Spiteful summoner is a high-roll card, they'll always be around. The problem isn't so much that you get a ton of value for 6 mana, most decks can deal with a large minion on that turn. The real issue is that you can keep the spell that you used to generate that minion. Eventually, the opponent just runs out of answers.
For example, spiteful priest can effectively play 4 free from ambers in a 30 card deck, two of which are essentially cast for 2 mana with an obligatory 4 cost 4/4 body attached to the casting cost.
Should it be nerfed? Probably not, unless they change the text to be like grand archivist where you'll actually have a spell removed from your deck.
Also, in my opinion, the idea that spiteful decks are "sub-optimal" because you can only include high-cost spells is simply bad logic. There really isn't a punishment for only including large spells. Since these cards vary in their usefulness according to archetype, "traditionally good" tools like swipe or shadow word death are out of place in low-trade priority/overwhelm your opponent style decks.
I think the best evidence to this argument is comparing the disproportionately high win rates of spiteful decks with some of the other archetypes for spiteful classes.
I.e. Spiteful Priest vs. all other priest decks (trash).
i.e. Spiteful Druid vs. all other druid decks (trash with the exception of taunt druid, spiteful is still better).
I fully agree that Spiteful Summoner is terrible for Hearthstone. It strongly supports curvestone, is blatantly overpowered, requires the minimalist amount of skill, and just plain isn't fun to play with or against. It's a neutral Mysterious Challenger and blizz should feel bad for missing it during the last round of nerfs. Nerf Lackey, nerf Summoner, nerf CTA, Nerf level up, watch the meta prosper.
aaand what would you achive with that cost increase? 7 mana 4/4+12/12 in exchange 6 mana 4/4+12/12? Do you think people would stop using it?
I see two easy nerf options: Change text to: 1.Reaveal a spell from your deck with cost 7 or lower... or 2.print more minions with cost 8-10 with low stats.
Right now Spiteful Summoner it´s OP but it will nerf herself with the release of future expantions, the card pool will increse with probably crappy stats and strong battlecry 10 mana minions...
There are literally people playing Spiteful decks with Keleseth in them. They're deliberately limiting themselves to only large spells and no 2 drops. If people can combine 2 apparently restrictive criteria and still post win rates of 55%+, how can you argue that the cards aren't busted? It's so FUCKING OBVIOUS.
It's basically admitting you don't actually want to have any input into whether you win or not, you're happy to just roll some dice and let the game resolve itself. How boring are these people that they are happy to play like that?
So boring that they're making up about a third of casual decks rn. Seriously who brings autopilot decks to casual? Like I don't mind people bringing meta decks to try and learn but if you think Spiteful decks need some learning...just uninstall because you're not going to get better at this game.
Spiteful is balanced from win-rate perspective because of the deck restrictions, which is which is why it hasn't been nerfed. It's just not fun. A card that read: "Start of Game: 50% chance you win, otherwise you lose," that would technically be perfectly balanced. It's just not fun. And its especially not fun for someone riding a streak on the ladder who queues up against you and loses.
I didn't play a lot of spiteful pre-WW, but have been playing a lot of spiteful priest and druid recently and found that games are usually decided on T5/6 depending on if I drew Spiteful. It's even more pronounced in mirror matches, where the game becomes: First to draw spiteful wins.
Just not really fun. Unfun cards should be nerfed even if not OP (see Crystal Core)
The real problem with spiteful is not even spiteful, it’s the fact that it’s stuck with so many huge minions too like the beast rusher and scalebane and the 4/11 taunt and in priest that crazy 7 mana dragon. It’s way to many huge threats and there aren’t enough removals for such huge boards. Not to mention of course mind control and ui are also insane swingy turns for a deck that’s already too strong. It’s literally way too broken. The combination of all this makes the game unfun. I literally cry and lose against every spiteful deck.
I don't see a problem with spiteful. Just made a spiteful druid deck that is supposed to have high winrate and promptly went down 1-8 from rank 1. Only won against an instaconcede low lege player :))
"I don't see a problem with a deck because I'm bad at playing it."
They should have included a "bad" 10 mana minion this expansion so there was risk when someone used Spiteful. Instead, the only "bad" one that exists is sea giant because it only produces an 8/8 on the board.
Druid can also ramp up to turn 6 very easily. Something should be done.
i dont know how anyone can complain about anything other than cubelock. that deck does more broken stuff than anything. you can get 2 tyrantus in a row on turn 5 and 6, or 6 and 7 if not on the coin, and still lose against cubelock.
