So, i saw a couple of guys here, who said that OTK combo decks are a healthy part of every card game, and I want to start a thread of discussion, because I couldn't disagree more. This discussion comes from the fact that some people think that Combo Shaman should not be nerfed, because it has a low winrate. Well, of course it has a low winrate, because decks like this make the ladder faster, and some people who don't normally play aggro, are going to the same way.
For me, the worst feeling I can get playing Hearthstone, is that I don't have any chance to win the game, and this is what happens when you have a slow control deck against this combo decks, like Shaman and Quest Mage. At least we had Dirty Rat in the past, but that card was a matter of luck (for most part), and it really sucks when you have to include a card in your deck just because you hate some deck that you would probably not face anymore since you put that tech card. You finally become a spectator of your opponent playing solitaire.
Don't get me wrong, I think that counters are a good thing, but just the typical way: aggro < control, control < midrange and midrange < aggro. Obviously, this doesn't happen like this all the time, mostly because aggro use to be really powerful in this game, but at least you need chances to win a game, even if you're facing your counter deck.
I would agree if this game had "side decks", like Yu-gi-oh, were in a match of 3 games you can change 15 cards of your deck, and you choose those card, according to what decks you normally have struggles beating or simplely you can't beat in a normal situation. But this ladder system isn't "best of 3" and there aren't side decks.
This may just be me, but a combo deck where they have to hold and play bad pieces together to make an OTK feels fine (Quest Mage, Leeroy+Faceless, Freeze Mage etc.). You're essentially holding dead cards for most of the game. It's more skill testing, IMO.
The kind of combo decks that just require you to play cards in order feel less fine (Quest Rogue, Shudderwock, Raza+Anduin). They allow you to do whatever you want with all of your cards so long as you don't die. That feels worse.
This may just be me, but a combo deck where they have to hold and play bad pieces together to make an OTK feels fine (Quest Mage, Leeroy+Faceless, Freeze Mage etc.). You're essentially holding dead cards for most of the game. It's more skill testing, IMO.
The kind of combo decks that just require you to play cards in order feel less fine (Quest Rogue, Shudderwock, Raza+Anduin). They allow you to do whatever you want with all of your cards so long as you don't die. That feels worse.
I agree completely, shudder can just toss cards down randomly all game with no thought.
I love Magic The Gathering, and most combo deck in magic require time to setup or prepare while your opponent has tons of opportunities to counter or prepare to counter. You can’t do shit against shudderwock. They either draw and win or don’t. Killing their minions, countering their spells, none of it changes their endgame.
For me, the worst feeling I can get playing Hearthstone, is that I don't have any chance to win the game, and this is what happens when you have a slow control deck against this combo decks, like Shaman and Quest Mage.
Why is getting destroyed by aggro by turn 4-5 any different then?
If combo decks kill you it's either one of 2 things:
1. You aren't teching properly against them.
2. Your deck is too greedy or too focused on beating aggro to kill them before they use the combo.
The only decks that can't bean an OTK combo are ones in which the only win condition is fatigue, or decks which rely on value to outlast all of an opponent's threats. Otherwise there's always a chance of finishing them before they pull off the combo.
What it means is that if you play pure defense you're not likely to win those matches. Is getting dragged to fatigue by someone with nothing but removal, board-clears, and endless stalling more or less frustrating than seeming to control the game, leading on board and life, until you're smacked down by a one-turn kill combo? That's a subjective question, and not an easy one to answer.
Otk beats control, control beats aggro and aggro beats Otk without otk there couldn’t be a good balance in game harder value deck would which would lead to one tier one deck
OTK Combo decks most of the time are "draw your entire deck and then win."
If you cannot beat someone with part of your deck in the time it takes them to draw their entire deck....what is your deck even doing? No offense or anything.
Yes, rock paper scissors, some decks just lose most of the time to combo decks.
Saying "OTK is unhealthy because it beats me when I'm playing a slow deck" is similar to saying "Water-type Pokemon are unfair because they beat Fire-type Pokemon"
OTK Combo decks most of the time are "draw your entire deck and then win."
If you cannot beat someone with part of your deck in the time it takes them to draw their entire deck....what is your deck even doing? No offense or anything.
Well, that's essentially how Cubelock and Shudderwock decks are designed.
Combo decks put a time limit so the obscenely greedy decks can't fly. If you're complaining about them, and the combo isn't going off ridiculously early, then it's your own fault for playing something so absurdly slow.
OTK Combo decks most of the time are "draw your entire deck and then win."
If you cannot beat someone with part of your deck in the time it takes them to draw their entire deck....what is your deck even doing? No offense or anything.
Well, that's essentially how Cubelock and Shudderwock decks are designed.
Cubelock has a finite amount of resources spread over time. Shudderwock is a one card combo enabled by other cards that you have play over the course of the whole game. They're much different.
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I disagree with you because most OTK decks require you to draw 80% of your deck until you get what you want, BUT, I do personally hate quest mage and this new shaman deck. It's stupidly overpowered and quest mage usually pulls out tons of freezes and ice blocks from glyphs and tomes, so screw both of these decks. Personally, I'd still rather play against OTK decks than aggro, because I have played some combo decks and I can still respect my opponent for his efforts and interactions rather than just going face and ending the un-fun game at turn 4.
OTK Combo decks most of the time are "draw your entire deck and then win."
If you cannot beat someone with part of your deck in the time it takes them to draw their entire deck....what is your deck even doing? No offense or anything.
Well, that's essentially how Cubelock and Shudderwock decks are designed.
