Most of the decks now feel the same to play, with just different class cards and maybe some slight variation in strategy. I think Blizzard is releasing too much powerful Neutral minions, that everyone ends up playing the same cards.
I'm not sure I follow. Rin Control Warlock, Razakus Priest, Tempo Rogue or Murloc Pally have very different play styles in my opinion, despite being competitive decks in the current meta. I agree that Firefly, Corridor Creeper and Bonemare can be found in many deck, but there's still room for different strategies in the game.
Ok but how would that work for edge cases? For example what would happen if people just started putting Kazakus in normal decks just to force his meta rating. How would it take into account neutral cards that are always used in one class becoming meta for a class that almost never uses them. What would stop trolls forcing cards into meta just to limit the play of this small off-meta game community.
I don't think people will sacrifice win rate just to influence the meta with putting highly used cards that complete their deck as off-meta. What we talk is: Player A puts 29 cards in the deck and wants to throw some highly used card to increase its percent of usage while keeping the deck off-meta. He puts card K in the deck instead of his optimal card choice losing 1% win rate and raising the usage of card K with 0.001%. Sure, player A could do this, but I don't think this will be on mass scale since in order the percent of usage of exactly card K to be raised significantly the trolls as you said have to coordinate themselves and every one of them to put exactly card K. Also, no point to do this if you are regular player and you already are offered the choice to simply ban a class/card.
TLDR: I don't think the players could exploit such system somehow.
Ok but how would that work for edge cases? For example what would happen if people just started putting Kazakus in normal decks just to force his meta rating. How would it take into account neutral cards that are always used in one class becoming meta for a class that almost never uses them. What would stop trolls forcing cards into meta just to limit the play of this small off-meta game community.
I don't think people will sacrifice win rate just to influence the meta with putting highly used cards that complete their deck as off-meta. What we talk is: Player A puts 29 cards in the deck and wants to throw some highly used card to increase its percent of usage while keeping the deck off-meta. He puts card K in the deck instead of his optimal card choice losing 1% win rate and raising the usage of card K with 0.001%. Sure, player A could do this, but I don't think this will be on mass scale since in order the percent of usage of exactly card K to be raised significantly the trolls as you said have to coordinate themselves and every one of them to put exactly card K. Also, no point to do this if you are regular player and you already are offered the choice to simply ban a class/card.
TLDR: I don't think the players could exploit such system somehow.
You have greater faith in people that I do my friend ;) given the long history of trolling in computer games this one could be the ultimate BM. You avoid the loss impact as you'e probably focussing on the real ladder and just trolling the off-meta ladder. It would take little more than building a deck of every card you want to influence and then go into games. Quit out, tweak the deck so the algorithm thinks it's new, rinse and repeat.
I'm interested that you think this would be better for the free to play or new players. My thoughts are this would be awful as they'll focus their resources on building the most efficient deck they can which is then ruined should this force them into the meta bracket where they end up facing the true meta decks. Or they focus their resources on staying off-meta only to be crushed when they move to the real ladder because they've invested their resources in the wrong things.
I do understand now why you thought this would be simple to code though as just gathering usage stats and putting a meta threshold against them should be fairly straightforward. However I don't think this would deliver what you want.
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.
I don't see why you think people will mass troll in such mode making decks of particular cards - what do they achieve with this? Some cards will never see play in off-meta match-ups? What's the big deal of this keeping trolls spaming games with useless decks?
About new players: The increased gold income from easier match-ups will simply give them more freedom. How they spend their mana and which cards they craft is their choice. Some will prefer to focus on meta decks, others not. Both options are viable since off-meta decks are usually 10-20 times more cheaper than meta decks. Their off-meta decks can't suddenly ALL become meta when they are built with different cheap cards.
I don't see why you think people will mass troll in such mode making decks of particular cards - what do they achieve with this? Some cards will never see play in off-meta match-ups? What's the big deal of this keeping trolls spaming games with useless decks?
About new players: The increased gold income from easier match-ups will simply give them more freedom. How they spend their mana and which cards they craft is their choice. Some will prefer to focus on meta decks, others not. Both options are viable since off-meta decks are usually 10-20 times more cheaper than meta decks. Their off-meta decks can't suddenly ALL become meta when they are built with different cheap cards.
Honestly just to be dicks and to make other people's playing experience less fun. Look at Eve online, I'm sure there was a famous situation where a coordinated group of people spent over a year and hundreds if not thousands of pounds setting up a major troll on one of the corporations.
Regarding the new players and gold will the upcoming changes not accomplish the same thing as you'll be grouped with people of the same level. How do they decide which card to buy as well if the meta changes every week or more frequently. Also if its only handled on a card by card basis how do you stop the real meta decks (lets say Razakus) building the core then filling with weak cards to ensure they're off meta before easily getting the rewards at the expense of the weak off-meta decks? This is why I thought it would be a fairly complex assessment as to really do it I think you'd need to look at decks in their entirety. I appreciate you continuing to discuss this with me I just can't see the beneits of it ouside the current game - other than getting higher level rewards easier and cheaply.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.
if its only handled on a card by card basis how do you stop the real meta decks (lets say Razakus) building the core then filling with weak cards to ensure they're off meta before easily getting the rewards at the expense of the weak off-meta decks?
