Arms should cost 5 mana or summon 2 minions. And Level Up! should give dudes 2/2 or 3/3 without taunt. Spiteful Summoner should cost 7 mana (yes, I play this deck but I see its kinda imbalanced). Carnivorous Cube should cost 6 or even 7 mana with maybe stat raised to 4/7. Doomguard should be rush and discard one card.
My candidates are Naga Sea Witch revert, one between Dark Pact, Bloodreaver Gul'dan and Skull of the Man'ari, Carnivorous Cube and Caverns Below.
But honestly, considering previous interations, I don't think much will change except for say Divine Favor or Dark Pact. When the problem was Ultimate Infestation, they nerfed Innervate. When the problem was Patches with the pirate package, they nerfed Fiery War Axe. Not to mention they waited until the end of the rotation to nerf Patches and Raza. So I actually don't except much will change. But anyway, for the sake of discussion:
Gul'dan DK is a Baku Hunter hero power with lifesteal attached to it. Jaina at least needs a board to gain life, and a board specifically made of the Elemental tribe.
I think the Battlecry is fine since Voidwalkers and the demons from Rin's Seals can pollute the pool as well. But deal 3 heal 3 is far too powerful attached with the Battlecry. 2 would be perfectly fine and most likely how they would nerf it.
Skull should damage the Warlock equal to the health of the summoned demon. Want a Voidlord on turn 5? Take 9 damage to pay for it. Want to bypass Doomguard's drawback? Take 7. That would also fit their lore of using their health for power.
Carnivorous Cube could be changed to 6 mana.
Dark Pact to maybe heal for 5 if they don't change Skull.
I think Possessed Lackey is fine, because to avoid the silence, they need to drop him and sac him on turn 6. You can't answer that, but you can answer the demon summoned. It's much better than the Skull, in which the demon comes, gets Cubed then saced and goes into the Gul'dan pool without any chance of answer. Skull is far more of a problem than Lackey.
Spiteful consuming the spell used could be a possibility or increasing her mana cost to 7 or even 8.
I don't know about Call to Arms. Putting three 2 drops on turn 4, usually Loot Hoarders, Jugglers and Dire Wolves can't in any way be compared by the swing provided by Spiteful Summoner on 6 dropping a 10 mana minion on 6, specially if it's Tyrantus. Anything summoned by Call to Arms can be instantly cleared by Defile, Hellfire, Duskbreaker, Holy Nova, Swipe, Lightning Storm, Consecration, Blood Razor, Warpath, a low roll Dragon's Fury.., heck I've seen Explosive Trap do it and Tar Creepers hold those 3 minions off. Not to mention other minions already on board with initiative.
The other argument is that CtA helps "thin you deck". But Paladins don't have late game value generation. They don't have inevitability and can't compete with other classes on either that and value. So I don't think CtA will be touched.
Tarim could be a contender, but I don't think he will either. Buffing his own minions is one of Paladin's identities. Another is the class lack of hard removal to deal with big threats. Paladins don't have Nethers, Meteors, etc. Eq+Consec requires two specific cards (while other classes do it with one) and if you have threats, also make it easier for opponents to deal with it. Tarim provides a way to interact with big threats outside of direct removal. Also, if the opponent controls the board well and develop even a weak one but with more numbers, Sunkeeper becomes a liability. It's totally possible to make him awkward or play around him.
Paladin's rise was 1) the Murloc package (which is far, far more disgusting than any other variant) and 2) the ability to constantly fill boards with Silver Hand recruits. Stand Against Darkness (rotated), Lost in the Jungle, Drygulch Jailors, 2x Vinecleavers that could potentially summon 16 more Recruits, Unidentified Maul either summoning more Recruits or giving them Divine Shield or +1 Attack and so on.
I won and lost more games due to Level Up! or Lightfused Stegadon adapting one of those endless waves of recruits that managed to stick once than because of Tarim and Call to Arms. And honestly, the Murloc package is still more disgusting.
