Hi Guys, this is my first Thread so bear with me while I'm trying to explain my point.
Lately I've been doing some research work because of the standard Rotation in about a month. While discussing in different forums about ice block and divine favor, I came across a mechanic that has been going under the radar a little bit: Deathrattles. To explain my Problem here we need to go back to the times of gvg. Back then there existed a lot of Powerful cards, but two of them (maybe a couple more but these are some big issues) had something in common that i never really noticed. Slyvanas and Dr. Boom. Both of these minions have or generate Deathrattle effects that you really want to trigger. Most parts of these minions are not about the body but more about the effect. Voidcaller also belongs into this section but as he requires more synergy (Mal'Ganis) i decided to not put the focus on him as much. At least yet. Until this point in the game a deathrattle was considered to be good if it made a minion stick on the board (remember the old yeti vs shredder discussion or harvest golem) because these would sasve you after having your threads removed, but sylvanas and boom generated a thread in letting those minions die, which resulted in a paradox where you had to decide if you want to kill off the thread and take attack damage or kill it and take effect damage. In the following years nothing really happened in that direction (besides Umbra) until KnC rolled out. New cards were introduced: Cube, lackey, vanguard. KfT already got some new stuff out like Vryghoul or mountainfire or skelemancer but they never really found their spot in the meta; but now these new cards were able to completely wrap the meta around them. And why? Because of 2 things: their deathrattles, but also the ability to trigger their deathrattles on purpose. Umbra and dark pact, as well as sacrificial pact with voidcaller suddenly enabled powerfull combos for up to 25 damage or a wall of 9/27 taunt. Don't get me wrong here i think cards like Umbra pacts or play dead to enrich the game but with the currently printed cards Blizzard moves on very dangerous terrain. Sylvanas had to be forced to the HoF to prevent her from disrupting the meta with its triggers but Blizzard did not learn from that. Cheating out demons from your deck (which is way stronger than from your hand e.g. with voidcaller) is incredibly strong and can overwhelm an oponent with ease. Luckily cards like skelemancer aren't abusable in this manner, but if blizzard wanted to print cards that give taunt (better than protector or defender) these cards could become really powerfull as well. meanwhile vanguards move on a small edge to be powerfull. If you can cheat them out e.g. with a kobold illusionist and get a lich king t5 this is still amazing. I would definitely like to see more cards like Umbra and Pact as they can be used in a both skillfull and powerfull way, but not in a way that gives you (or your oponent) such a huge advantage all over. Also i want to point out seeping oozeling. A card that sees almost no play because of its bad stats. Luckily hunter doesn't have things like obsidian statue otherwise it would be run in every hunter deck. but whatsoever, his mechanic is very cool but could also be heavily abused if blizzard goes the wrong way towards more intentionally triggered deathrattles. Furthermore There is a quote from one of the game designers that oozeling was planned as 5 mana with the same stats but was considered too powerfull, which is probably true as a wild n'zoth hunter could cheat out an additional sylvanas if he wasn't able to topdeck the original one, so it would basically be a summon a random minion with a good deathrattle and good stats for its costs and that could also end up just like lackey in the end. Last card I want to mention is unearthed raptor. This card created its own archetype by being able to copy a strong deathrattle to a decent body for its costs, especially strong when played with barnes. It was a deck that you could easily bring to legend, and the same thing would happen to oozeling if it was decent stated, because it has an advantage over raptor: you dont need a minion in play.
So what do you think? Are these Deathrattle effects a Problem in Hearthstone? For me they defintely slowly move into a red zone.
I feel like you are talking about more like highroll effects and not the deathrattle ones. For example Naga decks are doing it too. Big Priest is not around deathrattles but rather mana cheat something really powerfull. The problem here is that its not happening on late game where all classes are able somehow deal with it. Its happening even on turns 3-4 (eg Egg Hunter in Wild). It is not a problem of deathrattle cards. It is a problem of mana cheating. I can easily give give an example: In my Reno Mage vs Giantlock matchup where my opponent could't cheat out voidcaller and Naga(God bless polymorph effects xD ) I won really easily. Because A) He wasn't able to cheat out his powerfull stuff early B) As I dragged him to the late game where I have more mana, I can use more value cards than him and more powerfull boardclears.
Deathrattle isn't really a problem in my opinion. It's actually FAR declined from the Naxx days. I enjoy deathrattle effects too. I find them more enjoyable than all of the random RNG effects!
I am not trying to say that this is an overpowered mechanic i just want to point out the potential as well as dangers and designing restrictions these specific types of deathrattles cause. I am not talking about deathrattle in general.
Moreover i wouldn't consider lackey a highroll card.
Also I am not saying that there aren't any bigger Problems i am just pointing out that this one kind of went under the radar.
I haven't tried it in a while but I made a Dragon Hunter deck with only Deathwing Dragonlord for the Deathrattle. If they couldn't stop the Oozling's deathrattle, I usually got 3-5 Dragons on board on turns 6-8. I had to not draw my one Deathrattle card though.
yes the text got a bit out of hand there but i wanted to make my point clear and describe the entire problem so im sorry for that.
It is not my first post in a hearthstone forum tho but my first one on heartpwn and also the first one that had so much content.
I actually think i can't edit it anymore.
Thanks for your opinion tho.
Well, you made it anything but clear with that gigantic wall of text :)
If you are having problems with editing your posts, click Edit > Cancel > Edit (again). The edits r f*** up lately, so this is a bit of a go-around ;-)
I stopped reading on the second full page wall of text. Try breaking into paragraphs, it’s hard to read.
On topic more, Deathrattle is a great mechanic that can be more powerful than a battlecry because of the reaction time an opponent generally gets. It’s vulnerable to silence and your opponent can often decide the best way to trigger it. Nothing wrong with the mechanic as a whole.
The gist of what he is saying is that the devs are moving the power of cards into deathrattle and it is a slippery slope because intentionally triggering one is easy (Dark Pact). I tend to agree, but think the problem should be mitigated by fighting fire with fire. Allow people to steal deathrattles or suppress them - every strategy should, in theory, expose one to risk. If I flood the board with tokens, I get nailed by AoE. I drop some huge minion, it gets removed by a spell. No real risk to plopping down Sylvannas Windrunner and using Dark Pact, I get healed and a free minion while they watch.
Hi Guys, this is my first Thread so bear with me while I'm trying to explain my point.
Lately I've been doing some research work because of the standard Rotation in about a month. While discussing in different forums about ice block and divine favor, I came across a mechanic that has been going under the radar a little bit: Deathrattles. To explain my Problem here we need to go back to the times of gvg. Back then there existed a lot of Powerful cards, but two of them (maybe a couple more but these are some big issues) had something in common that i never really noticed. Slyvanas and Dr. Boom. Both of these minions have or generate Deathrattle effects that you really want to trigger. Most parts of these minions are not about the body but more about the effect. Voidcaller also belongs into this section but as he requires more synergy (Mal'Ganis) i decided to not put the focus on him as much. At least yet. Until this point in the game a deathrattle was considered to be good if it made a minion stick on the board (remember the old yeti vs shredder discussion or harvest golem) because these would sasve you after having your threads removed, but sylvanas and boom generated a thread in letting those minions die, which resulted in a paradox where you had to decide if you want to kill off the thread and take attack damage or kill it and take effect damage. In the following years nothing really happened in that direction (besides Umbra) until KnC rolled out. New cards were introduced: Cube, lackey, vanguard. KfT already got some new stuff out like Vryghoul or mountainfire or skelemancer but they never really found their spot in the meta; but now these new cards were able to completely wrap the meta around them. And why? Because of 2 things: their deathrattles, but also the ability to trigger their deathrattles on purpose. Umbra and dark pact, as well as sacrificial pact with voidcaller suddenly enabled powerfull combos for up to 25 damage or a wall of 9/27 taunt. Don't get me wrong here i think cards like Umbra pacts or play dead to enrich the game but with the currently printed cards Blizzard moves on very dangerous terrain. Sylvanas had to be forced to the HoF to prevent her from disrupting the meta with its triggers but Blizzard did not learn from that. Cheating out demons from your deck (which is way stronger than from your hand e.g. with voidcaller) is incredibly strong and can overwhelm an oponent with ease. Luckily cards like skelemancer aren't abusable in this manner, but if blizzard wanted to print cards that give taunt (better than protector or defender) these cards could become really powerfull as well. meanwhile vanguards move on a small edge to be powerfull. If you can cheat them out e.g. with a kobold illusionist and get a lich king t5 this is still amazing. I would definitely like to see more cards like Umbra and Pact as they can be used in a both skillfull and powerfull way, but not in a way that gives you (or your oponent) such a huge advantage all over. Also i want to point out seeping oozeling. A card that sees almost no play because of its bad stats. Luckily hunter doesn't have things like obsidian statue otherwise it would be run in every hunter deck. but whatsoever, his mechanic is very cool but could also be heavily abused if blizzard goes the wrong way towards more intentionally triggered deathrattles. Furthermore There is a quote from one of the game designers that oozeling was planned as 5 mana with the same stats but was considered too powerfull, which is probably true as a wild n'zoth hunter could cheat out an additional sylvanas if he wasn't able to topdeck the original one, so it would basically be a summon a random minion with a good deathrattle and good stats for its costs and that could also end up just like lackey in the end. Last card I want to mention is unearthed raptor. This card created its own archetype by being able to copy a strong deathrattle to a decent body for its costs, especially strong when played with barnes. It was a deck that you could easily bring to legend, and the same thing would happen to oozeling if it was decent stated, because it has an advantage over raptor: you dont need a minion in play.
