So, recently I've seen multiple topics touching on the power level of Warlock post-nerfs. I feel like many people are vastly overestimating the whole situation and I'll give you a couple of my thoughts below. Now, I might be wrong on a couple of those, but..anyway.
You can tech against it very efficiently.
The meta will inevitably slow down, meaning there's potential for other combo oriented decks or attrition decks to give it a hard time.
According to Mike, it's the 12th best deck in the game. This can be taken with a grain of salt. Though I'm willing to trust their data. This means that there are probably decks that don't see much play with a decent winrate against it.
Both Big Priest and Tempo Mage (as already pointed out below) have decent match-ups against warlocks.
Some have said Mill rogue might make a comeback too. Considering the meta will slow down, you can further refine it and maybe even have success with it. No one can say for sure what will happen.
Now, a while back Murloc Paladin was widely regarded as the best deck in the game, and we saw people running Hungry Crabs all over the place. Same thing applies here, with the exception being Hungry Crab was really not efficient to run outside of that one matchup, whereas Silence and Weapon destruction can be decent in a lot of matchups. You're sacrificing two deck slots to improve your match-up against the best deck in the game (allegedly, if post-nerf works out the way we think it is).
I really don't understand the panic that's been taking over the community. I'm not saying Cubelock won't be the best deck in the game or anything like that. I'm saying you can dedicate 2-3 deck slots in order to beat it, quite efficiently at that. I feel like many slower decks will start popping up as well, ones that have good matchups against Warlocks.
For instance, I'm currently sitting at 73 percent winrate (or something along the lines, can't see now cause I'm at work) against Cubelocks/Control locks with Midrange Paladin. I'm talking about the slower version we saw a couple of months ago, with equality, tirion, consecs etcs. I've also had success with the Recruit Hunter, believe it or not. That goes to show that there is definitely hope.
What are your thoughts on the whole thing. Do you have more reasons as to why one should not be worried about cubelock. Feel free to elaborate or argue with me too. It can only lead to positive things. :)
Combo decks are good against Cubelock because it's not fast enough. Call to Arms alone wins games sometimes. And the most disgusting deck of the game (Big Priest) usually destroys Warlock too. Tempo Mage seems to be a good choice, because it has a bad matchup against other aggro decks which will be nerfed soon.
And as many have said, Cubelock/Control Warlock is a high skill cap deck (probably the second to Mill Rogue currently) so the more bad players craft it, the easier it will be to generally beat it. And there are quite a few combos you can pull out on turn 5 stronger than Lackey+Dark Pact.
Combo decks are good against Cubelock because it's not fast enough. Call to Arms alone wins games sometimes. And the most disgusting deck of the game (Big Priest) usually destroys Warlock too. Tempo Mage seems to be a good choice, because it has a bad matchup against other aggro decks which will be nerfed soon.
And as many have said, Cubelock/Control Warlock is a high skill cap deck (probably the second to Mill Rogue currently) so the more bad players craft it, the easier it will be to generally beat it. And there are quite a few combos you can pull out on turn 5 stronger than Lackey+Dark Pact.
Yep. Good points. Big Priest could very well return along with Tempo Mage. The problem is, the majority of players will still complain about those two decks being at the top. I'm not saying it's the perfect scenario, but those two decks have good matchups against cubelock. Control lock is a bit of a different story here, because they have more tools to clear the board and N'zoth to refill at the end.
I am more worried by the fall of Tempo Rogue, but i am pretty sure the nerfs won't crown a new meta tyrant from Razakus to Cubelock.
Well, we don't know if Tempo Rogue will truly fall. The reason why I'm saying this, is that if Elemental (Blaze) Rogue can make a return while utilizing many of the new cards, we could still see it at the top of Tier 2/Bottom Tier 1.
I agree on the crowning part too. I feel like unexpected archetypes will pop up.
The rotation+new expansion will change everything anyway, that's the other reason I don't understand this mass hysteria. Cubelock is not even nearly as oppressive as Razakus has been, and its win condition can't be replaced with a coin toss. People will literally complain about everything. The game is in a healthy state right now and some fail to understand that there has to be a strongest deck (which Cubelock is far from, according to all the meta sites and Blizzard itself). After the nerf announcement, I saw so many "hurr durr why didn't they nerf this and that" "omg Warlock Tier -4 300% winrate now"... I mean for God's sake, learn how this game works. Blizzard isn't the brightest candle on the cake considering nerfs, that's true, but either you leave the game or you accept it and wait until the nerf comes to see what happens instead of acting like the apocalypse is coming tomorrow.