Divine Favor isn't a reliable card. It's only good against Control and some Midrange. It's mostly a dead card on Aggro and Tempo matches. Battle Rage can buy just as many cards in the right situations for 1 less mana, and in others be just as useless. I don't think they'll touch it, but if they do touch Paladin, it's probably gonna be DF.
Cubelock is definitely the "gatekeeper" when it comes to create a deck. Every deck needs to answer "can it deal with Cubelock?". Far more decks are made unviable because of that (and Quest Rogue) than because of Paladin.
Games against Paladin, Even or Odd, are manageable and winnable by a plethora of different decks and classes. Warlock is already favoured and other classes can win against it too, but most of those are auto-loses against Warlock and if Control, also to Quest Rogue.
And this is important when it comes to balance and nerfs: Paladin doesn't shut entire classes or achetypes out. Cubelock and Quest Rogue do, however. And Quest Rogue is super uninteractive. They do nothing but their single player thing and is boring whether you win or lose against it.
Some will point winrates, but without context statistics aren't as useful. Paladin has the highest winrate, but doesn't shut classes or archetypes out.
Cubelock doesn't have the highest win rate but nobody doubts that is the deck to beat and tech around. Cubelock winrate isn't higher also because of the meta being extremely aggressive to it (double weapon destruction, double silence, etc).
So I think Warlock will get some hits, Paladin not except maybe Divine Favor and maybe Quest Rogue will be looked at again.
I've had some thoughts on spiteful that should keep the spiteful viable but also force the spiteful player to think it through before playing. I honestly don't care since I'm not high enough in the ranks to see spiteful that often, but I think this change could make some BANANAS games involving spiteful players.
Spiteful Summoner: reveal a spell in each deck, Summon a minion equal to HALF the total mana. I guess you'd have to round up.
I like this because there's still an opportunity to summon a high-mana minion for the spiteful player, but the summoning power is throttled by the capability of the opponents deck. The spiteful player is still getting value out of their play, but its not terribly out of reach for the opponent to respond to it. A spiteful player can still get a board advantage, but they run the risk of "playing down to the competition", to borrow a sports term.
I like this idea , maybe a slight change would be more Blizzard "reveal a random spell from either deck, summon a minion with the same cost."
or "choose a spell you have cast, summon a minion with the same cost"
I'd rather see some buffs on unpopular classes than some nerfs on popular ones.
Spiteful get a 4-4 and a 12-12 and turn 5/6. Quest Rogues get a deck full of 1 mana 5-5 on turn 5. Hits you with 10 1mana 5-5 boards each turn. Druids spawn countless full boards of Taunts with Hadronox Cube. Paladins and Hunters kill you within 5 turns. Mages ignore anything that happens on the board and spam the most powerful spells they can discover to your face.
All meta decks have some very powerful and annoying tools. But most people are not being fair because they complain only about the decks that hard counter the one they play the most.
Blizzard doesn't buff any cards. That's their policy
Most of the posts so far are pretty much : "make Cubelock unplayable".
Super productive.
That's not accurate at all, basically every post mentions paladin changescand/ or Spiteful Summoner nerfs too. Perhaps it would be productive to explain why you dislike the warlock nerfs people are mentioning (many posts are only prediticons after all) and suggest nerfs you think would be better.
I think it's fair to say the deck needs some changes, it remained dominant through a rotation and will stay that way for the next year unless either it's power level is reduced or something even more powerful gets added in an xpac and forces it out.
They mention Paladin yes. But the nerfs specific to Cubelock just make it unplayable, most of the time.
Guldan DK needs it at most, being a ridiculously powerfull card. You recast all the demons that you rly didnt paid the mana for and have an infinite deal 3 heal 3 hero power. What did they smoked that day? I mean, seriously, one day, you wil laugh at it like we do now looking at some old nerfed cards, being amazed, how would that even happened.
Spitefull to 7.
Call to arms needs a rework, but simply having it mana cost changed to 5 is not that great. Cant tell.
Dark pact would sacrifice a demon only.
Still, pain in the eye is Guldan DK and Spitefull. The most degenerate things that they created in a while.
