I took a break when the Rexxar fiasco happened, decided to come back when I'd heard that they are going to update Rexxar to work as he should have in the beginning. Dunno if it's just because I came back with new eyes and a fresh mindset or what, but I'm seriously asking the title just looking over the card lists.
Let's start from the top:
- [b]Both classes love Value minions.[/b] Where as Paladin favors sticky minions with added effects, Shaman likes playing bigger minions for cheaper. Both of these are a form of value, but apart from a notable standout or two (Earth Elemental, FWF), I don't see why I would want to play anything in Shaman over Paladin solely because the Overload mechanic screws over your next turn. Both's standout two drops, Shielded Minibot and Totem Golem, trade with each other but one throws you off curve and the other doesn't. This would be fine if Overload was better utilized, but other than Tunnel Trogg (Which was overboard), Snowfury Giant and Sapphire Spellstone, there's no real reason to put up with Overload, no "Chargin mah lazor" that makes it worth it. This is unlike Shielded Minibot which synergizes with a lot of paladin's cards, but doesn't require it to be good and doesn't take away your next turn to be as good as it is.
- [b]Both have healing effects with (now) poor face burn tools[/b]. With Crackle, Lightning Bolt, Lava Burst, and Lava Shock, Shaman could reach over the battlefield and kill his opponent with ease if he could get him low enough. This compared really favorably to Paladin whose damage was either highly random (Holy Wrath and Avenging Wrath) or overcosted (Hammer of Wrath (Wrath wrath wrath wrath)), but this was ok because of Lay on Hands, Forbidden Healing, and Holy Light were vastly better healing tools than anything Shaman had. Now, Shaman has burn that can't target face, randomized healing, and more healing than damage.
- [b]Both like to buff minions, but Paladin does it better.[/b] Paladin has the ability to give tons of minions divine shield, has Blessing of Kings and Spikeridge steed, not to mention the new and improved buffs that make it possible to get Galvidon fast like Potion of Heroism. While Shaman does have Bloodlust and Flametongue Totem, these are the only great minion buffs shaman has; Cryostasis never should have seen the light of day and Evolve effects turn your minions into other minions. Let's not even get into Totemic Might, Primal Infusion, and Ancestral Healing, which, while decent if you can get them to work, don't replace themselves because.....
- [b]Paladin's actually have card advantage tools.[/b] Blessing of Wisdom, Divine Favor, Small-Time Recruits, Solemn Vigil, Lay on Hands.... These vary in effectiveness, but you can't say they aren't there and usable. Shaman has Ancestral Knowledge, Manatide Totem and Farsight, which give you two cards, maybe two cards, and one card. That's about all you need to say on this, since card advantage is card advantage; he who draws more cards *probably* is going to win the game.
- [b]Shaman is a random class, Paladin isn't.[/b] Shaman's damage is random, Shaman's HP is random, Evolve is random, random random random. When I play any card in Paladin I either know exactly what's going to happen or at the very least can pick what I need to happen. If you randomly picked 5 cards in Wild Shaman, I guarantee you that at least 3 of them will have the word "random" or variable numbers in them. Evolve will either upgrade my 3 mana 3/3 into a 4 mana 7/7 or a 4 mana 1/1.
- [b]Both are Murloc classes, Paladin does it better.[/b]
- [b]Paladin has an actual direction, Shaman doesn't.[/b] Paladin has Murlocs, Silver Hand Recruits, Healing, Buffs, Card Draw, and Secrets. Say what you want about effectiveness, but that's what you've got. Shaman has.... Deathrattle, Totems, Overload, Murlocs, Healing, Buffs, Freeze, Evolve, Elementals, Random, Battlecry, and Spells. That's a lot of different directions to be taken to at once, and it absolutely shows in the cards Shaman gets (Freeze shaman especially....).
I don't know, it's just that whenever I play a Shaman deck now and then go play a Paladin deck, the paladin deck does everything the shaman deck is trying to do, but better. Paladin can control, shaman hopes his AOE does enough to the right target. Paladin aggros, Shaman hopes he Randoms into a stronger minion than a weaker one. Paladin Midranges, Shaman feels bad the moment you drop the Elemental Chain.
I want my Aggro-Midrange shaman back. Not as faceroll or as stupid as before, but where I throw down giant threat after giant threat and tell them they have to stop me. I want to break my arm punching out Cthulhu, because THAT'S when Shaman is most fun to play. I want to play Malygos Combo Shaman because there's so much burn, but every Shaman spell that comes out these days is "Target Minion"; Mage gets pretty much unlimited burn spells, why can't the other WoW ranged caster?
