A major problem with this that most players don't seem to understand is that creativity and originality have shelf lives. Say a random person creates a really unique and fun deck that not many players have thought of yet and they get rewarded by the new system you suggest. Well, either due to them posting it on something like Hearthpwn to maybe get it highlighted, or simply because they play it enough that other people start copying what they saw from your deck (and perhaps even posting it themselves), now everybody is using it. Is that once legit original deck now "cancer" because everyone is using it?
This begs the question then; "Should we bother rewarding creativity when it very quickly becomes stale as soon as you start playing the deck and/or posting it?"
What are you expecting? Someone will play t1 control deck and after 20minutes match will get half star? And someone with funny meme deck win and get 5 stars?
History has proven that communism is a bad idea. Learn to play the game and stop wishing that 'system' will provide any benefits to losers.
I've been to legend a few times mate, and rank 5 minimum every season. I can play just fine. The ladder system is awful and gets worse as time goes on. It was supposed to be a place-holder for a better sytem...
And yet for all your alleged success, you still wish to make the game easier for yourself. I wonder why...
A major problem with this that most players don't seem to understand is that creativity and originality have shelf lives. Say a random person creates a really unique and fun deck that not many players have thought of yet and they get rewarded by the new system you suggest. Well, either due to them posting it on something like Hearthpwn to maybe get it highlighted, or simply because they play it enough that other people start copying what they saw from your deck (and perhaps even posting it themselves), now everybody is using it. Is that once legit original deck now "cancer" because everyone is using it?
This begs the question then; "Should we bother rewarding creativity when it very quickly becomes stale as soon as you start playing the deck and/or posting it?"
That would be the point of the fluid algorithm based system. Nothing ever gets stale. The only thing that has a shelf life are overpowered netdecks that get passed around like candy.
History has proven that communism is a bad idea. Learn to play the game and stop wishing that 'system' will provide any benefits to losers.
I've been to legend a few times mate, and rank 5 minimum every season. I can play just fine. The ladder system is awful and gets worse as time goes on. It was supposed to be a place-holder for a better sytem...
And yet for all your alleged success, you still wish to make the game easier for yourself. I wonder why...
Goddamn it everyone here is such a cynic, you all assume that I'm either a sub rank 15 struggling noob, or failing to win with a gimmick or f2p deck (I'm not I'm currently rank 7 with cubelock, will be rank 5 in no time), or I'm 12 years old and I am stupid therefore the idea is fking stupid. The upvoted comparison with communism is so idiotic I don't know where to begin with that so I just ignored it, but it helps me understand how Trump won an election, so thanks for that.
Look, blizzard themselves JUST NOW introduced a working algorithm system on arena and it has helped....a lot. Arena is extremely healthy right now. I'm also a pretty damn good arena player FYI, not that you'll beleive that either, based on this thread. They could have a more complex algorithm working on ranked ladder than you can possibly imagine, and that could improve over-time, to turn ladder into a far better experience than the current boring grind that it is.
The Ladder system as it stands was always intended to be a PLACE-HOLDER . Blizzard accepted that the whole thing sucked, right out the gate. It needs to go, it's time. Its hard to beleive that some people think its not worth trying to replace it.
History has proven that communism is a bad idea. Learn to play the game and stop wishing that 'system' will provide any benefits to losers.
I've been to legend a few times mate, and rank 5 minimum every season. I can play just fine. The ladder system is awful and gets worse as time goes on. It was supposed to be a place-holder for a better sytem...
And yet for all your alleged success, you still wish to make the game easier for yourself. I wonder why...
History has proven that communism is a bad idea. Learn to play the game and stop wishing that 'system' will provide any benefits to losers.
I've been to legend a few times mate, and rank 5 minimum every season. I can play just fine. The ladder system is awful and gets worse as time goes on. It was supposed to be a place-holder for a better sytem...
And yet for all your alleged success, you still wish to make the game easier for yourself. I wonder why...
???? I wish to make the game more fun. **** you.
You implied I was lying bro, just to help validate my point, what do you expect?
History has proven that communism is a bad idea. Learn to play the game and stop wishing that 'system' will provide any benefits to losers.