First of all. Isnt Bloodreaver Gul'dan only 10 mana hero??? Then he needs to be the strongest one...
Second. Isnt the Gul'dan the strongest character of all 9 in HS??? Then he needs to have strongest DK....
Sorry but he cant be nerfed
Edit: jaina have better lifesteal and actually more lifsteal over time with DK then warlock
WTF is that argument that GUldan is strongest :D Ilidan is strong as fck in lore, why you do not play it? :D And Jaina deals one dmg, with no lifesteal to just in certain situation creates minion with lifesteal that can attack next turn so you can deal with it. Guldan is simply deal 3 heal 3 and just by the way he summoned all that fckn criploid shit that you can basically cheat out without paying for it. Nerf will come ofc. People are bored of warlocks. But i think Guldan should be part of it, because if not, its just a ticking bomb.
I hope to see spiteful summoner nerfed to at least eat the spell.
In general though my prediction is whatever nerf they do end up doing (if any), most people are going to complain about it and say they didn't do enough or did too much, I doubt anyone will actually be satisfied by what they do.
Most of the posts so far are pretty much : "make Cubelock unplayable".
Super productive.
That's not accurate at all, basically every post mentions paladin changescand/ or Spiteful Summoner nerfs too. Perhaps it would be productive to explain why you dislike the warlock nerfs people are mentioning (many posts are only prediticons after all) and suggest nerfs you think would be better.
I think it's fair to say the deck needs some changes, it remained dominant through a rotation and will stay that way for the next year unless either it's power level is reduced or something even more powerful gets added in an xpac and forces it out.
They mention Paladin yes. But the nerfs specific to Cubelock just make it unplayable, most of the time.
You basically just made the exact same comment disregarding my reply entirely. After complaining everyone else was being unproductive (for a totally flawed reason) you have made the exact same point twice that adds no discussion value at all.
I ask again - why do you think the changes people have proposed make warlock unplayable (6mana lackey, doomguard having rush or Battlecry: gain charge, or changing DK hero power to 2 damage being the most common comments)? What do you think would be fair and would change the deck's suffocating impact on the meta?
There is a saying in my country (maybe some other country has it too) - wish concert. It's when someone is greedy and wish for too much or too many times. Thats exactly what you guys are mostly doing in this thread.
In topic I won't point any card, but overall mechanic of cheating value (like tuskar totemic (which got nerf), spiteful, lackey). Thats the problem and thats should be changed undirectly (by adding counter cards) or directly (by nerfing).
We all know a set of nerfs is coming during mid-term, it's always been that way. So what about guessing them?
Ofc, we can discuss the guesses, but i will take care to report anything that is not kept quiet and constructive. We can argue without flaming.
Each answer is meant to be divided in 2 parts:
1) what cards do you think will be hit? Please be honest, don't tap into hate only
2) how do you think those cards will be hit?
-----
So for me:
#1 Possessed Lackey: mana cost increased to (6) (it is not just a mana cheat, but also a selective draw cheat. Imo, it would be OP even at (6))
#2 Spiteful Summoner: mana cost to (8). (value would still be there)
#3 Call to Arms: recruit 2 (2) minions. (The card is too dominant and staple, while increasing its mana cost to odd value would probably kill Even Paladin, which is not the point)
#4 Divine Favor: mana cost to (5). (Aggro decks should not be able to have an efficient draw system).
#5 Naga Sea Witch: mana cost increased to (8) (the deck would still be playable, but more vulnerable to burn, as any other combo deck).
-----
All these nerfs should still keep the affected decks as powerful, but more vulnerable to other strategies, namely Midrange variations, without the latter being warped around specific but boring mana cheating strategies.
What do you bet?
Please, keep it easy. I repeat: THIS IS NO SALTY THREAD.
It is meant for discussion about possible nerfs, and above all it is meant to be CONSTRUCTIVE.
After the nerfs kick in, we'll see who was the wisest of us at guessing. :)
Thanks.