The rotation+new expansion will change everything anyway, that's the other reason I don't understand this mass hysteria. Cubelock is not even nearly as oppressive as Razakus has been, and its win condition can't be replaced with a coin toss. People will literally complain about everything. The game is in a healthy state right now and some fail to understand that there has to be a strongest deck (which Cubelock is far from, according to all the meta sites and Blizzard itself). After the nerf announcement, I saw so many "hurr durr why didn't they nerf this and that" "omg Warlock Tier -4 300% winrate now"... I mean for God's sake, learn how this game works. Blizzard isn't the brightest candle on the cake considering nerfs, that's true, but either you leave the game or you accept it and wait until the nerf comes to see what happens instead of acting like the apocalypse is coming tomorrow?
People need something to cry about constantly. Now since they got what they desired from Blizz with Raza and Patches nerf they will need another victim. So in the next year or so you can expect warlock nerfs thats for sure. The problem is that majority of players wont consider playing something like exodia mage or some similar bullshit because its complex and you realy need to wigle your ass untill you get your combo in order to survive. It's interesting how 2 decks that everyon have in mind are 2 decks that are feasiest to play! Big priest and tempo mage, LIKE WHAT THE FUCK, 4 year olds could just click the cards with those decks and win from time to time! Were is the fun in that? So my point is eventualy, when anything gets strong enough that in order to win against it you have to consider 'Harder' decks,community will start crying and eventualy Blizz will respond. That way you can be certan every single powerfull and interesting thing will get fucked. So yeah i am sorry about Warlocks this time. This is an interesting deck they have that will be fucked in some future.
Bloodreaver Gul'dan limits design? How is that? It's N'zoth without a body and brings back demons. I dont see anything wrong with that card. Its powerfull and its fun. Every single dk has potential to be broken. You just need the right meta for it. And my honest opinion is that Doomguard wont see Hall of fame, not even close. Why? Yes you can cheat him out now, and that bypasses his downside but Blizz wanted to make a card that will allow you to do just that. Doomguard will be going strong in standard for some time that's my guest and i am all for it! Finally a good use for that card and bunch of people wants it out right away LOL!
Bloodreaver is fine. It's a 10 mana card. It needs to be very powerful and able to introduce swings at that point. I don't think it has ever been the problem. Unless you're talking about bringing back 7 Doomguards, then yes, I can see how one can perceive that as a problem. :D
While I do not trust rage posters claiming to have faced the 'same deck X amount of times in a row', I also don't trust Mike Donais or any Hearthstone dev for that matter. His argument holds no water. It is the equivalent of someone asking you if you are free and you asking them to hold on a minute while you check your journal made of thin air. Posting stats would go a long way for both parties to prove the legitimacy of their argument.
For me this is not about cubelock or control warlock being a strong meta defining deck. It's about the premise of cheating the mana curve. That is extremely toxic for the game and seriously compromises the longevity of hearthstone.
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Secret Mage/Burn Mage and Big Priest are legitimate counters. I still feel like the power level of Lackey is too high, but that's a complaint for another day.
I also think we will find some other control decks become viable since they don't auto-lose to Razakus anymore. Maybe Warrior has something going on. Big Spell mage has tools. Taunt-Tiger Druid? (jk)
But make no mistake, I think that Warlock is the deck to beat. Some deck almost always centralizes the metagame.
While I do not trust rage posters claiming to have faced the 'same deck X amount of times in a row', I also don't trust Mike Donais or any Hearthstone dev for that matter. His argument holds no water. It is the equivalent of someone asking you if you are free and you asking them to hold on a minute while you check your journal made of thin air. Posting stats would go a long way for both parties to prove the legitimacy of their argument.
For me this is not about cubelock or control warlock being a strong meta defining deck. It's about the premise of cheating the mana curve. That is extremely toxic for the game and seriously compromises the longevity of hearthstone.
His argument actually holds a ton of water. You just choose to yell FAKE NEWS!
