Cubelock is favoured vs aggro and Control(beside some super greedy steal Priest or otk decks) the only reason its not 90% (more like slightly above 50%) is because of draw rng.
Just wait for the next metasnapshot . Warlock will be the only t1 class.
Playing quite a bit against Paladins and Hunter at rank 6 right now. They're the reason I can't get that damn rank 5.
You simply don't stand a chance if you can't get board clears. And you don't always get them.
Shudderwock is not wrong. I put him in my Bomberwock deck that is really fun. I think the wrong card here is Defile, which is too good to control board early game. Cubelock should be weak in the early game, not versatile. Defile also makes Control Warlock strong and crushes aggro early game. To neutralize Cubelock, Voidlord tag as Demon should be removed and when it is implemented, Lackey will be balanced.
Shudderwock is not wrong. I put him in my Bomberwock deck that is really fun. I think the wrong card here is Defile, which is too good to control board early game. Cubelock should be weak in the early game, not versatile. Defile also makes Control Warlock strong and crushes aggro early game. To neutralize Cubelock, Voidlord tag as Demon should be removed and when it is implemented, Lackey will be balanced.
Remove Defile and Cubelock can just star to insta conceding against anything slightly aggro.
This forum is constantly whining for nerfs. If Blizzard was actually listening to those, the game would be in a pretty bad shape.
Nerf Shudderwock? Why? It's not like it's the first OTK combo ever, is it? It's not even technically ONE Turn Kill.
Nerf Baku Paladin/Hunter? Why? It's not the first extremely aggro oriented deck either, is it?
Nerf Cubelock? Why? They sure as hell get stomped by some aggro decks too, don't they?
Okay, I agree with you on both the fact that people are whining and on Shudderwock (actually think that deck terrible) and Baku Pala/Hunter - But Cubelock losing to aggro is nothing but a fantasy, unless you play extremly terrible the only Aggro deck that should ever be able to kill you should be Hunter and that would even require you drawing quite badly...
Exact. I used to hate this stupid/boring Cube/pact-Combo for endless double-ing Chaarrrrge and tauntwalls while healing for absurd amounts at the same time....
but actually i realised Defile maybe more problematic. you can so easily with 0 IQ clear a board mainly consisting of midrange minions. Its often better than hellfire while at the same time ready to use since turn 2. This card should go up in Cost for 2-3 more mana.
>>> Cubelock is stomped by aggro Please, tell me this is a joke - As a cubelock, you easily destroy almost every aggro ( Except Baku hunter, ofc ), because you can trick out Voidlord in T6 ( + You also get healed for 8 ). Not to mention you have preeetty OP early-game board clears ( Hellfire, Defile ) and great capabilities of healing ( Spellstones, Dark Pact ), so you do not even have to worry about your health.
And almost auto-win matchups against control are also unhealthy for meta ;)
This answers is addressed to everyone saying aggro is not a counter to Cubelock.
So let me get this straight.. Everyone agrees that Cubelock is doing great against other Control decks, yes? And you tell me it also does very well against all aggro decks?
How come Cubeblock doesn't get a winrate of 90%? How come we still see Cubelock all around the ladder? Because surely, with a deck that has absolutely no flows whatsoever, anyone could climb up to legend, couldn't they?
"You can trick out Voidlord on T6 + heal 8"
In theory yes. But what if:
During the 5 first turns I draw 2 Voidlord?
What if I didn't draw Possesed Lackey?
What if I didn't draw Dark Pact?
What if Possessed Lackey gets me a Doomguard instead?
What if my Voidlord gets silenced?
"Not to mention you have preeetty OP early-game board clears"
Yes you do. But what if I don't draw them? My face is just wide open for 5 turns, and that is if I can get a Voidlord on turn 6.
I can't tell you how many games against aggro Paladins, Hunters and Mages lasted less than 2 minutes because I couldn't get a removal/board clear to answer early game.
"and great capabilities of healing ( Spellstones, Dark Pact ), so you do not even have to worry about your health."
I think now we've established that some cards are just mandatory to even consider winning.
Now, how do you make sure you get those important cards? You draw, as much a possible. And in case you're not aware, drawing 1 card cost 2 HP, every time. You also want to play Kobolds Librarian, which is the only minion you can put on board in early game, which takes 2 HP. So if you get unlucky with your draws, you'll be down 15 HP while your opponent is at 30 and has established a board after a few turns. The healing tools Cubelock has will allow it to comeback in game, if used correctly. Spellstones? You need to upgrade them at least once for them to have an impact. Dark Pact? Well you actually need a minion to use it on without completely ruining your plan.