I agree with all this. Only change I would also make to Spiteful Summoner is to lower the chances of getting Tyrantus from Spiteful. I thinm that plus a mana increase could be good.
What about buff tho? Ik it's kinda off topic but I mean...
We all know a set of nerfs is coming during mid-term, it's always been that way. So what about guessing them?
Ofc, we can discuss the guesses, but i will take care to report anything that is not kept quiet and constructive. We can argue without flaming.
Each answer is meant to be divided in 2 parts:
1) what cards do you think will be hit? Please be honest, don't tap into hate only
2) how do you think those cards will be hit?
-----
So for me:
#1 Possessed Lackey: mana cost increased to (6) (it is not just a mana cheat, but also a selective draw cheat. Imo, it would be OP even at (6))
#2 Spiteful Summoner: mana cost to (8). (value would still be there)
#3 Call to Arms: recruit 2 (2) minions. (The card is too dominant and staple, while increasing its mana cost to odd value would probably kill Even Paladin, which is not the point)
#4 Divine Favor: mana cost to (5). (Aggro decks should not be able to have an efficient draw system).
#5 Naga Sea Witch: mana cost increased to (8) (the deck would still be playable, but more vulnerable to burn, as any other combo deck).
-----
All these nerfs should still keep the affected decks as powerful, but more vulnerable to other strategies, namely Midrange variations, without the latter being warped around specific but boring mana cheating strategies.
What do you bet?
Please, keep it easy. I repeat: THIS IS NO SALTY THREAD.
It is meant for discussion about possible nerfs, and above all it is meant to be CONSTRUCTIVE.
After the nerfs kick in, we'll see who was the wisest of us at guessing. :)
Thanks.
Your nerf would be a dream. I really hope to see them. In any case I would hope in a harder nerf for Possessed Lackey. At the end with it you are summoning the doomguard without discard anything, I would be still good at 7 mana.
My ideas are similar to some already stated. Note: I don't hate Paladin. I love Paladin atm. However, I understand it won't be long until I'm sick of playing the class and against it.
1) Call to Arms: Recruit 2 minion that cost 2 or less from your deck.
2) Divine Favor: Mana cost increased to 5 mana
3) Sunkeeper Tarim: Stats changed to 3/6
4) Spiteful Summoner: Mana cost increased to 8 mana. Stats changed to 4/6.
5) Psychic Scream: Mana cost increased to 8
6) Rogue Quest should just be rotated early. Blizzard needs to break one of their rules here. It's simply too polarizing if it's in any way viable.
7) Gluttonus Cube: Deathrattle summon one copy of the destroyed minion.
8) Bloodreaver Gul'dan: Battlecry summon only 1 copy of each demon type summoned this game.
Did you read the rest of what I said? I said that cube on its own doesn’t need a nerf because it can be countered by silence effects, but dark pact is the problem because Cubelocks only play it when they can kill it the same turn with dark pact, essentially negating the silence downside.
i really like the design of cube- risking destroying your creature now to get two copies later- but dark pact breaks the card.
Esit: sorry I don’t know how to edit this to include a quote, but it was replying to the person that just took the first two lines of what I wrote, saying “cube can be countered by silence effects” and their argument was that it’s played exclusively with dark pact
Ah, you're right! Sorry!
I got a little carried away by the "easily countered by silence", so that I didn't realize that we basically said the same about Dark Pact!
My apologies! (I guess I just read too many posts at once...)
I think cubelock needs a nerf since it prevent control decks from existing.
I play Hadronox and destroy every Cubelock I encounter.
Congratulations! You are playing the Druid version of the deck that is contributing to meta balance issues.
The meta of aggro vs mana-cheat. I miss midrange decks. I am ok with aggro decks having a fast start, control decks having powerful plays in the late game.
This high-roll trend of Hearthstone since Karazhan is a problem.
Bring back the skill requirement, the decision making, the adaptation to the game play, give classes more than 1 viable option.
Blizzards trend of building up classes from being weak to powerful is good, but they need to look at the long term effects. Paladin and Warlock were very weak around the time of Ungoro and now we are stuck with the same decks controlling the meta for almost a year.