I think when we talk about worrying about cubelock it should be broadened to worrying about control lock. Cubelock surged in popularity because it was a little more effective against razakus but now that raza is nerfed, we could see more regular control locks. That deck is probably as scary because they have rin for control and the same voidlords against aggro.
Totally agree. I think the panic over the predicted Warlock Period of Dominance is highly exaggerated due to the fact that it's a class that feels terrible to lose to.
Seeing double doomlocks vomit out of a cube that was just sacrificed for 8 health is a helpless feeling when you don't have any counters. When you lose to that you feel cheated to a degree; when Hearthstone is at its worst, it's usually because you lost to a play that you had no chance to counter or was fueled by a high amount of RNG. Cubelock has a bit of both.
That said, I believe the data that Mike must be seeing (although I'd love to have it in better context) and if a ton more people start trying to pilot that deck, I think we'll see the meta shift to a counter and suddenly find it starting to normalize. Give it time; all will be well.
While I do not trust rage posters claiming to have faced the 'same deck X amount of times in a row', I also don't trust Mike Donais or any Hearthstone dev for that matter.
You just summed up the HS flamewar in one sentence, all while remaining neutral. Kudos.
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
I am more worried by the fall of Tempo Rogue, but i am pretty sure the nerfs won't crown a new meta tyrant from Razakus to Cubelock.
Well, we don't know if Tempo Rogue will truly fall. The reason why I'm saying this, is that if Elemental (Blaze) Rogue can make a return while utilizing many of the new cards, we could still see it at the top of Tier 2/Bottom Tier 1.
I agree on the crowning part too. I feel like unexpected archetypes will pop up.
I've already tried to sub the nerfed cards and PiratesPira an elemental package, and i am no pro player, but results were sub-optimal, compared to current Tempo Rogue.
The reason is that Blazecaller is light-years away from Bonemare, whose condition is much easier to implement (a token, instead of elemental condition), but it generates a threat also for following turns, which Blaze cannot.
At that point, you may as well hope for Bonemare to stay still functional at (8).
We'll see, but new Tempo Rogue will certainly be noticeably weaker than current version.
Hey people,
So, recently I've seen multiple topics touching on the power level of Warlock post-nerfs. I feel like many people are vastly overestimating the whole situation and I'll give you a couple of my thoughts below. Now, I might be wrong on a couple of those, but..anyway.
Now, a while back Murloc Paladin was widely regarded as the best deck in the game, and we saw people running Hungry Crabs all over the place. Same thing applies here, with the exception being Hungry Crab was really not efficient to run outside of that one matchup, whereas Silence and Weapon destruction can be decent in a lot of matchups. You're sacrificing two deck slots to improve your match-up against the best deck in the game (allegedly, if post-nerf works out the way we think it is).
I really don't understand the panic that's been taking over the community. I'm not saying Cubelock won't be the best deck in the game or anything like that. I'm saying you can dedicate 2-3 deck slots in order to beat it, quite efficiently at that. I feel like many slower decks will start popping up as well, ones that have good matchups against Warlocks.
For instance, I'm currently sitting at 73 percent winrate (or something along the lines, can't see now cause I'm at work) against Cubelocks/Control locks with Midrange Paladin. I'm talking about the slower version we saw a couple of months ago, with equality, tirion, consecs etcs. I've also had success with the Recruit Hunter, believe it or not. That goes to show that there is definitely hope.
What are your thoughts on the whole thing. Do you have more reasons as to why one should not be worried about cubelock. Feel free to elaborate or argue with me too. It can only lead to positive things. :)
Peace.
Combo decks are good against Cubelock because it's not fast enough. Call to Arms alone wins games sometimes. And the most disgusting deck of the game (Big Priest) usually destroys Warlock too. Tempo Mage seems to be a good choice, because it has a bad matchup against other aggro decks which will be nerfed soon.
And as many have said, Cubelock/Control Warlock is a high skill cap deck (probably the second to Mill Rogue currently) so the more bad players craft it, the easier it will be to generally beat it. And there are quite a few combos you can pull out on turn 5 stronger than Lackey+Dark Pact.
I definitely agree.
I am more worried by the fall of Tempo Rogue, but i am pretty sure the nerfs won't crown a new meta tyrant from Razakus to Cubelock.