So what do you think? Are these Deathrattle effects a Problem in Hearthstone? For me they defintely slowly move into a red zone.
Thanks for your ideas and thoughts in advance,
JackSwallow
???
You joined the site a year ago, and your first post is a wall of text?
Re-format it, and add a TLDR.
yes the text got a bit out of hand there but i wanted to make my point clear and describe the entire problem so im sorry for that.
It is not my first post in a hearthstone forum tho but my first one on heartpwn and also the first one that had so much content.
I actually think i can't edit it anymore.
Thanks for your opinion tho.
No.., I don't see a problem, people and designers, just have to be a little more creative in how to deal with the deathrattles.
Example how people use it to their own advantage. Like damage deathrattle help clearing the board. Or stealing their effects for you.
I feel like you are talking about more like highroll effects and not the deathrattle ones. For example Naga decks are doing it too. Big Priest is not around deathrattles but rather mana cheat something really powerfull. The problem here is that its not happening on late game where all classes are able somehow deal with it. Its happening even on turns 3-4 (eg Egg Hunter in Wild). It is not a problem of deathrattle cards. It is a problem of mana cheating. I can easily give give an example: In my Reno Mage vs Giantlock matchup where my opponent could't cheat out voidcaller and Naga(God bless polymorph effects xD ) I won really easily. Because A) He wasn't able to cheat out his powerfull stuff early B) As I dragged him to the late game where I have more mana, I can use more value cards than him and more powerfull boardclears.
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
Deathrattle isn't really a problem in my opinion. It's actually FAR declined from the Naxx days. I enjoy deathrattle effects too. I find them more enjoyable than all of the random RNG effects!
I am not trying to say that this is an overpowered mechanic i just want to point out the potential as well as dangers and designing restrictions these specific types of deathrattles cause. I am not talking about deathrattle in general.
Moreover i wouldn't consider lackey a highroll card.
Also I am not saying that there aren't any bigger Problems i am just pointing out that this one kind of went under the radar.
It doesnt went under of radar. I'd say Blizzard is doing some not so logical things from time to time
Moving into https://outof.cards/members/firepaladinhs/decks
I haven't tried it in a while but I made a Dragon Hunter deck with only Deathwing Dragonlord for the Deathrattle. If they couldn't stop the Oozling's deathrattle, I usually got 3-5 Dragons on board on turns 6-8. I had to not draw my one Deathrattle card though.
This space is intentionally blank.
It's a bit of a problem in wild over time, maybe. Standard will be fine as it's easy enough to counter if it gets out of hand.
Look at this thing and let me know what you think!
wrong thread .... my bad ....
Turn 7 after drawing Seeping Oozling or whatever, I made a board like this.
This space is intentionally blank.
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I stopped reading on the second full page wall of text. Try breaking into paragraphs, it’s hard to read.
On topic more, Deathrattle is a great mechanic that can be more powerful than a battlecry because of the reaction time an opponent generally gets. It’s vulnerable to silence and your opponent can often decide the best way to trigger it. Nothing wrong with the mechanic as a whole.
The gist of what he is saying is that the devs are moving the power of cards into deathrattle and it is a slippery slope because intentionally triggering one is easy (Dark Pact). I tend to agree, but think the problem should be mitigated by fighting fire with fire. Allow people to steal deathrattles or suppress them - every strategy should, in theory, expose one to risk. If I flood the board with tokens, I get nailed by AoE. I drop some huge minion, it gets removed by a spell. No real risk to plopping down Sylvannas Windrunner and using Dark Pact, I get healed and a free minion while they watch.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.