Not very good design. Hearthstone survives this because of the lack of competition. Maybe MTG: Arena or theBrode's new Indie company mixes it up.
"Congratulations! You are playing the Druid version of the deck that is contributing to meta balance issues."
I've heard people complaining about all tier 1 decks being broken. Every. Single. One. (Cubelock is not Tier 1 currently BTW, you can look it up on hsreplay)
Everyone enjoys to play 1 or 2 decks, and they will complain about the decks that counter them. Every time.
It's just impossible to play a competitive viable deck without being called out for using a "brainless deck" as you guys love to call them.
So you know.. Whatever.
"I miss midrange decks"
Yep, me too. But since they're not viable right now, I'm not gonna play them just to make other salty players happy.
In the end, every single deck has ways to be countered, nothing to whine about.
Spiteful summoner - A mana cost increase most likely.
Dark pact - I wouldn't know how to nerf this one, making it demon only would be ok. I only think this will be the hit card because control warlock's power has always been directly tied to wether he has access to burst healing or not. Remove burst healing and control warlock becomes really underwhelming.
Divine favor - Mana cost increase. It's just nuts for a single classic card make an entire archetype viable (if not top tier) at basically every single phase of the game.
Most of the posts so far are pretty much : "make Cubelock unplayable".
Super productive.
That's not accurate at all, basically every post mentions paladin changescand/ or Spiteful Summoner nerfs too. Perhaps it would be productive to explain why you dislike the warlock nerfs people are mentioning (many posts are only prediticons after all) and suggest nerfs you think would be better.
I think it's fair to say the deck needs some changes, it remained dominant through a rotation and will stay that way for the next year unless either it's power level is reduced or something even more powerful gets added in an xpac and forces it out.
They mention Paladin yes. But the nerfs specific to Cubelock just make it unplayable, most of the time.
You basically just made the exact same comment disregarding my reply entirely. After complaining everyone else was being unproductive (for a totally flawed reason) you have made the exact same point twice that adds no discussion value at all.
I ask again - why do you think the changes people have proposed make warlock unplayable (6mana lackey, doomguard having rush or Battlecry: gain charge, or changing DK hero power to 2 damage being the most common comments)? What do you think would be fair and would change the deck's suffocating impact on the meta?
6 mana lackey
It's often hard enough to survive until turn 5 if you don't get board clears in early game. Waiting one more turn would make it impossible to survive against aggro.
Doomgard having Rush or Battlecry : gain charge
Cubelock is about getting that combo for burst damage. That's literally the point of the deck. Get some walls up to protect your face, and strike with Doomguards when you have an opening. If Doomguards can't charge, they'll get taken care of before being able to do anything. It's the only offensive weapon Cubelock has. Oh yeah they have 2 Mountain Giants. What happens to them when they get played? They get shut down instantly most of the time.
Chaing DK hero power to 2 damage
I'd take that. It really won't change much.
I would admit that they're not completely stupid ideas, but they will impact Cubelock well to hard nevertheless. Especially that sometimes, people want 3 or 2 of them applied, and not only one of them.
Now since those are the reasonable ones, let me show you the moronic ones that inspired my comment :
Dark Pact : "Destroy a demon, restore 8 Health to your hero"
The whole point of the deck is to get demons out. Why the fuck would I destroy them once they're finally out? This would prevent to kill Lackey, but also Cube, or Voodoo Doll.
I'd like to precise that the user who posted this is perfectly fine with Spiteful Summoner, 6 mana 4-4 + 12-12. That's kind of funny.
Possessed Lackey : "recruit a demon, which costs 4 or less."
The only demons played are 5 mana and 9 mana. So that's pretty much "delete Posessed Lackey from Cubelock". So Cubelock potentially will have to survive 9 turns without any taunts. Genius.
Voidlord : Maybe just 2 Voidwalker spawns or reduce the health of Voidlord to 6/7
It's a 9 cost mana card ffs, it is MEANT to be powerful. And people tend to forget that sometimes, you actually HAVE to play it instead on summoning it with Lackey or Skull.