Hush, don't tell everyone yet, I want some easy time climbing!
The rotation+new expansion will change everything anyway, that's the other reason I don't understand this mass hysteria. Cubelock is not even nearly as oppressive as Razakus has been, and its win condition can't be replaced with a coin toss. People will literally complain about everything. The game is in a healthy state right now and some fail to understand that there has to be a strongest deck (which Cubelock is far from, according to all the meta sites and Blizzard itself). After the nerf announcement, I saw so many "hurr durr why didn't they nerf this and that" "omg Warlock Tier -4 300% winrate now"... I mean for God's sake, learn how this game works. Blizzard isn't the brightest candle on the cake considering nerfs, that's true, but either you leave the game or you accept it and wait until the nerf comes to see what happens instead of acting like the apocalypse is coming tomorrow.
People need something to cry about constantly. Now since they got what they desired from Blizz with Raza and Patches nerf they will need another victim. So in the next year or so you can expect warlock nerfs thats for sure. The problem is that majority of players wont consider playing something like exodia mage or some similar bullshit because its complex and you realy need to wigle your ass untill you get your combo in order to survive. It's interesting how 2 decks that everyon have in mind are 2 decks that are feasiest to play! Big priest and tempo mage, LIKE WHAT THE FUCK, 4 year olds could just click the cards with those decks and win from time to time! Were is the fun in that? So my point is eventualy, when anything gets strong enough that in order to win against it you have to consider 'Harder' decks,community will start crying and eventualy Blizz will respond. That way you can be certan every single powerfull and interesting thing will get fucked. So yeah i am sorry about Warlocks this time. This is an interesting deck they have that will be fucked in some future.
Doomguard is getting Hall of Famed.
Blizzard is going to have to seriously look at Bloodreaver Gul'dan becaues it limits design much like Raza the Chained.
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Bloodreaver Gul'dan limits design? How is that? It's N'zoth without a body and brings back demons. I dont see anything wrong with that card. Its powerfull and its fun. Every single dk has potential to be broken. You just need the right meta for it. And my honest opinion is that Doomguard wont see Hall of fame, not even close. Why? Yes you can cheat him out now, and that bypasses his downside but Blizz wanted to make a card that will allow you to do just that. Doomguard will be going strong in standard for some time that's my guest and i am all for it! Finally a good use for that card and bunch of people wants it out right away LOL!
While I do not trust rage posters claiming to have faced the 'same deck X amount of times in a row', I also don't trust Mike Donais or any Hearthstone dev for that matter. His argument holds no water. It is the equivalent of someone asking you if you are free and you asking them to hold on a minute while you check your journal made of thin air. Posting stats would go a long way for both parties to prove the legitimacy of their argument.
For me this is not about cubelock or control warlock being a strong meta defining deck. It's about the premise of cheating the mana curve. That is extremely toxic for the game and seriously compromises the longevity of hearthstone.
Secret Mage/Burn Mage and Big Priest are legitimate counters. I still feel like the power level of Lackey is too high, but that's a complaint for another day.
I also think we will find some other control decks become viable since they don't auto-lose to Razakus anymore. Maybe Warrior has something going on. Big Spell mage has tools. Taunt-Tiger Druid? (jk)
But make no mistake, I think that Warlock is the deck to beat. Some deck almost always centralizes the metagame.
I think when we talk about worrying about cubelock it should be broadened to worrying about control lock. Cubelock surged in popularity because it was a little more effective against razakus but now that raza is nerfed, we could see more regular control locks. That deck is probably as scary because they have rin for control and the same voidlords against aggro.
Totally agree. I think the panic over the predicted Warlock Period of Dominance is highly exaggerated due to the fact that it's a class that feels terrible to lose to.
Seeing double doomlocks vomit out of a cube that was just sacrificed for 8 health is a helpless feeling when you don't have any counters. When you lose to that you feel cheated to a degree; when Hearthstone is at its worst, it's usually because you lost to a play that you had no chance to counter or was fueled by a high amount of RNG. Cubelock has a bit of both.
That said, I believe the data that Mike must be seeing (although I'd love to have it in better context) and if a ton more people start trying to pilot that deck, I think we'll see the meta shift to a counter and suddenly find it starting to normalize. Give it time; all will be well.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished