I am pretty sure the mechanic will not be too oppresive, they have gotten better at throwing lots of different mechanics into an expansion, and making that work well, two-three different archetypes seemed to be pushed every expansion, and I think the even /odd class cards are in many cases just gonna be options in that classes odd or even deck, if they have one. I bet there will be one or two decent ones, probably warlock and druid will be the ones I expect, but I don't think those decks will be oppresive, or particularly bad, I think that there will also be many many other options for deckbuilding than just odd or even decks, people seem to either think those cards will see no play, or they will be the only choices, but I think that that is silly given what we have seen in the past year. Blizzard has gotten great at making diverse and interesting metas in my opinion. Cubelock is really powerful sure, but there are counters and the meta won't sit still even as the next expansion looms. Seriously, when weapon rogue suddenly surfaces into the midst of a meta that has different control decks popping up and countering each other one after another, and aggro decks still viable but not in an oppresive cycle like we saw in mean streets or karazan where the number of options got severly limited by the overpresence of certain decks and their counters. I also think predicting anything now is kinda dumb, as we will lose like 400+ cards and get 135 new ones. That is a gigantic change and thinking that we are all doomed because a mechanic is going to be in the next expansion seems really hysterical, but I guess that is the hearthstone community for you. We really are just a bunch of headless chickens screaming our lungs out even though that physically makes no sense.
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Just fill your deck with one drops, that is creative deck design, right?
From a design perspective, I think these cards are really awesome. They open a whole new way to build decks. Right out of the gate with this expansion reveal, there are 18 different new decks that will be available to play in standard, two for each class, and they haven't even revealed any class legendaries yet. With the rotation of more than 300 cards out of standard in year of the Raven, this is a pretty good thing for deckbuilding while the total card count in standard is at its lowest. It will only get more interesting as the year progresses with new expansions.
It also gives certain cards a new value by leveraging their cost. There are many common and rares from the last few expansions that were never given a chance just because better cards filled their slots. Now they have a chance to surface in certain decks just because their cost might make them best-in-slot.
AND, hero powers! Justicar Trueheart was an awesome card in TGT, arguably the best from that expansion, and now it is being reborn in an even better format. With full odd or even draws, the hero power will be essential to fill the curve. Face hunter, tank warrior, control warlock, maybe even totem shaman, dude paladin will all see immense gain from upgraded hero powers.
edit: I posted this before I even saw the new cards released like the priest moth. These cards look great! Totem shaman might turn into something really fun to play.
I think its terrible. If they only release one kind (either odd or even) for each class, then they are severely limiting choice in deck building---All priestd using the mechanic will go odd, all Shamans even, etc. And if they give each class one or more of each, then they are giving us cards that can't possibly be played together.
Either way, the mechanic limits choice. I thinks its poor design.
Those cards are super interesting. Far from poor design. It's all about deck building and we will be seeing more cards like that in the set.
It's about deck building where half the card pool is unavailable to you.
They are the definition of excellent designs.
You might not like them and that is fine. Also they might not be cards that we can find tons and tons of future design space for but they are creating something new and that alone is excellent.
Its cool, but i hope the archetype does not revolve around too many epics and legendaries so the average player can play it. Feels like if there ever was an expac to preorder, this is it.
I want to state a point that a lot of people are missing. Genn and Baku are so good for novice deck builders and people who generally do not like building decks. We are the kind of people who just want to 'press start' and play the game and not debate or flip through a huge collection. These 2 cards cut our collection in half and make small changes much more manageable. After playing with these 2, I foresee it being hard to go back to the traditional deck building style.
I don't like them at all... I can't wait for the day Blizzard stops giving us their deck ideas to play with, but cards to build our own decks with... We had this issue with C'thun where you had to fill your deck with C'thun enablers to make it worth playing, thus leaving not much room for creativity.. Same with jade idols, just stuff every jade card you have access to into your deck and fill the rest with power cards. Now if the odd/even decks prove to be playable they will all look the same again. All of them will use the cards providing bonuses for having odd/even decks, and fill the rest with power cards with little to no variation...