This same guy also wants to nerf Naturalize. NATURALIZE?? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??
Possessed Lackey: Summon a random demon from your deck that costs (8) or less
Just like above. Make Cubelock potentially unable to protect its face for 9 turns.
There you go. That's all the propositions before I posted my comment.
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I'd set Possessed Lackey mana-cost to 6. Voidlord hp should be like 7-8, no more. Or they shoud summon two Voidwalker instead of three. Call to Arms should cost 5 mana or summon 2 minions. And Level Up! should give dudes 2/2 or 3/3 without taunt. Spiteful Summoner should cost 7 mana (yes, I play this deck but I see its kinda imbalanced). Carnivorous Cube should cost 6 or even 7 mana with maybe stat raised to 4/7. Doomguard should be rush and discard one card.
No brain - no pain.
g
Check out my Earth, Wind, and Fire - Elemental Shaman deck!
My candidates are Naga Sea Witch revert, one between Dark Pact, Bloodreaver Gul'dan and Skull of the Man'ari, Carnivorous Cube and Caverns Below.
But honestly, considering previous interations, I don't think much will change except for say Divine Favor or Dark Pact. When the problem was Ultimate Infestation, they nerfed Innervate. When the problem was Patches with the pirate package, they nerfed Fiery War Axe. Not to mention they waited until the end of the rotation to nerf Patches and Raza. So I actually don't except much will change. But anyway, for the sake of discussion:
I hope to see spiteful summoner nerfed to at least eat the spell.
In general though my prediction is whatever nerf they do end up doing (if any), most people are going to complain about it and say they didn't do enough or did too much, I doubt anyone will actually be satisfied by what they do.
If I were to guess, some of the more popular suggestions would be spot on.
For the other ones, I think there are more creative solutions that won't outright kill the decks.
Reduces the effectiveness of Warlock heal, since adding so much at the same time in the class resulted in a large power spike.
Keeps the spirit of the card, but without the ability to faceroll. Still would be playable.
Again, keeps the spirit of Control and Cubelock, but negating the ability to pull Voidlord or Mal'Ganis.
Power level goes down a small amount. Still gives Pally the possible value, but prevents board spam.
Keeps it out of Baku Pally and also makes the power level more reasonable.
Again these are merely my ideas that would hopefully fix the issues without outright killing the decks.
There is a saying in my country (maybe some other country has it too) - wish concert. It's when someone is greedy and wish for too much or too many times. Thats exactly what you guys are mostly doing in this thread.
In topic I won't point any card, but overall mechanic of cheating value (like tuskar totemic (which got nerf), spiteful, lackey). Thats the problem and thats should be changed undirectly (by adding counter cards) or directly (by nerfing).
My ideas are similar to some already stated. Note: I don't hate Paladin. I love Paladin atm. However, I understand it won't be long until I'm sick of playing the class and against it.
1) Call to Arms: Recruit 2 minion that cost 2 or less from your deck.
2) Divine Favor: Mana cost increased to 5 mana
3) Sunkeeper Tarim: Stats changed to 3/6
4) Spiteful Summoner: Mana cost increased to 8 mana. Stats changed to 4/6.
5) Psychic Scream: Mana cost increased to 8
6) Rogue Quest should just be rotated early. Blizzard needs to break one of their rules here. It's simply too polarizing if it's in any way viable.
7) Gluttonus Cube: Deathrattle summon one copy of the destroyed minion.
8) Bloodreaver Gul'dan: Battlecry summon only 1 copy of each demon type summoned this game.
Galavant Animation
Spiteful summoner - A mana cost increase most likely.
Dark pact - I wouldn't know how to nerf this one, making it demon only would be ok. I only think this will be the hit card because control warlock's power has always been directly tied to wether he has access to burst healing or not. Remove burst healing and control warlock becomes really underwhelming.
Divine favor - Mana cost increase. It's just nuts for a single classic card make an entire archetype viable (if not top tier) at basically every single phase of the game.