Cubelock is powerful, and CAN win against aggro, but it's not favored against them.
Cubelock is powerful, but RNG can mess you up very quickly. Because of that it requires a skilled player to play it. I know you won't admit it, but that's just the way it is.
"And almost auto-win matchups against control are also unhealthy for meta ;)"
It has been this way since I started to play. Some archetypes are very strong against some other archetypes.
For example, in Kobolds, playing Cubelock against Secret Mage was a nightmare.
Secret mage vs cube was nowhere near a "nightmare" for the warlock. It was about 55-60% in the mages favor, although ironically enough secret mage was still probably the closest thing to a counter that existed even before the rotation, other than things like Kingsbane, Quest Rogue or Quest Mage with which you essentially accept that you're going to lose every game that isn't against cube, or an otherwise very slow deck. Other aggro decks, like paladin, hunter, druid(which became almost non existent eventually) simply got floored by the deck. And that was BEFORE the rotation came and took most tools that other decks had to combat the warlock. Now mages don't have access to firelands portal, medivh's valet and cabal crystal runner. Warlock lost VERY little from the rotation compared to other classes, and actually gained Godfrey, which is a pretty broken card in itself.
The reason you don't see more people play cubelock at the lower ranks is because 1) it's a control deck, and people want faster games and 2) it's actually the hardest deck to pilot in the game right now, and people at lower ranks suck balls at it. Take a look at any random streamer who's playing hearthstone at top 100 legend, and count the cube locks he's facing. Then maybe you realize how big of a problem the deck actually is right now.
Several days in and we still have people complaining the community is asking for Shudderwock changes and saying people whine or are babies or snowflakes or whatever the current dismissive vernacular is. Is it so hard to actually read what people are saying (i.e. the animation times are what make Shudderwock broken) before assuming they're wrong and jumping on a soapbox to preach at everyone? Moreover do people seriously not see the irony in making a thread to complain that people complain too much?
>>> Cubelock is stomped by aggro Please, tell me this is a joke - As a cubelock, you easily destroy almost every aggro ( Except Baku hunter, ofc ), because you can trick out Voidlord in T6 ( + You also get healed for 8 ). Not to mention you have preeetty OP early-game board clears ( Hellfire, Defile ) and great capabilities of healing ( Spellstones, Dark Pact ), so you do not even have to worry about your health.
And almost auto-win matchups against control are also unhealthy for meta ;)
This answers is addressed to everyone saying aggro is not a counter to Cubelock.
So let me get this straight.. Everyone agrees that Cubelock is doing great against other Control decks, yes? And you tell me it also does very well against all aggro decks?
How come Cubeblock doesn't get a winrate of 90%? How come we still see Cubelock all around the ladder? Because surely, with a deck that has absolutely no flows whatsoever, anyone could climb up to legend, couldn't they?
"You can trick out Voidlord on T6 + heal 8"
In theory yes. But what if:
During the 5 first turns I draw 2 Voidlord?
What if I didn't draw Possesed Lackey?
What if I didn't draw Dark Pact?
What if Possessed Lackey gets me a Doomguard instead?
What if my Voidlord gets silenced?
"Not to mention you have preeetty OP early-game board clears"
Yes you do. But what if I don't draw them? My face is just wide open for 5 turns, and that is if I can get a Voidlord on turn 6.
I can't tell you how many games against aggro Paladins, Hunters and Mages lasted less than 2 minutes because I couldn't get a removal/board clear to answer early game.
"and great capabilities of healing ( Spellstones, Dark Pact ), so you do not even have to worry about your health."
I think now we've established that some cards are just mandatory to even consider winning.
Now, how do you make sure you get those important cards? You draw, as much a possible. And in case you're not aware, drawing 1 card cost 2 HP, every time. You also want to play Kobolds Librarian, which is the only minion you can put on board in early game, which takes 2 HP. So if you get unlucky with your draws, you'll be down 15 HP while your opponent is at 30 and has established a board after a few turns. The healing tools Cubelock has will allow it to comeback in game, if used correctly. Spellstones? You need to upgrade them at least once for them to have an impact. Dark Pact? Well you actually need a minion to use it on without completely ruining your plan.