I have a feeling that if they stopped forcing deck concepts like this we would have a much more interesting and versatile expansion start due to people experimenting and trying to figure out what works and what not, instead of everybody trying to make baku or graymane work.. Of course well-performing optimized decks come out on top sooner or later and everybody starts playing the same stuff, but maybe it would be more later than sooner if Blizzard didn't force these powerful shells to build decks around.
Let us figure out on our own without super obvious instructions how to combine multiple cards for a great effect. For example, when Dirty rat came out, it didn't say "potentially good with MC tech" but players figured out that playing dirty rat might make MC tech perform better and tried it out... It might not be game winning, but its an interesting interaction nonetheless and makes us think "In what kind of deck would I want this in? Let's try this and that...".. Mind, this is just a silly example to get my point across..
I just wished they designed expansions so they cover cards for all the archetypes from aggro, midrange, control to combo and let us explore and come up with the cool stuff instead of railwaying deck concepts like jades, quests, handbuffs, C'thun etc...
If you don't like deckbuilding, fine.. Choose a recipe or find a deck here and get it going.
I want to state a point that a lot of people are missing. Genn and Baku are so good for novice deck builders and people who generally do not like building decks. We are the kind of people who just want to 'press start' and play the game and not debate or flip through a huge collection. These 2 cards cut our collection in half and make small changes much more manageable. After playing with these 2, I foresee it being hard to go back to the traditional deck building style.
You are kidding, right?
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I wanna glide down, over Mulholland I wanna write her, name in the sky I wanna free fall, out into nothin' Gonna leave this, world for awhile
I have to disagree with folks who aren't excited about this type of play. It's still early, and I could end up being wrong, but it really feels like the Odd/Even thing opens up interesting ways to play different classes:
Odd Priest: Glitter Moth along with the upgraded hero power opens up a new way to get value out of getting value out of Inner Fire in a tempo deck without relying on it as your sole, OTK win condition, and it opens up shenanigans with Void Ripper similar to Confuse during the brief spike in OTK Priest before last year's rotation.
Odd Druid: Gloom Stag is massively overstated taunt. Along with the upgraded hero power and tools like Earthen Scales, Naturalize, and Lesser Jasper Spellstone, Druid is shaping up have a taunt archetype for an attrition style similar to the old Control Warrior style of play.
Even Shaman: Murkspark Eel and the 1 cost hero power (along with Flametongue Totem and Primalfin Totem) give you a lot of board flood and early board control power, but prevent you from running Bloodlust, so Even Shaman can look a lot like an old Shaman deck, but with a new win condition.
*Odd Mage has been teased a bit with Black Cat, but so far I haven't found that particular card super compelling. I think it could be a useful cycle tool in an Odd Big Spell Mage deck, but there hasn't been enough revealed for me to be confident that the upgraded hero power can get you through the early turns, or that the cycle on the cat is enough to make the deck move.
Bigger problem is that it tells ur opponent which cards u arent running making ur deck easier to predict and play around it. It wil be interesting for Wild tho
I didn’t think of this but this is a really big point. If a mage drops the cat you know you don’t have to be scared of fireballs, frostbolts, or pyroblasts, and can afford to play for dangerously without fear of too much direct damage spells
Developer already said there are only a few cards support this even- odd stuff, and not all class have one. So you dont have to build the even- odd deck if you dont want..
Only thing im worried about is the mechanic becoming opressive. If they print an odd 1 drop for hunter, which they probably will judging by how excited they are about the currently trash deck, were in for a facehunter shitshow
I don’t think so.
Hearthstone has often shown how important curve play is. Unless you have great catchup cards ,aoe ,and healing ( wich is why Warloc is so strong atm) ,we are still forced to play that kind of curvestone to have a good tier 1 deck ( Tokenpally, Secretmage).
While some ppl go crazy about some of those even/odd cards , they also have to be so powerful to make up for the fact ( fe. Mages 3/3Cat) that you are playing a turn before probably only your heropower,wich is roughly 0,7 worth of mana on turn 2! And this is goes trough out the whole game,you always play suboptimal, wich means this archetype is not viable,or it is viable with many more powerful even/odd cards to follow. We will see.
It seems to me the odd deck going to be easier/more efficient to play vs the even cost deck for 2 reasons.
