1, control mage isn't a thing. 2, control mage...isn't a thing, so nobody gives a shit about mage board clears except solitaire mage. 3, DFP, Spirit Lash, and Psychic Scream don't see play outside of solitaire priest. So I don't really give a shit about those, because actual control priest doesn't exist. 4, I played Control Priest exclusively back in the day, so yes I DO know. It is FAR FAR FAR more difficult to deal with early game snowball bullshit now than it was before. Back in the day....oh thank god I got Deathlord in the mulligan and got Belcher for turn 5. Now....fuck me I'm dead before I can even cast DFP. T1 Pirate, T2 Keleseth, T3 Southsea, T4 Creeper, T5 Scalebane,.......T1 1/1 divine sheld taunt, T2 Juggler, T3 Coin + summon 3 more fucking dudes, T4 3 more fucking dudes or a weapon that I now have to somehow deal with....
No. It's FAR more difficult now. Trust me. Back in the day, 3 mana spent meant 3 mana worth of value. Now? Who the fuck knows, it's all about cheating out as much bullshit as you can for free or next to free.
You know that the best deck in the game is Razakus Priest aka a Control Priest, right?
OMG NO WAY! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING! I TAKE IT ALL BACK!!!!
Razakus is combo deck. Combo decks look like control decks because they have to stall until they draw their OTK/burst. But it is not a control deck.
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Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
You know that the best deck in the game is Razakus Priest aka a Control Priest, right?
Just like Freeze Mage was a Control Mage?
I am sorry to tell you the truth, just because a control deck is what control players in general call aggro "cancer" doesn't mean you can just not call it a control deck. The thing is combo decks are more of an offspring to control that use a combo instead of threats to win the game. Show me one "combo" deck that doesn't run control tools.
Ohh, thank you. We can be best "people on a random forum about a children's card game that don't know each other, had their first contact just now and will very likely never engage in a deeper conversation about anything but this children's card game" again.
1, control mage isn't a thing. 2, control mage...isn't a thing, so nobody gives a shit about mage board clears except solitaire mage. 3, DFP, Spirit Lash, and Psychic Scream don't see play outside of solitaire priest. So I don't really give a shit about those, because actual control priest doesn't exist. 4, I played Control Priest exclusively back in the day, so yes I DO know. It is FAR FAR FAR more difficult to deal with early game snowball bullshit now than it was before. Back in the day....oh thank god I got Deathlord in the mulligan and got Belcher for turn 5. Now....fuck me I'm dead before I can even cast DFP. T1 Pirate, T2 Keleseth, T3 Southsea, T4 Creeper, T5 Scalebane,.......T1 1/1 divine sheld taunt, T2 Juggler, T3 Coin + summon 3 more fucking dudes, T4 3 more fucking dudes or a weapon that I now have to somehow deal with....
No. It's FAR more difficult now. Trust me. Back in the day, 3 mana spent meant 3 mana worth of value. Now? Who the fuck knows, it's all about cheating out as much bullshit as you can for free or next to free.
You know that the best deck in the game is Razakus Priest aka a Control Priest, right?
OMG NO WAY! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING! I TAKE IT ALL BACK!!!!
Razakus is combo deck. Combo decks look like control decks because they have to stall until they draw their OTK/burst. But it is not a control deck.
Control and Combo are not mutually exclusive. Control describes the speed of the deck; Combo describes the win condition.
Some Razakus decks are Control-Combo; others are Midrange-Combo. I would expect Aggro to beat the Midrange versions, whereas Control decks are supposed to beat Aggro. The whole reason to play a Control deck is to destroy all the minions in a Aggro deck's early game and run it out of gas. Then you play your win condition, be it a combo or a bunch of large, slow minions, or what have you.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
There isn't any "aggro problem" because cheap Aggro decks are needed for the balance of the game itself. But I agree that the archetypes of aggro that actually are around (or had been in the past, I mean the most unbalanced incarnations) are not good for the game: Team 5 should make them more similar to Midrange, abolishing any power creep that cost less than 3 or 4 mana. In that way also Control decks will not be forced to always mulligan for the same cards in order to survive the first 3 turns of burn damage and try to avoid to be dead by turn 5-6.
I think that if Aggro as an entire archetype will be slowed down a bit (but not removed completly), then everybody will enjoy it more: the Aggro players themselves will have a bigger chance of make some good plays and choices, while Control players can have the chance of develop better their game without be forced to replay the same early plays each game (because there are very few choices that Control have to make in order to survive in the first 4 or 5 turns against an Aggro deck at this days).
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For what profit is it to a man, if he gains the world and loses his own soul?
Is...? Is it 2014? Did I miss something where aggro decks became new and uninteresting?