Cubelock is powerful, and CAN win against aggro, but it's not favored against them.
Cubelock is powerful, but RNG can mess you up very quickly. Because of that it requires a skilled player to play it. I know you won't admit it, but that's just the way it is.
"And almost auto-win matchups against control are also unhealthy for meta ;)"
It has been this way since I started to play. Some archetypes are very strong against some other archetypes.
For example, in Kobolds, playing Cubelock against Secret Mage was a nightmare.
Secret mage vs cube was nowhere near a "nightmare" for the warlock. It was about 55-60% in the mages favor, although ironically enough secret mage was still probably the closest thing to a counter that existed even before the rotation, other than things like Kingsbane, Quest Rogue or Quest Mage with which you essentially accept that you're going to lose every game that isn't against cube, or an otherwise very slow deck. Other aggro decks, like paladin, hunter, druid(which became almost non existent eventually) simply got floored by the deck. And that was BEFORE the rotation came and took most tools that other decks had to combat the warlock. Now mages don't have access to firelands portal, medivh's valet and cabal crystal runner. Warlock lost VERY little from the rotation compared to other classes, and actually gained Godfrey, which is a pretty broken card in itself.
The reason you don't see more people play cubelock at the lower ranks is because 1) it's a control deck, and people want faster games and 2) it's actually the hardest deck to pilot in the game right now, and people at lower ranks suck balls at it. Take a look at any random streamer who's playing hearthstone at top 100 legend, and count the cube locks he's facing. Then maybe you realize how big of a problem the deck actually is right now.
"Secret mage vs cube was nowhere near a "nightmare" for the warlock."
Oh come on man.. Cubelock would just go down to 10 HP is 4 turns more often than not. Mage spamming spells at its face and ignoring board clears and taunts, nothing a Cubelock can do about that!
I'm glad you said that it's the hardest deck to pilot. I believe so too, and most people don't realize that. They imagine it's just brainlessly spamming cards as they come.
But since it is the hardest deck, isn't it just fair that skilled players get rewarded? "If you suck at it the deck is terrible. If you're good at it it's powerful". I really don't see what is wrong with that.
An example I can think of is Overwatch. Some heroes can straight up carry a whole team if played by a very skilled player.
Something that does not seem fair though, is a deck that requires no skill to play, but still is very powerful. For example I would say that Odd Paladin is quite easy to play, while still being Tier 1.
Several days in and we still have people complaining the community is asking for Shudderwock changes and saying people whine or are babies or snowflakes or whatever the current dismissive vernacular is. Is it so hard to actually read what people are saying (i.e. the animation times are what make Shudderwock broken) before assuming they're wrong and jumping on a soapbox to preach at everyone? Moreover do people seriously not see the irony in making a thread to complain that people complain too much?
" Is it so hard to actually read what people are saying (i.e. the animation times are what make Shudderwock broken)"
Talking about reading? I mentioned multiple times that the animation times need to be fixed. This is the only thing that needs to be changed with that card.
But majority of people here, or on Blizzard's forums, are also (mostly) complaining about the power level of the card, and asking it to be nerfed.
"Moreover do people seriously not see the irony in making a thread to complain that people complain too much?"
My thread is not called : "guys, stop complaining". I'm stating that I'm glad Blizzard is not listening to lamba users complains. Is it allowed to give a personal opinion?
Shudderwock must be changed, because it severely limits the battlecries Blizzard can implement for the rest of the Year of the Raven, as well as completely hosing wild players. He's simply bad design. A fun card, yes. But bad design none the less.
The card is restricted to shaman, it isn't like all battlecries until the next rotation have to be built in consideration of this card.
Shudderwok will definitely NOT rule wild. Do you honestly think any Shudderwok deck stands a chance against Giant Hunter, Giant Lock, Big Priest, or Kingsbane Rogue? I'm not worried in the slightest.
While whining never really appears justified, there are certainly reasonable criticisms which can be directed at the new set. The dust won't settle for a few weeks, and there isn't much point in making categorical statements about the state of the game, the intelligence of designers, and half a dozen other things which community members like to yell about. But it also seems likely that the decks which will emerge from the next two or so weeks of ladder attrition are going to be the same decks which folks have been playing since Kobolds and Frozen Throne, differing by a few cards here and there. Aggro Paladin has been the top deck in the format for months, and the two new flavours introduced by WW don't really innovate too much on the archetype. Cubelock is also the same deck it was two weeks ago - but its win-rate has received a 5% bump according to HSReplays, as the already refined deck gets to prey on the experimental crap people will be piloting for the foreseeable future. It's win-rate and play-rate might normalize when the meta-game stabilizes, but the alternative seems more likely.