Cubelock has a finite amount of resources spread over time. Shudderwock is a one card combo enabled by other cards that you have play over the course of the whole game. They're much different.
Well, it's quite obvious that Shudderwock and Cubelock are very different decks, but they play out the same; draw until you can hit your magic combo and win. I wasn't really saying that they're OTK, but they do tend to have a VERY high win rate after either Carnivorous Cube or Shudderwock is played.
I think a good 90% of the people who use terms like "solitaire" and "uninteractive" to describe combo decks are just buying into the sheep mentality that blizzard has created around them.
Think about this for a couple of seconds. How is a deck whose gameplan relies on playing minions on curve, making obvious trades that any 5 year old toddler can figure out and go face when it has control of the board until it wins any more interactive than a combo deck? You literally play those decks while both you and your opponent watch stuff on youtube. If that's your definition of how HS should be played, I say you're in the wrong, not people who enjoy playing combo decks.
So, i saw a couple of guys here, who said that OTK combo decks are a healthy part of every card game, and I want to start a thread of discussion, because I couldn't disagree more. This discussion comes from the fact that some people think that Combo Shaman should not be nerfed, because it has a low winrate. Well, of course it has a low winrate, because decks like this make the ladder faster, and some people who don't normally play aggro, are going to the same way.
For me, the worst feeling I can get playing Hearthstone, is that I don't have any chance to win the game, and this is what happens when you have a slow control deck against this combo decks, like Shaman and Quest Mage. At least we had Dirty Rat in the past, but that card was a matter of luck (for most part), and it really sucks when you have to include a card in your deck just because you hate some deck that you would probably not face anymore since you put that tech card. You finally become a spectator of your opponent playing solitaire.
Don't get me wrong, I think that counters are a good thing, but just the typical way: aggro < control, control < midrange and midrange < aggro. Obviously, this doesn't happen like this all the time, mostly because aggro use to be really powerful in this game, but at least you need chances to win a game, even if you're facing your counter deck.
I would agree if this game had "side decks", like Yu-gi-oh, were in a match of 3 games you can change 15 cards of your deck, and you choose those card, according to what decks you normally have struggles beating or simplely you can't beat in a normal situation. But this ladder system isn't "best of 3" and there aren't side decks.
What do you guys think?
This may just be me, but a combo deck where they have to hold and play bad pieces together to make an OTK feels fine (Quest Mage, Leeroy+Faceless, Freeze Mage etc.). You're essentially holding dead cards for most of the game. It's more skill testing, IMO.
The kind of combo decks that just require you to play cards in order feel less fine (Quest Rogue, Shudderwock, Raza+Anduin). They allow you to do whatever you want with all of your cards so long as you don't die. That feels worse.
OTKs as a whole aren't inherently unhealthy for a game, but i do think certain OTKs can be.
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The only decks that can't bean an OTK combo are ones in which the only win condition is fatigue, or decks which rely on value to outlast all of an opponent's threats. Otherwise there's always a chance of finishing them before they pull off the combo.
What it means is that if you play pure defense you're not likely to win those matches. Is getting dragged to fatigue by someone with nothing but removal, board-clears, and endless stalling more or less frustrating than seeming to control the game, leading on board and life, until you're smacked down by a one-turn kill combo? That's a subjective question, and not an easy one to answer.
Otk beats control, control beats aggro and aggro beats Otk without otk there couldn’t be a good balance in game harder value deck would which would lead to one tier one deck
OTK Combo decks most of the time are "draw your entire deck and then win."
If you cannot beat someone with part of your deck in the time it takes them to draw their entire deck....what is your deck even doing? No offense or anything.
Yes, rock paper scissors, some decks just lose most of the time to combo decks.
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Combo beats control
Control beats aggro
Aggro beats combo
Saying "OTK is unhealthy because it beats me when I'm playing a slow deck" is similar to saying "Water-type Pokemon are unfair because they beat Fire-type Pokemon"
Exodia and Aggro, that's what's screwing the game.
Again, Shudderwock is not a combo deck.
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Combo decks put a time limit so the obscenely greedy decks can't fly. If you're complaining about them, and the combo isn't going off ridiculously early, then it's your own fault for playing something so absurdly slow.
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I disagree with you because most OTK decks require you to draw 80% of your deck until you get what you want, BUT, I do personally hate quest mage and this new shaman deck. It's stupidly overpowered and quest mage usually pulls out tons of freezes and ice blocks from glyphs and tomes, so screw both of these decks. Personally, I'd still rather play against OTK decks than aggro, because I have played some combo decks and I can still respect my opponent for his efforts and interactions rather than just going face and ending the un-fun game at turn 4.
I think a good 90% of the people who use terms like "solitaire" and "uninteractive" to describe combo decks are just buying into the sheep mentality that blizzard has created around them.
Think about this for a couple of seconds. How is a deck whose gameplan relies on playing minions on curve, making obvious trades that any 5 year old toddler can figure out and go face when it has control of the board until it wins any more interactive than a combo deck? You literally play those decks while both you and your opponent watch stuff on youtube. If that's your definition of how HS should be played, I say you're in the wrong, not people who enjoy playing combo decks.
Quest mage was OTK done right and every set since they been making it more and more useless.
But then u have otk decks like Quest rogue and Shudderwock and im just baffled at how they thought stuff like this is ok.
Midrange doesn't counter control. So you just don't understand basic matchups and want control to be uncounterable
OTK decks ARE healthy - as long as they're not OP.