Spiteful druid, cubelock and odd/even paladin are some of the most common and powerful decks on the ladder and are building a rock-paper-scissors triangle. You cannot nerf one without the other two. Nerfing spiteful would certainly flood the ladder with even more cubelocks, and nobody wants that.
There are literally people playing Spiteful decks with Keleseth in them. They're deliberately limiting themselves to only large spells and no 2 drops. If people can combine 2 apparently restrictive criteria and still post win rates of 55%+, how can you argue that the cards aren't busted? It's so FUCKING OBVIOUS.
It's basically admitting you don't actually want to have any input into whether you win or not, you're happy to just roll some dice and let the game resolve itself. How boring are these people that they are happy to play like that?
So boring that they're making up about a third of casual decks rn. Seriously who brings autopilot decks to casual? Like I don't mind people bringing meta decks to try and learn but if you think Spiteful decks need some learning...just uninstall because you're not going to get better at this game.
This is what bugs me the most. I don't consider myself a good or competitive player, I hardly play any ranked, so I don't want to express my feelings about game balance ...but... Why the actual fuck would you ever bring aggro or spiteful decks to casual mode? I understand, you want to be competitive in the game, you want to win and reach higher ranks, so you play the meta decks...But what in the seven hells makes you play a Spiteful / Aggro deck in CASUAL MODE?!?! Can you please leave elemental-hagatha shamans and quest hunters alone with your bullshit? Or you actually have to learn your curve / face deck? Or you want to TEST the deck you just copied from the internet?! The only thing I like about this, is when I win... I just fucked your noskill netdeck with my home-made F2P shit (OFC via RNG and sweet draws) ... Enjoy my sweet, sweet BM...
Ah here we go, spiteful is ruining the game.......dude paladin is ruining the game.......cubelock is ruining the game.......You do have to realize that we just had a rotation, so yes, like with most rotations, there will be the top decks from last season because there really isn't anything else. As usual, Blizzard adds a bunch of new mechanics to the game, but doesn't do much for them.
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You do not truly know someone, until you fight them.....
I don't see a problem with spiteful. Just made a spiteful druid deck that is supposed to have high winrate and promptly went down 1-8 from rank 1. Only won against an instaconcede low lege player :))
"I don't see a problem with a deck because I'm bad at playing it."
Typical hearthpwn meta analysis.
Typical all too literal and serious analysis of random forum chatter :). Move along bois, no scientific meta number crunching going on in general discussion! Serious threads invite serious answers etc.
I do agree and because most of the crappy 10 drops rotated out this month it has made spiteful summoner even stronger now because you're guaranteed to either get an 8/8 or a 12/12 now. lol
This is the only reason the turn 6 or 5 on the coin Spiteful is such a game breaking card. If the pool was more diluted the variance in how good your free drop is would be much more reasonable. Honestly i don't see much issue with the meta besides this card and cheating out Voidlords on 5 or 6. All in all it's the cheating the curve mechanic that has caused the biggest issues in HS ATM.
Paladin may seem like it has a superb win rate but really the meta is in such a flux that any stable deck would be doing well against all the experimentation going on right now. Lets give it a few more weeks and see how Paladin fares once the meta settles down. I have a feeling it's not as strong as players think.
And how do you suggest nerfing paladin besides completely destroying the entire class?
Baku: If your deck contains only odd-cost cards and you aren't Paladin?
Genn: If your deck contains only even-cost cards and you aren't Paladin?
Call to Arms: 5-mana (still fucking playable)?
Knife Juggler: Whenever you summon a minion, deal 1 damage to a random target (if you aren't Paladin)?
Level Up: Give your Silver Hand Recruits a high five because taunt is cheat?
Silver Sword: When your hero attacks, give your minions +1/+1 if you have no minions?
Or maybe.....JUST MAYBE.....we're only 1 week into the expansion and questions come before answers so lets give it some time to figure out new decks and find some answers to beat Paladins?
Aggro is stupidly easy to build. Control takes a lot of work. Let's stop complaining about aggro and get to work on building a good non cubelock and non taunt druid control deck.
Or....whatever....business as usual, go back to being lazy and calling for nerfs because rank 15 is hard.
Brainless aggro netdecker SPOTTED.
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Actually they have 1/6 chance of getting Tyrantus, so even Hex and Poly are useless. Such cancer.
Spiteful summoner is a high-roll card, they'll always be around. The problem isn't so much that you get a ton of value for 6 mana, most decks can deal with a large minion on that turn. The real issue is that you can keep the spell that you used to generate that minion. Eventually, the opponent just runs out of answers.
For example, spiteful priest can effectively play 4 free from ambers in a 30 card deck, two of which are essentially cast for 2 mana with an obligatory 4 cost 4/4 body attached to the casting cost.
Should it be nerfed? Probably not, unless they change the text to be like grand archivist where you'll actually have a spell removed from your deck.
Also, in my opinion, the idea that spiteful decks are "sub-optimal" because you can only include high-cost spells is simply bad logic. There really isn't a punishment for only including large spells. Since these cards vary in their usefulness according to archetype, "traditionally good" tools like swipe or shadow word death are out of place in low-trade priority/overwhelm your opponent style decks.
I think the best evidence to this argument is comparing the disproportionately high win rates of spiteful decks with some of the other archetypes for spiteful classes.
I.e. Spiteful Priest vs. all other priest decks (trash).
i.e. Spiteful Druid vs. all other druid decks (trash with the exception of taunt druid, spiteful is still better).
I dont think it's ruining the game but the card needs a fix for sure.
I fully agree that Spiteful Summoner is terrible for Hearthstone. It strongly supports curvestone, is blatantly overpowered, requires the minimalist amount of skill, and just plain isn't fun to play with or against. It's a neutral Mysterious Challenger and blizz should feel bad for missing it during the last round of nerfs. Nerf Lackey, nerf Summoner, nerf CTA, Nerf level up, watch the meta prosper.
people defending this card /SIGH
Spiteful is balanced from win-rate perspective because of the deck restrictions, which is which is why it hasn't been nerfed. It's just not fun. A card that read: "Start of Game: 50% chance you win, otherwise you lose," that would technically be perfectly balanced. It's just not fun. And its especially not fun for someone riding a streak on the ladder who queues up against you and loses.
I didn't play a lot of spiteful pre-WW, but have been playing a lot of spiteful priest and druid recently and found that games are usually decided on T5/6 depending on if I drew Spiteful. It's even more pronounced in mirror matches, where the game becomes: First to draw spiteful wins.
Just not really fun. Unfun cards should be nerfed even if not OP (see Crystal Core)
The real problem with spiteful is not even spiteful, it’s the fact that it’s stuck with so many huge minions too like the beast rusher and scalebane and the 4/11 taunt and in priest that crazy 7 mana dragon. It’s way to many huge threats and there aren’t enough removals for such huge boards. Not to mention of course mind control and ui are also insane swingy turns for a deck that’s already too strong. It’s literally way too broken. The combination of all this makes the game unfun. I literally cry and lose against every spiteful deck.
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They should have included a "bad" 10 mana minion this expansion so there was risk when someone used Spiteful. Instead, the only "bad" one that exists is sea giant because it only produces an 8/8 on the board.
Druid can also ramp up to turn 6 very easily. Something should be done.
i dont know how anyone can complain about anything other than cubelock. that deck does more broken stuff than anything. you can get 2 tyrantus in a row on turn 5 and 6, or 6 and 7 if not on the coin, and still lose against cubelock.
Spiteful druid, cubelock and odd/even paladin are some of the most common and powerful decks on the ladder and are building a rock-paper-scissors triangle. You cannot nerf one without the other two. Nerfing spiteful would certainly flood the ladder with even more cubelocks, and nobody wants that.
Spiteful really should just be bumped to 8 mana, maybe give her 5/5 stats to make up for it. The card is extremely unfun to play against.
...but...
Why the actual fuck would you ever bring aggro or spiteful decks to casual mode? I understand, you want to be competitive in the game, you want to win and reach higher ranks, so you play the meta decks...But what in the seven hells makes you play a Spiteful / Aggro deck in CASUAL MODE?!?!
Can you please leave elemental-hagatha shamans and quest hunters alone with your bullshit? Or you actually have to learn your curve / face deck? Or you want to TEST the deck you just copied from the internet?!
The only thing I like about this, is when I win... I just fucked your noskill netdeck with my home-made F2P shit (OFC via RNG and sweet draws)
...
Enjoy my sweet, sweet BM...
Ah here we go, spiteful is ruining the game.......dude paladin is ruining the game.......cubelock is ruining the game.......You do have to realize that we just had a rotation, so yes, like with most rotations, there will be the top decks from last season because there really isn't anything else. As usual, Blizzard adds a bunch of new mechanics to the game, but doesn't do much for them.
You do not truly know someone, until you fight them.....
Paladin may seem like it has a superb win rate but really the meta is in such a flux that any stable deck would be doing well against all the experimentation going on right now. Lets give it a few more weeks and see how Paladin fares once the meta settles down. I have a feeling it's not as strong as players think.
The mana curve is essential to the game. You’d rather give everyone 10 mana and the ability to draw their whole deck and play whatever they want?