1) Playing 2 or 4 odd cards in 1 turn allows you to spend an even turns mana in full, whereas with even decks you can never spend your full mana in an odd turn without the coin or some cost reduction in play.
2) With odd deck it will be possible to play a card turn 1 no matter if you go first or second, with even deck you will always have to wait til turn 2 or use the coin if you start second.
This was my first thought too and I'm surprised it isn't mentioned more. Aside from the fact that improved hero power is better than 1 mana hero power, odds seem to have a much cleaner curve. Evens will play below curve for half of their first 10 turns. Even after turn 10, they can't use all 10 mana and take advantage of their reduced price hero power.
It's too early to make any decisions yet but this just seems poorly thought out if it's meant to be at all competitive.
You can't tech against these kinda decks y'all. The effect happens at the start of the game so even if you shuffle the darkness candles in it won't do anything.
They are more so talking about sabotaging the support cards, not the main engine.
It's about deck building where half the card pool is unavailable to you.
Limitations that can provide some additional power make for a challenge - that's deckbuilding for you. You need to figure out how to compete with this limited card pool and the process of getting there makes for an interesting concept.
Saying it's poor design due to it limiting is like saying them putting out a card that only works with beasts is bad design because it limits the pool of cards.
Options are good. New ways of playing are even better.
You are awesome my man. Love the great work. And I'm 100 procent behind your statement.
I don't think the options are as robust as you think, and beasts are not a good comparison. Let's look at a couple examples:
1. C'Thun: Very similar to this odd/even thing, and an example where options are severely limited. You had to commit at least 75% of your deck to C'thun cards to make it worth it. For a month or two after WotG, it was new and fun. But everyone got tired of seeing the same cards in every deck, and C'thun has hardly been seen since.
2. N'Zoth: This card allows for options. There was a successful N'Zoth Pally with just 2 or 3 deathrattles, there were rogue and priest decks that spammed more little deathrattles guys, hunter too. The card is still viable, if not essential in the new control and cube lock decks. This is an example of good design that allows for a lot exploration and continued use and fun. Beast interactions are more like this, though more limited by the fact that only a few classes have any real beast synergy. Still, a lot of hunter decks make due with a core of 5-10 beast cards, leaving lots of room for options.
My point is that every deck using this odd/even thing will have the odd/even neutrals, the odd/even class cards, and then the top-played odd/even neutrals and class cards. Blizzard has tried to steer deck building before with C'thun and deck recipes, but this is perhaps the most blatant attempt. They might as well sell pre-built decks because the best odd/even decks are going to be in place within the first week of the meta, and won't change much until nerfs or new cards happen. Compare to the Ungoro meta, where decks were constantly changing for months into the meta, even before the Quest Rogue nerf.
I like cards that promote new archetypes but not when they're force fed to us. Reno Jackson was cool because of his unique design and extremely strong battlecry. It also gave you so many options to build a deck with and that was so cool to think of what tech or what card is better than the other. Then they introduced Kazakus and it went from being a gimmicky, but pretty competitive deck to something almost cookie cutter like. It reminds me of the c'thun and dragon decks, decks that don't take a lot of thought to build and mostly play themselves. I don't like the odd or even card support because it seems like the decks won't have very many options in how it's built, it's looking like the decks will be very one dimensional (at least for the first set, but hey there's still a 100 or so cards left). They also seem very low in power level. Cutting wild growth, swipe, wrath, ultimate infestation, doesn't seem worth it for a 4/8 taunt for 5 mana, and neither does the upgraded hero power. I hope they only have one of these even odd cards for each class, because otherwise it's going to be a bad and you'll just have some useless cards in a set, or it'll be strong but builds itself and plays very boringly. I hope I'm wrong and the deck building options are vast and interesting, but I doubt it.
I think it's probably likely that each class will receive one even/odd card, but probably not any more than that
And then we'll get a few more neutral even/odd cards. This won't be enough cards to make it viable for most classes. Maybe one class will be able to make it work, but theses will be useless cards for the other classes.
The success of this odd/even mechanic lies entirely on how good the payoff cards are. So far outside of the two Legendaries, I'm not super optimistic. Giving up even-cost cards in Mage, Druid, and Preist seems incredibly tough to do. Giving up odd-cost in Shaman isn't quite as bad, but there are still a lot of quality cards you're passing the chance to use.
I'll hold out my final thoughts on whether the mechanic will be viable competitively once all the cards are spoiled, but either way I don't necessarily think it is bad design. It is a lot more limiting than the previous deckbuilding restrictive cards like the Kabal cards and the Princes though, which just means the payoff needs to be better for it to be viable.
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I am pretty sure the mechanic will not be too oppresive, they have gotten better at throwing lots of different mechanics into an expansion, and making that work well, two-three different archetypes seemed to be pushed every expansion, and I think the even /odd class cards are in many cases just gonna be options in that classes odd or even deck, if they have one. I bet there will be one or two decent ones, probably warlock and druid will be the ones I expect, but I don't think those decks will be oppresive, or particularly bad, I think that there will also be many many other options for deckbuilding than just odd or even decks, people seem to either think those cards will see no play, or they will be the only choices, but I think that that is silly given what we have seen in the past year. Blizzard has gotten great at making diverse and interesting metas in my opinion. Cubelock is really powerful sure, but there are counters and the meta won't sit still even as the next expansion looms. Seriously, when weapon rogue suddenly surfaces into the midst of a meta that has different control decks popping up and countering each other one after another, and aggro decks still viable but not in an oppresive cycle like we saw in mean streets or karazan where the number of options got severly limited by the overpresence of certain decks and their counters. I also think predicting anything now is kinda dumb, as we will lose like 400+ cards and get 135 new ones. That is a gigantic change and thinking that we are all doomed because a mechanic is going to be in the next expansion seems really hysterical, but I guess that is the hearthstone community for you. We really are just a bunch of headless chickens screaming our lungs out even though that physically makes no sense.
Just fill your deck with one drops, that is creative deck design, right?
From a design perspective, I think these cards are really awesome. They open a whole new way to build decks. Right out of the gate with this expansion reveal, there are 18 different new decks that will be available to play in standard, two for each class, and they haven't even revealed any class legendaries yet. With the rotation of more than 300 cards out of standard in year of the Raven, this is a pretty good thing for deckbuilding while the total card count in standard is at its lowest. It will only get more interesting as the year progresses with new expansions.
It also gives certain cards a new value by leveraging their cost. There are many common and rares from the last few expansions that were never given a chance just because better cards filled their slots. Now they have a chance to surface in certain decks just because their cost might make them best-in-slot.
AND, hero powers! Justicar Trueheart was an awesome card in TGT, arguably the best from that expansion, and now it is being reborn in an even better format. With full odd or even draws, the hero power will be essential to fill the curve. Face hunter, tank warrior, control warlock, maybe even totem shaman, dude paladin will all see immense gain from upgraded hero powers.
edit: I posted this before I even saw the new cards released like the priest moth. These cards look great! Totem shaman might turn into something really fun to play.
I want to state a point that a lot of people are missing. Genn and Baku are so good for novice deck builders and people who generally do not like building decks. We are the kind of people who just want to 'press start' and play the game and not debate or flip through a huge collection. These 2 cards cut our collection in half and make small changes much more manageable. After playing with these 2, I foresee it being hard to go back to the traditional deck building style.
I don't like them at all... I can't wait for the day Blizzard stops giving us their deck ideas to play with, but cards to build our own decks with...
We had this issue with C'thun where you had to fill your deck with C'thun enablers to make it worth playing, thus leaving not much room for creativity.. Same with jade idols, just stuff every jade card you have access to into your deck and fill the rest with power cards. Now if the odd/even decks prove to be playable they will all look the same again. All of them will use the cards providing bonuses for having odd/even decks, and fill the rest with power cards with little to no variation...
I have a feeling that if they stopped forcing deck concepts like this we would have a much more interesting and versatile expansion start due to people experimenting and trying to figure out what works and what not, instead of everybody trying to make baku or graymane work..
Of course well-performing optimized decks come out on top sooner or later and everybody starts playing the same stuff, but maybe it would be more later than sooner if Blizzard didn't force these powerful shells to build decks around.