Aggro means new players feel like champs when they spam shit out due to lacking any "good" cards. Longer term players have more cards and are less encouraged to use aggro decks and instead go down the route of interesting decks. Tempo Storm and co are the original fuckers of this game by loudly and publicly making the least exciting decks with the least variety of cards.
wouldn't blame it on aggro. The problem is that 10 mana minions/spells now cost 5-6 mana. and 5 mana minions cost 0 mana, and all the other cards buff your "regular" cheap minions into becoming 5-10 mana minions. This leaves the game with no interactions, no tactical play, its just about getting those insanely OP cards before your opponent. This obviously leaves the old school control deck at a huge disadvantage, as they want to play 10 mana minions for 10 mana, but its not aggro it self thats the problem, its the fact that blizzard decided to say fuck all to the mana curve, and just shit all over it.
OMG NO WAY! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING! I TAKE IT ALL BACK!!!!
Razakus is combo deck. Combo decks look like control decks because they have to stall until they draw their OTK/burst. But it is not a control deck.
There are 2 really strong priest decks that I would classify as control.
1. Raza priest: This stalls the game like a control deck but then uses a combo finisher.
2. Big priest: This stalls the game then drops big threat after big threat. Pretty much the definition of a classic control deck.
These aren't really control decks. Control looks to remove your threats and turn card advantage into board advantage, sometimes with a single finisher. Raza Priest is a combo deck, which looks to control the board and delay the game until it draws enough burst to kill you. Big Priest is....well...sort of a new "big" archetype, which started with Barnes/Y'Shaarj as sort of a meme in other classes. Neither of these are control decks; they just do some of the same things that control does.
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Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
1. Limit players to one ranked game every X minutes (15?). You can still play casual while you're waiting, and the game will notify you (a la when your friends open a Legendary) when you can queue into Ranked again.
2. The scoring system is completely revamped so that winning gives/takes you stars as follows:
* Win: +1 for each turn (or fraction thereof) your opponent took
* Draw: no change
* Loss: -1 for each turn (or fraction thereof) you took
Nothing else will work without making aggro non-viable, which isn't what we want. We just want both slow and fast decks to reward you appropriately PER UNIT TIME.
I don't think i would want a Hearthstone universe where every game goes to turn 20 and takes 30 minutes...
The game used to be that way years ago. I preferred it, personally.
? did we play the same game? been there since first month, lots of face hunters and zoo, all my friends laughing because I insisted with my control drood...
I am now convinced that people will always say how much of a terror aggro is no matter what the meta currently is.
And the meta currently is dominated by Priest and Warlock. Paladin is creeping up a bit but thats it. Still majority of legend is Priest and Warlock. Not aggro.
1. Limit players to one ranked game every X minutes (15?). You can still play casual while you're waiting, and the game will notify you (a la when your friends open a Legendary) when you can queue into Ranked again.
2. The scoring system is completely revamped so that winning gives/takes you stars as follows:
* Win: +1 for each turn (or fraction thereof) your opponent took
* Draw: no change
* Loss: -1 for each turn (or fraction thereof) you took
Nothing else will work without making aggro non-viable, which isn't what we want. We just want both slow and fast decks to reward you appropriately PER UNIT TIME.
Both are horrible. Anything trying to regulate the game externally, meaning not through cards that directly impact the game, screw the whole game design and balance. People just need to understand that aggro is a perfectly legitimate playstyle.
Hate it so much? Tech better against it or play anti-aggro decks.
I am now convinced that people will always say how much of a terror aggro is no matter what the meta currently is.
And the meta currently is dominated by Priest and Warlock. Paladin is creeping up a bit but thats it. Still majority of legend is Priest and Warlock. Not aggro.
Let me explain the core problem to you:
The speed at which a deck ladders is proportional to (win% - lose%)/AverageGameDuration. This doesn't make an aggro deck with a sub-50% winrate suddenly viable, but it DOES ensure that a deck with a 52% winrate climbs faster than a deck with a 55% winrate whose games are three times the duration. (The winstreak feature does mitigate this somewhat, but only marginally.)
Now obviously, this makes balancing tournament and Ranked Hearthstone simultaneously virtually impossible. Of the two decks I mentioned in the last paragraph, the first would be better in the Ranked meta, while the second would be much better in the tournament meta. This creates a large rift between the eSports image Blizzard tries (tried?) to project for Hearthstone and the meta normal players have access to. Simply put, things you see in tournaments rarely work well on ladder.
On top of that, Blizzard can't safely take risks pushing the envelope on aggro. A 54% winrate fast deck is an absolute monster in Ranked, equivalent to a 58% winrate deck whose games last twice as long. Because of this, the best counter to a successful fast deck in Ranked is usually a different fast deck that happens to have a good matchup against it. It's very easy for Ranked to thus descend into a fast-deck-only meta, where fast decks use their class's anti-aggro/anti-tempo tools in decks that are themselves aggro or tempo, not in the control decks the cards were originally designed for.