I've been to legend a few times mate, and rank 5 minimum every season. I can play just fine. The ladder system is awful and gets worse as time goes on. It was supposed to be a place-holder for a better sytem...
And yet for all your alleged success, you still wish to make the game easier for yourself. I wonder why...
???? I wish to make the game more fun. **** you.
You implied I was lying bro, just to help validate my point, what do you expect?
A less knee-jerk "Not guilty, honest!" type of reaction might have helped - but to each his own. ;-) Not that it matters though; it was only a light jab. No need for sourness. ^_^ The point being is that making a game easier does not (usually) make it more fun. And rewarding "average" is part of this. Your proposal only appears to target those who wish to remain competitive by limiting competitive rewards. And instead choosing to offer greater reward to those who don't try as hard to succeed with a deck.
The bottom line is that the whole concept makes the regrettably common mistake of believing that using a popular deck is the problem, rather than having a skill ceiling that is paticularly low (and a card-base that is ridiculously easy to complete). There will always be the "best" decks in a meta. But as soon as one deck earns more rewards than another, it will become that deck which is popular - and then what? You punish people for playing that one instead? What about the people who played it first, expecting to get good rewards from it? What about people who only had a small selection of cards to choose from and are now punished because other players play those cards a lot?
History has proven that communism is a bad idea. Learn to play the game and stop wishing that 'system' will provide any benefits to losers.
I've been to legend a few times mate, and rank 5 minimum every season. I can play just fine. The ladder system is awful and gets worse as time goes on. It was supposed to be a place-holder for a better sytem...
And yet for all your alleged success, you still wish to make the game easier for yourself. I wonder why...
???? I wish to make the game more fun. **** you.
You implied I was lying bro, just to help validate my point, what do you expect?
A less knee-jerk "Not guilty, honest!" type of reaction might have helped - but to each his own. ;-) Not that it matters though; it was only a light jab. No need for sourness. ^_^ The point being is that making a game easier does not (usually) make it more fun. And rewarding "average" is part of this. Your proposal only appears to target those who wish to remain competitive by limiting competitive rewards. And instead choosing to offer greater reward to those who don't try as hard to succeed with a deck.
The bottom line is that the whole concept makes the regrettably common mistake of believing that using a popular deck is the problem, rather than having a skill ceiling that is paticularly low (and a card-base that is ridiculously easy to complete). There will always be the "best" decks in a meta. But as soon as one deck earns more rewards than another, it will become that deck which is popular - and then what? You punish people for playing that one instead? What about the people who played it first, expecting to get good rewards from it? What about people who only had a small selection of cards to choose from and are now punished because other players play those cards a lot?
It simply doesn't work, am afraid.
Apologies, I'm feeling ratty as I just can't get ove that people actually seem to like the current ladder system, think I just assumed I wouldn't be alone on this. From my point of view, right now, any kind of overhaul would be welcome.
"There will always be the "best" decks in a meta. But as soon as one deck earns more rewards than another, it will become that deck which is popular - and then what? You punish people for playing that one instead?" - Precisely, the whole idea is to create a more fluid, less stale ladder. The people who dsicover the powerful decks first are rewarded for it, but not forever. But I accept you don't think it can work, cetainly appreciated this reply a lot more than your first :)
Apologies, I'm feeling ratty as I just can't get ove that people actually seem to like the current ladder system, think I just assumed I wouldn't be alone on this. From my point of view, right now, any kind of overhaul would be welcome.
Just because people don't like your idea doesn't mean they are DEFENDING the current idea. "Any kind of overhaul" isn't always the best mindset as there's far FAR **FAR** worse overhauls you can make to make things worse (i.e. a lot of ideas that get flung around here).
"There will always be the "best" decks in a meta. But as soon as one deck earns more rewards than another, it will become that deck which is popular - and then what? You punish people for playing that one instead?" - Precisely, the whole idea is to create a more fluid, less stale ladder. The people who dsicover the powerful decks first are rewarded for it, but not forever. But I accept you don't think it can work, cetainly appreciated this reply a lot more than your first :)
Well such a system has a lot of appeal but it punishes most of the players as most don't WANT to be hyperchanging their decks every week or so to keep up. Newer players with smaller card sets and folks who prefer to play their special deck (the "I'm a control player" or "I want to play handlock") will be utterly punished by this system. And most players just want to play whatever deck they enjoy whether they are metadecking or just playing 'for fun'.
The system is mostly for folks who want to keep changing decks to maintain a good growth. "I" find it facinating, but I'm the type of person who stores up 3 quests then try to make a new deck that has all three elements (Battlecry Murloc Warlock!!!). Thus I'd love a MODE where people like me could spam the mess out of it. But most people would be punished and not just netdeckers. So no, we can't put this in the main play mode of the game.
Apologies, I'm feeling ratty as I just can't get ove that people actually seem to like the current ladder system, think I just assumed I wouldn't be alone on this. From my point of view, right now, any kind of overhaul would be welcome.
Just because people don't like your idea doesn't mean they are DEFENDING the current idea. "Any kind of overhaul" isn't always the best mindset as there's far FAR **FAR** worse overhauls you can make to make things worse (i.e. a lot of ideas that get flung around here).
"There will always be the "best" decks in a meta. But as soon as one deck earns more rewards than another, it will become that deck which is popular - and then what? You punish people for playing that one instead?" - Precisely, the whole idea is to create a more fluid, less stale ladder. The people who dsicover the powerful decks first are rewarded for it, but not forever. But I accept you don't think it can work, cetainly appreciated this reply a lot more than your first :)
Well such a system has a lot of appeal but it punishes most of the players as most don't WANT to be hyperchanging their decks every week or so to keep up. Newer players with smaller card sets and folks who prefer to play their special deck (the "I'm a control player" or "I want to play handlock") will be utterly punished by this system. And most players just want to play whatever deck they enjoy whether they are metadecking or just playing 'for fun'.
The system is mostly for folks who want to keep changing decks to maintain a good growth. "I" find it facinating, but I'm the type of person who stores up 3 quests then try to make a new deck that has all three elements (Battlecry Murloc Warlock!!!). Thus I'd love a MODE where people like me could spam the mess out of it. But most people would be punished and not just netdeckers. So no, we can't put this in the main play mode of the game.
Thanks, I see what you're saying. maybe at some point in the future blizzard might introduce a mode with similarites to what I suggested. I understand why people a wary of MMR in hearthstone but I think it would be crazy to rule out some sort of algorithm based system to improve the ladder experience in future.
Just a thought... what if they add a new game mode that has a ladder system like now (one win = one star) but the deck you use to climb is an Arena style draft? And they could even make it where you draft a deck and play ten games with it, then you can choose to drop and redraft 5 cards or change class and completely redraft if you think what you got is just completely terrible. Regardless of your choice you continue climbing at the rank you've reached so far.
It's almost like a competitive ladder dungeon run type of game (with out the crazy treasures or super high health totals, and not against a computer). Could be fun! Not saying replace the current ladder with this because people will want a place to play purely constructed decks, but this theorized new game mode could spark the bit of creativity you think the game is lacking. Sure, someone could get lucky and end up with a meta net deck if given the right choices, but it's a lower chance as they have to build off the choices they are given.
I feel like this mode would probably have a Gold cost to it though as Blizzard wouldn't want to give players a way to play any card in a ranked mode without having to buy packs.
Just a thought... what if they add a new game mode that has a ladder system like now (one win = one star) but the deck you use to climb is an Arena style draft? And they could even make it where you draft a deck and play ten games with it, then you can choose to drop and redraft 5 cards or change class and completely redraft if you think what you got is just completely terrible. Regardless of your choice you continue climbing at the rank you've reached so far.
It's almost like a competitive ladder dungeon run type of game (with out the crazy treasures or super high health totals, and not against a computer). Could be fun! Not saying replace the current ladder with this because people will want a place to play purely constructed decks, but this theorized new game mode could spark the bit of creativity you think the game is lacking. Sure, someone could get lucky and end up with a meta net deck if given the right choices, but it's a lower chance as they have to build off the choices they are given.
I feel like this mode would probably have a Gold cost to it though as Blizzard wouldn't want to give players a way to play any card in a ranked mode without having to buy packs.
Love the idea (like legit, it sounds amazing), but, I can't see how within a month there would be very clear guidelines on how to get a good draft (Rough example: Pick jades every time if you get Rouge because Jade Rouge is very strong and easy to get all the cards for). When climbing in ladder, consistency is key so people would only draft decks that might not be tier 1 since they can't get it everytime but almost always tier 2 and climb with that. Ofc we will see some odd decks here and there but we also see that in both Arena and Competitive. Cards like Bonmare would also suddenly become a HUGE problem. Played in every deck. So now we have the ladder problem with a stale meta and lots of grinding + the salt from arena with RnG drafts, Bonmares and Cobalt Scalebanes everywhere.
There reaches a point in competitive play when the process is no longer fun because one is facing the elite of the elite and everyone there will do anything to win. No changes to the game or format will make the process of achieving Legend seem like anything other than toil and strife - it is the nature of the beast. At that point, one must decide if the reaching the goal is an adequate reward because getting there will never be fun. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
There reaches a point in competitive play when the process is no longer fun because one is facing the elite of the elite and everyone there will do anything to win. No changes to the game or format will make the process of achieving Legend seem like anything other than toil and strife - it is the nature of the beast. At that point, one must decide if the reaching the goal is an adequate reward because getting there will never be fun. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
That is why they need to make casual fun and punish those using meta decks there by matching them against players with meta decks, not f2p players or such that experiment with unpopular decks/cards.
Apologies, I'm feeling ratty as I just can't get ove that people actually seem to like the current ladder system, think I just assumed I wouldn't be alone on this. From my point of view, right now, any kind of overhaul would be welcome.
Just because people don't like your idea doesn't mean they are DEFENDING the current idea. "Any kind of overhaul" isn't always the best mindset as there's far FAR **FAR** worse overhauls you can make to make things worse (i.e. a lot of ideas that get flung around here).
"There will always be the "best" decks in a meta. But as soon as one deck earns more rewards than another, it will become that deck which is popular - and then what? You punish people for playing that one instead?" - Precisely, the whole idea is to create a more fluid, less stale ladder. The people who dsicover the powerful decks first are rewarded for it, but not forever. But I accept you don't think it can work, cetainly appreciated this reply a lot more than your first :)
Well such a system has a lot of appeal but it punishes most of the players as most don't WANT to be hyperchanging their decks every week or so to keep up. Newer players with smaller card sets and folks who prefer to play their special deck (the "I'm a control player" or "I want to play handlock") will be utterly punished by this system. And most players just want to play whatever deck they enjoy whether they are metadecking or just playing 'for fun'.
The system is mostly for folks who want to keep changing decks to maintain a good growth. "I" find it facinating, but I'm the type of person who stores up 3 quests then try to make a new deck that has all three elements (Battlecry Murloc Warlock!!!). Thus I'd love a MODE where people like me could spam the mess out of it. But most people would be punished and not just netdeckers. So no, we can't put this in the main play mode of the game.
Thanks, I see what you're saying. maybe at some point in the future blizzard might introduce a mode with similarites to what I suggested. I understand why people a wary of MMR in hearthstone but I think it would be crazy to rule out some sort of algorithm based system to improve the ladder experience in future.
Just stop it, this thread has reached consensus that your ideas and justifications are dumb.
Ah it's the guy with the laughable comparsion with communism isn't it? Think you could break it a little more than, 'your ideas are dumb and give me Stalin based PTSD"?
Hearthstone Community: OMG the meta is so stale there's aggro everywhere please fix
*Someone introduces base concept to increase diversity and lessen the ranking advantage aggro decks have*
OMG what a lame scrub you just want the game easier for you git gud loser
Thanks for the support man. I'm not arrogant enough to think my idea as is is good enough to just add into the game, I'm no dev. I just think there might be something in the algorithm concept to improve the ladder grind for us all.
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A major problem with this that most players don't seem to understand is that creativity and originality have shelf lives. Say a random person creates a really unique and fun deck that not many players have thought of yet and they get rewarded by the new system you suggest. Well, either due to them posting it on something like Hearthpwn to maybe get it highlighted, or simply because they play it enough that other people start copying what they saw from your deck (and perhaps even posting it themselves), now everybody is using it. Is that once legit original deck now "cancer" because everyone is using it?
This begs the question then; "Should we bother rewarding creativity when it very quickly becomes stale as soon as you start playing the deck and/or posting it?"