That is the purpose of the mode - people will start playing less and less meta cards until these become off-meta again - a cycle to which you have to adapt with deck building.
About trolls: These creatures group and receive meaning when there is something to be gained. Making a bunch of cards considered meta by the system is not something of value when the mode purpose itself is to stimulate off-meta deck building.
I think a big point about off-meta deck building that is being neglected in this thread is that often you will have some pretty amazing home brewed decks that either need some 'meta cards' to make the home brew that much more consistent, or may even need one or more popular meta cards to even work.
Take the deck in my sig for a quick example. While N'Zoth is only a meta card in Control Warlock right now having N'Zoth marked as a meta card that wouldn't be allowed in this new 'meta-less' format would actually drastically change how my homebrew'd version of my OTK deck would work.
Removing every meta card wouldn't only get rid of tier decks, but it could also dismantle some home brew decks as well.
While N'Zoth is only a meta card in Control Warlock right now having N'Zoth marked as a meta card that wouldn't be allowed in this new 'meta-less' format would actually drastically change how my homebrew'd version of my OTK deck would work.
Removing every meta card wouldn't only get rid of tier decks, but it could also dismantle some home brew decks as well.
Exactly - that is the idea - adapt, build, experiment, adapt, change, adapt...
I know you find it strange - players don't do this type of game in HS anymore since they don't expect to break the meta. Such mode would revive deck building and bring back all underused cards in the game. Suddenly HS would feel fun again.
While N'Zoth is only a meta card in Control Warlock right now having N'Zoth marked as a meta card that wouldn't be allowed in this new 'meta-less' format would actually drastically change how my homebrew'd version of my OTK deck would work.
Removing every meta card wouldn't only get rid of tier decks, but it could also dismantle some home brew decks as well.
Exactly - that is the idea - adapt, build, experiment, adapt, change, adapt...
I know you find it strange - players don't do this type of game in HS anymore since they don't expect to break the meta. Such mode would revive deck building and bring back all underused cards in the game. Suddenly HS would feel fun again.
I feel you may have missed my point. Some of the meta cards actually encourage underused cards to be used again because those meta cards strengthen weaker underused cards. I feel that is a better approach than getting rid of all strong cards so that we can have a psuedo-vanilla meta with a bunch of cards that never saw play.
The Spiteful Mech Mage that was on Hearthpwn recently actually is a great example of this. While Mech Mage used to be a meta deck years ago it isn't anymore, even by wild standards, and whenever I'd try to make a version of the deck prior to K&C it simply ran out of steam way too fast by today's deck standards. However, when somebody's version of the Spiteful variant of this deck got featured (with Spiteful Summoners, Creepers, Patches, etc it actually made the deck a lot more fun again since it could actually wins games more consistently and even allowed for tempo plays that the deck previously never had access to.
^ That is one reason why I like how meta cards can strengthen underused or forgotten cards, not by creating some abstract banned list that guts synergy and tries to more or less create arena decks out of standard.
Some of the meta cards actually encourage underused cards to be used again because those meta cards strengthen weaker underused cards. I feel that is a better approach than getting rid of all strong cards so that we can have a psuedo-vanilla meta with a bunch of cards that never saw play.
It all depends where they draw the line between meta and off-meta - what the value (say X) of the sum of the card's usage percent declaring a deck meta/off-meta is.
For example, your mech mage deck will probably be near the X line, while a pure big spell mage will be meta (> X). If they decide to streghten the off-meta portion (lower X), your mech mage will be marked meta (> X).
It is up to them where they want to draw the line.
So it's not like you'd be able to adapt to anything.
So, we created the perfect coin flip mode then - Ben will be happy kappa!
Seriously, I don't think it will be that hard to adapt as long as you are a good deck builder. What you wrote is true, but it alone doesn't make it impossible to adjust.
I've thought a lot about this problem, and here's my best invention:
Each week, only one-third of the cards in your collection are eligible to be played on the creative ladder. But the kick is, it's random for every player, what cards of yours you can put into a creative deck this week is unique to you. So now, you can't possibly netdeck (there are no general solutions), and neither can your opponents.
How Blizzard benefits: the one-third of the cards you could play if you craft them are also highlighted, this is an incentive to craft a bit more so it's an incentive to buy a few more packs; but only a minor incentive if you own a lot of cards. No matter what, you'll still have to be creative, and there will be a LOT of variety on the creative ladder, even from those who are try-harding.
People will complain a bit more about too-common cards such as corridor creeper (with some reason) but they'll be immensely grateful that they never have to face the exact same deck twice in a row. They'll also have a lot of fun just trying stuff out and being able to compete at the same time.
Some weeks, you'll be a bit unlucky in what's eligible, but there are four weeks in a season, you'll have an extra-lucky week, too.
There would be two creative ladders, one wild and one standard.
This making the game friendlier for new platers. If you look at the upcoming ladder changes, it suppose the venture the idea that there's skill in the game now that people of equal skill can play against each other, a nice way to keep the current design philosophy (card design catering into mindlessly aggressive decks) unchecked. So the next expansion will see another round of OP-cards and brotarded decks for the vulgarized crowd. I must say they are very successful in distracting crowds dissatisfaction with the meta by introducing changes that don't solve the real issues, but keep the masses occupied. I'm impressed.
Well, if the choice is to be part of the "vulgarised crowd" where I get to play an easy to learn fast paced game (as Hearthstone is meant to be) with lots of variety, or to be part of your elitist Trump like crowd where the only possible option is to slog it out in every game with lengthy control matchups, I know which I'd pick.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.
I must say they are very successful in distracting crowds dissatisfaction with the meta by introducing changes that don't solve the real issues, but keep the masses occupied. I'm impressed.
+1, they dodge the real problems with just shifting the META. This however will cost them player base and revenue in the long term. They are greedy as it could be with no core changes to the game (new modes and things one can do in-game) since release, just massing cards like it's the end of the world and making 99% of them useless by introducing OP best sellers that form a 4 decks META and everyone and his mom copies them like it's a bottle caps factory until the next line of production is released with the new expansion. For how long?
I must say they are very successful in distracting crowds dissatisfaction with the meta by introducing changes that don't solve the real issues, but keep the masses occupied. I'm impressed.
+1, they dodge the real problems with just shifting the META. This however will cost them player base and revenue in the long term. They are greedy as it could be with no core changes to the game (new modes and things one can do in-game) since release, just massing cards like it's the end of the world and making 99% of them useless by introducing OP best sellers that form a 4 decks META and everyone and his mom copies them like it's a bottle caps factory until the next line of production is released with the new expansion. For how long?
Does your point not start to fall down though if you consider that for (by my estimate) 80-90% of the playing population are not experiencing this 4 deck meta you keep talking about? Also that (aside from a couple of outliers) the win rates between all classes is around the 50% mark? How about that there are many different deck options on the many site that tracks them Tempostorm itself has 25 different decks between T1 and T3?
What stats are you using to form your opinions? Is it only the most efficient decks that are Tier 1 or what stats are gathered for the top tier to legend players which is a tiny percentage of the playerbase or are you considering everything from level 25? If it's the former is that not a somewhat narrow view to base your assessment on the state of the game?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.
Why are you using "META" in all capital letters? Is it an acronym?
I assume that's what they think. A lot of people in gaming communities use the term without knowing what it actually means/is short for beyond the general idea of "the most common decks/strategies".
Novice engineer & Hearthstone dilettante
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.
I don't see why you think people will mass troll in such mode making decks of particular cards - what do they achieve with this? Some cards will never see play in off-meta match-ups? What's the big deal of this keeping trolls spaming games with useless decks?
About new players: The increased gold income from easier match-ups will simply give them more freedom. How they spend their mana and which cards they craft is their choice. Some will prefer to focus on meta decks, others not. Both options are viable since off-meta decks are usually 10-20 times more cheaper than meta decks. Their off-meta decks can't suddenly ALL become meta when they are built with different cheap cards.
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.
I think a big point about off-meta deck building that is being neglected in this thread is that often you will have some pretty amazing home brewed decks that either need some 'meta cards' to make the home brew that much more consistent, or may even need one or more popular meta cards to even work.
Take the deck in my sig for a quick example. While N'Zoth is only a meta card in Control Warlock right now having N'Zoth marked as a meta card that wouldn't be allowed in this new 'meta-less' format would actually drastically change how my homebrew'd version of my OTK deck would work.
Removing every meta card wouldn't only get rid of tier decks, but it could also dismantle some home brew decks as well.
Creative ladder:
I've thought a lot about this problem, and here's my best invention:
Each week, only one-third of the cards in your collection are eligible to be played on the creative ladder. But the kick is, it's random for every player, what cards of yours you can put into a creative deck this week is unique to you. So now, you can't possibly netdeck (there are no general solutions), and neither can your opponents.
How Blizzard benefits: the one-third of the cards you could play if you craft them are also highlighted, this is an incentive to craft a bit more so it's an incentive to buy a few more packs; but only a minor incentive if you own a lot of cards. No matter what, you'll still have to be creative, and there will be a LOT of variety on the creative ladder, even from those who are try-harding.
People will complain a bit more about too-common cards such as corridor creeper (with some reason) but they'll be immensely grateful that they never have to face the exact same deck twice in a row. They'll also have a lot of fun just trying stuff out and being able to compete at the same time.
Some weeks, you'll be a bit unlucky in what's eligible, but there are four weeks in a season, you'll have an extra-lucky week, too.
There would be two creative ladders, one wild and one standard.
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.
Why are you using "META" in all capital letters? Is it an acronym?
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.