So even if you're 100% correct in your current meta analysis (I admit to being primarily an Arena player), it doesn't mean there isn't an underlying problem. If slow decks are dominating the Ranked meta, that means there are nearly zero aggro decks with a winrate above 51% and the tournament meta is a clown fiesta of greed. Doesn't sound good.
1. Limit players to one ranked game every X minutes (15?). You can still play casual while you're waiting, and the game will notify you (a la when your friends open a Legendary) when you can queue into Ranked again.
2. The scoring system is completely revamped so that winning gives/takes you stars as follows:
* Win: +1 for each turn (or fraction thereof) your opponent took
* Draw: no change
* Loss: -1 for each turn (or fraction thereof) you took
Nothing else will work without making aggro non-viable, which isn't what we want. We just want both slow and fast decks to reward you appropriately PER UNIT TIME.
Both are horrible. Anything trying to regulate the game externally, meaning not through cards that directly impact the game, screw the whole game design and balance. People just need to understand that aggro is a perfectly legitimate playstyle.
Hate it so much? Tech better against it or play anti-aggro decks.
Again, laddering speed is (win% - lose%)/AverageGameDuration. There's absolutely nothing unfair or anti-aggro about a Ranked mode where every time a player presses the End Turn button, the stakes go up — it just means players win or lose points proportional to the time they invested in the match, and conceding becomes a more strategically interesting choice.
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OMG NO WAY! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING! I TAKE IT ALL BACK!!!!Razakus is combo deck. Combo decks look like control decks because they have to stall until they draw their OTK/burst. But it is not a control deck.Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
Ayy.
Ayy.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
There isn't any "aggro problem" because cheap Aggro decks are needed for the balance of the game itself. But I agree that the archetypes of aggro that actually are around (or had been in the past, I mean the most unbalanced incarnations) are not good for the game: Team 5 should make them more similar to Midrange, abolishing any power creep that cost less than 3 or 4 mana. In that way also Control decks will not be forced to always mulligan for the same cards in order to survive the first 3 turns of burn damage and try to avoid to be dead by turn 5-6.
I think that if Aggro as an entire archetype will be slowed down a bit (but not removed completly), then everybody will enjoy it more: the Aggro players themselves will have a bigger chance of make some good plays and choices, while Control players can have the chance of develop better their game without be forced to replay the same early plays each game (because there are very few choices that Control have to make in order to survive in the first 4 or 5 turns against an Aggro deck at this days).
For what profit is it to a man, if he gains the world and loses his own soul?
Is...? Is it 2014? Did I miss something where aggro decks became new and uninteresting?
Aggro means new players feel like champs when they spam shit out due to lacking any "good" cards. Longer term players have more cards and are less encouraged to use aggro decks and instead go down the route of interesting decks. Tempo Storm and co are the original fuckers of this game by loudly and publicly making the least exciting decks with the least variety of cards.
Reynad invented zoo, direct your hate to him.
wouldn't blame it on aggro. The problem is that 10 mana minions/spells now cost 5-6 mana. and 5 mana minions cost 0 mana, and all the other cards buff your "regular" cheap minions into becoming 5-10 mana minions. This leaves the game with no interactions, no tactical play, its just about getting those insanely OP cards before your opponent. This obviously leaves the old school control deck at a huge disadvantage, as they want to play 10 mana minions for 10 mana, but its not aggro it self thats the problem, its the fact that blizzard decided to say fuck all to the mana curve, and just shit all over it.
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
Not an issue l2play.
Don't be a whiney bitch.
There are two possible methods:
1. Limit players to one ranked game every X minutes (15?). You can still play casual while you're waiting, and the game will notify you (a la when your friends open a Legendary) when you can queue into Ranked again.
2. The scoring system is completely revamped so that winning gives/takes you stars as follows:
* Win: +1 for each turn (or fraction thereof) your opponent took
* Draw: no change
* Loss: -1 for each turn (or fraction thereof) you took
Nothing else will work without making aggro non-viable, which isn't what we want. We just want both slow and fast decks to reward you appropriately PER UNIT TIME.
I am now convinced that people will always say how much of a terror aggro is no matter what the meta currently is.
And the meta currently is dominated by Priest and Warlock. Paladin is creeping up a bit but thats it. Still majority of legend is Priest and Warlock. Not aggro.
No one complained the first few weeks. It's now that aggro is back in action. Maybe you were talking about another game?
Arena Leaderboard EU - September 2018: #47 (@7.77 Wins Average)