What are you expecting? Someone will play t1 control deck and after 20minutes match will get half star? And someone with funny meme deck win and get 5 stars?
So you are suggestion that oeople should get less ranks for certain decks you dislike, because people like you love their weak gimmick/homebrew decks?
if you can make such good decks prove it, many people did and got better ranks instead of whining.
What are you trying to play? shaman? mill rogue? warrior?
Goddamn it everyone here is such a cynic, you all assume that I'm either a sub rank 15 struggling noob, or failing to win with a gimmick or f2p deck (I'm not I'm currently rank 7 with cubelock, will be rank 5 in no time), or I'm 12 years old and I am stupid therefore the idea is fking stupid. The upvoted comparison with communism is so idiotic I don't know where to begin with that so I just ignored it, but it helps me understand how Trump won an election, so thanks for that.
Look, blizzard themselves JUST NOW introduced a working algorithm system on arena and it has helped....a lot. Arena is extremely healthy right now. I'm also a pretty damn good arena player FYI, not that you'll beleive that either, based on this thread. They could have a more complex algorithm working on ranked ladder than you can possibly imagine, and that could improve over-time, to turn ladder into a far better experience than the current boring grind that it is.
The Ladder system as it stands was always intended to be a PLACE-HOLDER . Blizzard accepted that the whole thing sucked, right out the gate. It needs to go, it's time. Its hard to beleive that some people think its not worth trying to replace it.
Not that it matters though; it was only a light jab. No need for sourness. ^_^
The point being is that making a game easier does not (usually) make it more fun. And rewarding "average" is part of this. Your proposal only appears to target those who wish to remain competitive by limiting competitive rewards. And instead choosing to offer greater reward to those who don't try as hard to succeed with a deck.
There will always be the "best" decks in a meta. But as soon as one deck earns more rewards than another, it will become that deck which is popular - and then what? You punish people for playing that one instead?
What about the people who played it first, expecting to get good rewards from it?
What about people who only had a small selection of cards to choose from and are now punished because other players play those cards a lot?
Well such a system has a lot of appeal but it punishes most of the players as most don't WANT to be hyperchanging their decks every week or so to keep up. Newer players with smaller card sets and folks who prefer to play their special deck (the "I'm a control player" or "I want to play handlock") will be utterly punished by this system. And most players just want to play whatever deck they enjoy whether they are metadecking or just playing 'for fun'.
The system is mostly for folks who want to keep changing decks to maintain a good growth. "I" find it facinating, but I'm the type of person who stores up 3 quests then try to make a new deck that has all three elements (Battlecry Murloc Warlock!!!). Thus I'd love a MODE where people like me could spam the mess out of it. But most people would be punished and not just netdeckers. So no, we can't put this in the main play mode of the game.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Just a thought... what if they add a new game mode that has a ladder system like now (one win = one star) but the deck you use to climb is an Arena style draft? And they could even make it where you draft a deck and play ten games with it, then you can choose to drop and redraft 5 cards or change class and completely redraft if you think what you got is just completely terrible. Regardless of your choice you continue climbing at the rank you've reached so far.
It's almost like a competitive ladder dungeon run type of game (with out the crazy treasures or super high health totals, and not against a computer). Could be fun! Not saying replace the current ladder with this because people will want a place to play purely constructed decks, but this theorized new game mode could spark the bit of creativity you think the game is lacking. Sure, someone could get lucky and end up with a meta net deck if given the right choices, but it's a lower chance as they have to build off the choices they are given.
I feel like this mode would probably have a Gold cost to it though as Blizzard wouldn't want to give players a way to play any card in a ranked mode without having to buy packs.
Hearthstone Community:
OMG the meta is so stale there's aggro everywhere please fix
*Someone introduces base concept to increase diversity and lessen the ranking advantage aggro decks have*
OMG what a lame scrub you just want the game easier for you git gud loser
There reaches a point in competitive play when the process is no longer fun because one is facing the elite of the elite and everyone there will do anything to win. No changes to the game or format will make the process of achieving Legend seem like anything other than toil and strife - it is the nature of the beast. At that point, one must decide if the reaching the goal is an adequate reward because getting there will never be fun. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.