I play about 200 Wild games every month, and a dozen or so Standard games. It's perfectly fine and acceptable for eternal formats to settle into long-term stasis - for lots of people, that's the allure of the format. But it seems entirely at odds with the rationale for having introduced the Standard format to accept that rotation and the introduction of a new set won't have any particularly noticeable effect among the collection of top decks being piloted for the next four months. If the current situation persists into the period of meta-stabilization, Blizzard's intervention will be required - none of the decks might have degenerate win-rates, but that isn't the point of any potential nerfs. Rather, intervention would be required to make the Standard format "fresh and exciting."
Call to Arms should probably cost 5-mana. Different builds of Aggro Paladin have had win-rates above 56% for over four months.
Possessed Lackey should probably cost 6-mana. Standard simply doesn't have enough tools for many classes to deal with early Big Guys.
Spiteful Summoner should probably cost 8-mana. Same as Possessed Lackey, the card is often equivalent to a 6-mana 12/12, give or take.
My two cents - if Iksar's recent post was any indication, I suppose we'll see what happens in a few days . . .
edit - as far as Wild goes, I'd like to see Naga Sea Witch cost 6-mana.
While the OP didn't give very good arguments I do agree.
I played this game since beta and there were ALWAYS people that complained on the forums about ,,annoying / too powerful,, decks and asking for nerfs. Main targets are generally tier 1 decks ( any archetype ) and tier 2 ( aggro / OTK ) decks.
By now I see that it will never stop no matter what Blizzard does so yeah...I am also happy that Blizzard doesn't 100% listen to the forums, otherwise if you like a certain deck and it is tier 1-2 , it gets nerfed 1-2 months later and you don't get to enjoy it as much.
Can't believe people are defending Cubelock/Paladin to this extent and saying everything is fine. Numbers before WW and numbers atm state that they are a cancer that stayed put. Few tweaks could balance things in the right direction, so I am curios why such fierce rejection of the possibility.
Also I am aware that there are other decks that are showing up to be broken, and they too should get looked at.
What if I told you they are already looking at Shudderwock to see if it needs some fixing?
Considering that the deck is dropping in popularity already because of how slow it is that should be an indicator that it is likely that only the animation length will be nerfed.
Rather, intervention would be required to make the Standard format "fresh and exciting."
Call to Arms should probably cost 5-mana. Different builds of Aggro Paladin have had win-rates above 56% for over four months.
Possessed Lackey should probably cost 6-mana. Standard simply doesn't have enough tools for many classes to deal with early Big Guys.
Spiteful Summoner should probably cost 8-mana. Same as Possessed Lackey, the card is often equivalent to a 6-mana 12/12, give or take.
Thing is...all 3 cards you mentioned are from the Kobolds expansion and are pretty deck defining. Which means if Blizzard wanted to make every standard rotation completely fresh any deck defining cards from the 3rd expansion of the previous year would have to be nerfed if the decks are tier 1-2 . That means that the deck defining cards of any 3rd expansion in a year are far less valuable to players because they know that in a few months those cards will not matter any more. Why would anyone spend any money on that 3rd expansion then? Why would anyone spend their hard earned dust to make a cool deck that revolves around cards from the 3rd yearly expack when it will last so little ( compared to other expansions ) . What if you crafted 2x Carnivorous Cube and Skull of the Man'ari ( not knowing that Blizzard nerfs good 3rd expansion cards a few months later ) to play Cubelock and then Possessed Lackey gets nerfed and renders the deck unplayable ( or really bad ). You only get dust from Possessed Lackey so you are screwed . Even if you knew that Blizzard does this you would feel bad about not being able to play a deck that maybe you think is fun even if you had the dust, just because it is a really bad investment of dust to do so.
Another option is for Blizzard not to print any deck defining cards in the 3rd expansion but then the expack would be really boring.
So yeah...this is a good compromise. The rotation is still pretty refreshing but there are some decks that slip through it ( but those decks will 100% disappear the next time rotation comes ) . Nerfs on relatively new archetypes only when absolutely necessary.