Let us figure out on our own without super obvious instructions how to combine multiple cards for a great effect. For example, when Dirty rat came out, it didn't say "potentially good with MC tech" but players figured out that playing dirty rat might make MC tech perform better and tried it out... It might not be game winning, but its an interesting interaction nonetheless and makes us think "In what kind of deck would I want this in? Let's try this and that...".. Mind, this is just a silly example to get my point across..
I just wished they designed expansions so they cover cards for all the archetypes from aggro, midrange, control to combo and let us explore and come up with the cool stuff instead of railwaying deck concepts like jades, quests, handbuffs, C'thun etc...
If you don't like deckbuilding, fine.. Choose a recipe or find a deck here and get it going.
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland
I wanna write her, name in the sky
I wanna free fall, out into nothin'
Gonna leave this, world for awhile
I have to disagree with folks who aren't excited about this type of play. It's still early, and I could end up being wrong, but it really feels like the Odd/Even thing opens up interesting ways to play different classes:
Odd Priest: Glitter Moth along with the upgraded hero power opens up a new way to get value out of getting value out of Inner Fire in a tempo deck without relying on it as your sole, OTK win condition, and it opens up shenanigans with Void Ripper similar to Confuse during the brief spike in OTK Priest before last year's rotation.
Odd Druid: Gloom Stag is massively overstated taunt. Along with the upgraded hero power and tools like Earthen Scales, Naturalize, and Lesser Jasper Spellstone, Druid is shaping up have a taunt archetype for an attrition style similar to the old Control Warrior style of play.
Even Shaman: Murkspark Eel and the 1 cost hero power (along with Flametongue Totem and Primalfin Totem) give you a lot of board flood and early board control power, but prevent you from running Bloodlust, so Even Shaman can look a lot like an old Shaman deck, but with a new win condition.
*Odd Mage has been teased a bit with Black Cat, but so far I haven't found that particular card super compelling. I think it could be a useful cycle tool in an Odd Big Spell Mage deck, but there hasn't been enough revealed for me to be confident that the upgraded hero power can get you through the early turns, or that the cycle on the cat is enough to make the deck move.
Developer already said there are only a few cards support this even- odd stuff, and not all class have one. So you dont have to build the even- odd deck if you dont want..
I like cards that promote new archetypes but not when they're force fed to us. Reno Jackson was cool because of his unique design and extremely strong battlecry. It also gave you so many options to build a deck with and that was so cool to think of what tech or what card is better than the other. Then they introduced Kazakus and it went from being a gimmicky, but pretty competitive deck to something almost cookie cutter like. It reminds me of the c'thun and dragon decks, decks that don't take a lot of thought to build and mostly play themselves. I don't like the odd or even card support because it seems like the decks won't have very many options in how it's built, it's looking like the decks will be very one dimensional (at least for the first set, but hey there's still a 100 or so cards left). They also seem very low in power level. Cutting wild growth, swipe, wrath, ultimate infestation, doesn't seem worth it for a 4/8 taunt for 5 mana, and neither does the upgraded hero power. I hope they only have one of these even odd cards for each class, because otherwise it's going to be a bad and you'll just have some useless cards in a set, or it'll be strong but builds itself and plays very boringly. I hope I'm wrong and the deck building options are vast and interesting, but I doubt it.
I think it's probably likely that each class will receive one even/odd card, but probably not any more than that
And then we'll get a few more neutral even/odd cards. This won't be enough cards to make it viable for most classes. Maybe one class will be able to make it work, but theses will be useless cards for the other classes.
That's my prediction.
The success of this odd/even mechanic lies entirely on how good the payoff cards are. So far outside of the two Legendaries, I'm not super optimistic. Giving up even-cost cards in Mage, Druid, and Preist seems incredibly tough to do. Giving up odd-cost in Shaman isn't quite as bad, but there are still a lot of quality cards you're passing the chance to use.
I'll hold out my final thoughts on whether the mechanic will be viable competitively once all the cards are spoiled, but either way I don't necessarily think it is bad design. It is a lot more limiting than the previous deckbuilding restrictive cards like the Kabal cards and the Princes though, which just means the payoff needs to be better for it to be viable.