Shaman needs a direction, and it needs one badly. As someone whose played quite a bit of Paladin and Shaman (I have 95% of Shaman cards in my collection; all I'm missing are K&C legendaries and The Mistspeaker), before I could go back and forth as to if I wanted to play aggro-midrange or control midrange. Now I just ask myself why I'm not playing Paladin whenever I play Shaman.
Because shaman has got really bad cards for last 3 expansions =P It's a boardcentric class that literally has not got a good earlygame minion since tunnel trogg (which was annoying as that turned the class into a facefest). Shaman has pretty much always been a niche class until it got totem golem in TGT which actually gave it possibility to contest early board and get board control. As you said even then paladin had their 2 drop which traded into it without overload.
If you look what earlygame minions we have got in the past year, we have 1mana 2/1 with spell immunity yay, 3 and I repeat THREE different 2 mana 1/1s that do nothing in earlygame (even the totem creating one is pretty useless currently as they can freely trade into that totem, at best it's 2 mana 1/1 + 1/1...) and 2 mana 2/2 freeze.
They have every expansion given shaman different direction and all of those have failed (well evolve kinda works but that is imo RNG bs and mostly about broken combo with doppelgangster) and I suspect the main reason is that they are too afraid to give shaman earlygame anymore after people raged about tunnel trogg ( which is ironic imo as they keep on giving to priest broken ass cards even though the class has been faring well for over a year. Has any other class gotten such stat-strong minions with really strong effect like Draconid Operative?)
The issue is also like Neirea mentioned on value town yesterday, that Flamethoung totem is their best 2 drop and usually every successful deck includes it. So they need a strong 1 or 2 drop .( if they get both ,we know what can happen) . If the meta is full of t1 decks with good aoe or silence, Shaman will always have a hard time.
So to respond to the topic,why Shaman over Paladin.... well in this meta there is almost no argument that speaks for Shaman over Pally . Generally speaking they have with Flamethoung Tomtem and Bloodlust a more efficient gameplan.
Shaman has Evolve, better removal, better AoE, as you said more burst damage, elemental synergies, better mech decks. They are different classes and your individual comparisons are pointless. Why not ask why one would play Shaman over Warlock as well?
Shaman has Evolve, better removal, better AoE, as you said more burst damage, elemental synergies, better mech decks. They are different classes and your individual comparisons are pointless. Why not ask why one would play Shaman over Warlock as well?
May be you mean shaman has random evolve, random and expensive AOE, useless synergies and many unplayable decks?
Shaman is too heterogeneous for be able create stable non-agro deck in current powerlevel.
Shaman has Evolve, better removal, better AoE, as you said more burst damage, elemental synergies, better mech decks. They are different classes and your individual comparisons are pointless. Why not ask why one would play Shaman over Warlock as well?
You are of course right, but not totally right. If you were we would see more shamans in play (for myself over last two months I've seen one). Also this comprasion to Warlock is missed, because Warlock decks are better than shammy's for same reason as pally decks are better.
I never understood why no one cares that Paladin can always be aggro and everytime shaman gets an aggro deck the class gets nerfed into the ground. It is a board centric class with no way to get the board early game, and not enough sticky minions to keep it late/mid game. Card draw would be nice, recruiting 3 minions would be great, but lets just keep letting pally be tier 1 and shaman can stay in the basement shaman tier.
Shaman has Evolve, better removal, better AoE, as you said more burst damage, elemental synergies, better mech decks. They are different classes and your individual comparisons are pointless. Why not ask why one would play Shaman over Warlock as well?
You are of course right, but not totally right. If you were we would see more shamans in play (for myself over last two months I've seen one). Also this comprasion to Warlock is missed, because Warlock decks are better than shammy's for same reason as pally decks are better.
No, they're better for completely different reasons and can't be compared, which is why there are complaints about both Warlocks being OP and Shamans being unplayable, but there's no one comparing them to each other, and the reasons for that are why those comparisons shouldn't be made between Paladins and Shamans either.
May be you mean shaman has random evolve, random and expensive AOE, useless synergies and many unplayable decks?
Your attacks with absolute adjectives do nothing to disprove the comparatives of my comment. I don't disagree with any of that, but their expensive AoE is still better than what Paladin has (which is partly why N'Zoth Shaman was briefly a top tier deck last summer in Wild). Yes, Shaman is bad currently, I'm not claiming otherwise, but the comparison to Paladin is still stupid.