What if I told you they are already looking at Shudderwock to see if it needs some fixing?
Considering that the deck is dropping in popularity already because of how slow it is that should be an indicator that it is likely that only the animation length will be nerfed.
To be fair, I have'nt met a single Shudderwock deck yet, so I'm quite neutral about it getting anything besides that animation time fixing -wich is nice-
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Shudderwock is not wrong. I put him in my Bomberwock deck that is really fun.
I think the wrong card here is Defile, which is too good to control board early game. Cubelock should be weak in the early game, not versatile. Defile also makes Control Warlock strong and crushes aggro early game.
To neutralize Cubelock, Voidlord tag as Demon should be removed and when it is implemented, Lackey will be balanced.
Several days in and we still have people complaining the community is asking for Shudderwock changes and saying people whine or are babies or snowflakes or whatever the current dismissive vernacular is. Is it so hard to actually read what people are saying (i.e. the animation times are what make Shudderwock broken) before assuming they're wrong and jumping on a soapbox to preach at everyone? Moreover do people seriously not see the irony in making a thread to complain that people complain too much?
"If you remove it I win, so it must be OP" - this guy probably
What ? OTK is control , what OTK deck is not played as control ?
While whining never really appears justified, there are certainly reasonable criticisms which can be directed at the new set. The dust won't settle for a few weeks, and there isn't much point in making categorical statements about the state of the game, the intelligence of designers, and half a dozen other things which community members like to yell about. But it also seems likely that the decks which will emerge from the next two or so weeks of ladder attrition are going to be the same decks which folks have been playing since Kobolds and Frozen Throne, differing by a few cards here and there. Aggro Paladin has been the top deck in the format for months, and the two new flavours introduced by WW don't really innovate too much on the archetype. Cubelock is also the same deck it was two weeks ago - but its win-rate has received a 5% bump according to HSReplays, as the already refined deck gets to prey on the experimental crap people will be piloting for the foreseeable future. It's win-rate and play-rate might normalize when the meta-game stabilizes, but the alternative seems more likely.
I play about 200 Wild games every month, and a dozen or so Standard games. It's perfectly fine and acceptable for eternal formats to settle into long-term stasis - for lots of people, that's the allure of the format. But it seems entirely at odds with the rationale for having introduced the Standard format to accept that rotation and the introduction of a new set won't have any particularly noticeable effect among the collection of top decks being piloted for the next four months. If the current situation persists into the period of meta-stabilization, Blizzard's intervention will be required - none of the decks might have degenerate win-rates, but that isn't the point of any potential nerfs. Rather, intervention would be required to make the Standard format "fresh and exciting."
Call to Arms should probably cost 5-mana. Different builds of Aggro Paladin have had win-rates above 56% for over four months.
Possessed Lackey should probably cost 6-mana. Standard simply doesn't have enough tools for many classes to deal with early Big Guys.
Spiteful Summoner should probably cost 8-mana. Same as Possessed Lackey, the card is often equivalent to a 6-mana 12/12, give or take.
My two cents - if Iksar's recent post was any indication, I suppose we'll see what happens in a few days . . .
edit - as far as Wild goes, I'd like to see Naga Sea Witch cost 6-mana.
What if I told you they are already looking at Shudderwock to see if it needs some fixing?
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While the OP didn't give very good arguments I do agree.
I played this game since beta and there were ALWAYS people that complained on the forums about ,,annoying / too powerful,, decks and asking for nerfs. Main targets are generally tier 1 decks ( any archetype ) and tier 2 ( aggro / OTK ) decks.
By now I see that it will never stop no matter what Blizzard does so yeah...I am also happy that Blizzard doesn't 100% listen to the forums, otherwise if you like a certain deck and it is tier 1-2 , it gets nerfed 1-2 months later and you don't get to enjoy it as much.
Can't believe people are defending Cubelock/Paladin to this extent and saying everything is fine.
Numbers before WW and numbers atm state that they are a cancer that stayed put.
Few tweaks could balance things in the right direction, so I am curios why such fierce rejection of the possibility.
Also I am aware that there are other decks that are showing up to be broken, and they too should get looked at.
Cubelock is just unfair and MUST be nerfed. It oppreses the full meta, nothing more to say.
I will crush you!
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