Btw, randomness is a feature, not a bad thing, and aggro decks are decks.
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Ironically Paladin can play Quest Hunter without the Quest and it's decent.
Game goes through various themes, after awhile they get the hint and move onto something else. In the mid-Shaman era everything was just raw stats. In Un'goro is was too heavy on discover / generating cards from outside of decks. Now it's all about cheating mana. Shaman isn't so hot at that; they've always been able to "cheat" mana but pay up the next turn. Recruit, ramp, big mechanics aren't where Shaman has gotten any love.
Shaman got legit nothing from the last expansions except elementals, which are good but inconsistent. Blizzard will have to do something next expansion because their only good cards right now (all the jade stuff and evolve) are rotating out
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I took a break when the Rexxar fiasco happened, decided to come back when I'd heard that they are going to update Rexxar to work as he should have in the beginning. Dunno if it's just because I came back with new eyes and a fresh mindset or what, but I'm seriously asking the title just looking over the card lists.
Let's start from the top:
- [b]Both classes love Value minions.[/b] Where as Paladin favors sticky minions with added effects, Shaman likes playing bigger minions for cheaper. Both of these are a form of value, but apart from a notable standout or two (Earth Elemental, FWF), I don't see why I would want to play anything in Shaman over Paladin solely because the Overload mechanic screws over your next turn. Both's standout two drops, Shielded Minibot and Totem Golem, trade with each other but one throws you off curve and the other doesn't. This would be fine if Overload was better utilized, but other than Tunnel Trogg (Which was overboard), Snowfury Giant and Sapphire Spellstone, there's no real reason to put up with Overload, no "Chargin mah lazor" that makes it worth it. This is unlike Shielded Minibot which synergizes with a lot of paladin's cards, but doesn't require it to be good and doesn't take away your next turn to be as good as it is.
- [b]Both have healing effects with (now) poor face burn tools[/b]. With Crackle, Lightning Bolt, Lava Burst, and Lava Shock, Shaman could reach over the battlefield and kill his opponent with ease if he could get him low enough. This compared really favorably to Paladin whose damage was either highly random (Holy Wrath and Avenging Wrath) or overcosted (Hammer of Wrath (Wrath wrath wrath wrath)), but this was ok because of Lay on Hands, Forbidden Healing, and Holy Light were vastly better healing tools than anything Shaman had. Now, Shaman has burn that can't target face, randomized healing, and more healing than damage.
- [b]Both like to buff minions, but Paladin does it better.[/b] Paladin has the ability to give tons of minions divine shield, has Blessing of Kings and Spikeridge steed, not to mention the new and improved buffs that make it possible to get Galvidon fast like Potion of Heroism. While Shaman does have Bloodlust and Flametongue Totem, these are the only great minion buffs shaman has; Cryostasis never should have seen the light of day and Evolve effects turn your minions into other minions. Let's not even get into Totemic Might, Primal Infusion, and Ancestral Healing, which, while decent if you can get them to work, don't replace themselves because.....
- [b]Paladin's actually have card advantage tools.[/b] Blessing of Wisdom, Divine Favor, Small-Time Recruits, Solemn Vigil, Lay on Hands.... These vary in effectiveness, but you can't say they aren't there and usable. Shaman has Ancestral Knowledge, Manatide Totem and Farsight, which give you two cards, maybe two cards, and one card. That's about all you need to say on this, since card advantage is card advantage; he who draws more cards *probably* is going to win the game.
- [b]Shaman is a random class, Paladin isn't.[/b] Shaman's damage is random, Shaman's HP is random, Evolve is random, random random random. When I play any card in Paladin I either know exactly what's going to happen or at the very least can pick what I need to happen. If you randomly picked 5 cards in Wild Shaman, I guarantee you that at least 3 of them will have the word "random" or variable numbers in them. Evolve will either upgrade my 3 mana 3/3 into a 4 mana 7/7 or a 4 mana 1/1.
- [b]Both are Murloc classes, Paladin does it better.[/b]
- [b]Paladin has an actual direction, Shaman doesn't.[/b] Paladin has Murlocs, Silver Hand Recruits, Healing, Buffs, Card Draw, and Secrets. Say what you want about effectiveness, but that's what you've got. Shaman has.... Deathrattle, Totems, Overload, Murlocs, Healing, Buffs, Freeze, Evolve, Elementals, Random, Battlecry, and Spells. That's a lot of different directions to be taken to at once, and it absolutely shows in the cards Shaman gets (Freeze shaman especially....).
I don't know, it's just that whenever I play a Shaman deck now and then go play a Paladin deck, the paladin deck does everything the shaman deck is trying to do, but better. Paladin can control, shaman hopes his AOE does enough to the right target. Paladin aggros, Shaman hopes he Randoms into a stronger minion than a weaker one. Paladin Midranges, Shaman feels bad the moment you drop the Elemental Chain.
I want my Aggro-Midrange shaman back. Not as faceroll or as stupid as before, but where I throw down giant threat after giant threat and tell them they have to stop me. I want to break my arm punching out Cthulhu, because THAT'S when Shaman is most fun to play. I want to play Malygos Combo Shaman because there's so much burn, but every Shaman spell that comes out these days is "Target Minion"; Mage gets pretty much unlimited burn spells, why can't the other WoW ranged caster?
Shaman needs a direction, and it needs one badly. As someone whose played quite a bit of Paladin and Shaman (I have 95% of Shaman cards in my collection; all I'm missing are K&C legendaries and The Mistspeaker), before I could go back and forth as to if I wanted to play aggro-midrange or control midrange. Now I just ask myself why I'm not playing Paladin whenever I play Shaman.
Because shaman has got really bad cards for last 3 expansions =P It's a boardcentric class that literally has not got a good earlygame minion since tunnel trogg (which was annoying as that turned the class into a facefest). Shaman has pretty much always been a niche class until it got totem golem in TGT which actually gave it possibility to contest early board and get board control. As you said even then paladin had their 2 drop which traded into it without overload.
If you look what earlygame minions we have got in the past year, we have 1mana 2/1 with spell immunity yay, 3 and I repeat THREE different 2 mana 1/1s that do nothing in earlygame (even the totem creating one is pretty useless currently as they can freely trade into that totem, at best it's 2 mana 1/1 + 1/1...) and 2 mana 2/2 freeze.
They have every expansion given shaman different direction and all of those have failed (well evolve kinda works but that is imo RNG bs and mostly about broken combo with doppelgangster) and I suspect the main reason is that they are too afraid to give shaman earlygame anymore after people raged about tunnel trogg ( which is ironic imo as they keep on giving to priest broken ass cards even though the class has been faring well for over a year. Has any other class gotten such stat-strong minions with really strong effect like Draconid Operative?)
Surprise!
The issue is also like Neirea mentioned on value town yesterday, that Flamethoung totem is their best 2 drop and usually every successful deck includes it. So they need a strong 1 or 2 drop .( if they get both ,we know what can happen) . If the meta is full of t1 decks with good aoe or silence, Shaman will always have a hard time.
So to respond to the topic,why Shaman over Paladin.... well in this meta there is almost no argument that speaks for Shaman over Pally . Generally speaking they have with Flamethoung Tomtem and Bloodlust a more efficient gameplan.
Shaman is garbage now because mid range was too OP in the last expansion
Shaman has Evolve, better removal, better AoE, as you said more burst damage, elemental synergies, better mech decks. They are different classes and your individual comparisons are pointless. Why not ask why one would play Shaman over Warlock as well?
Preach!
I never understood why no one cares that Paladin can always be aggro and everytime shaman gets an aggro deck the class gets nerfed into the ground. It is a board centric class with no way to get the board early game, and not enough sticky minions to keep it late/mid game. Card draw would be nice, recruiting 3 minions would be great, but lets just keep letting pally be tier 1 and shaman can stay in the basement shaman tier.
Shaman doesn't even exist at this point.
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Ugh... Freaking hunter mains.
Let me give it a shot;
U NO LIKE THINK, U PLAY HUNTR, U PLAY PALLY. FACE FACE FACE ALL DAY LONG! NOOBZ DIE. HAHAHA! BIG FUN!
LIKE THINK? LIKE PLAN? (LIKE LOSE HOLE BUNCH?) PLAY SHAMMINS. KK?
Thrall rules! (Also, fuck Morgl.)
Ironically Paladin can play Quest Hunter without the Quest and it's decent.
Game goes through various themes, after awhile they get the hint and move onto something else. In the mid-Shaman era everything was just raw stats. In Un'goro is was too heavy on discover / generating cards from outside of decks. Now it's all about cheating mana. Shaman isn't so hot at that; they've always been able to "cheat" mana but pay up the next turn. Recruit, ramp, big mechanics aren't where Shaman has gotten any love.
CCGing since '98.
Shaman got legit nothing from the last expansions except elementals, which are good but inconsistent. Blizzard will have to do something next expansion because their only good cards right now (all the jade stuff and evolve) are rotating out