I am noticing that people who play non aggro decks think they are superior in play to aggro players, and they think aggro decks are easy. Obviously any sensible person sees through this but why do people still think aggro decks are easy wins. Also people using the argument that people trying to get easy legend always use aggro decks is wrong. Trying to use aggro to hit fast legend is because of the speed of aggro matches, not skill. Any thoughts?
Yeah because playing your 1 drop on turn 1 and then your 2 drop on turn 2 and then your 3 drop in turn 3 is really hard... or playing your 3 1 drops in turn 6 and then going for divine favor to refill your hand sure is super skill intensive... I'm not a salty baby that says all aggro only players are brainless potatoes but you can't possibly argue that playing any aggro deck is harder and requires more skill and thought that any heavy control or combo deck for example. Also yeah, the fact that a lot of people play aggro to push to legend is mainly because of the fast games but having to think less helps a bit doesn't it?
Aggro decks are not easy, they are just easier on average than control and combo decks. In essence, you can achieve about a 50% winrate with an aggro deck even if you aren't very good while the same can't be said for other deck archetypes.
Generally people who feel morally superior because they play x type of deck over x type are just full of themselves and basically very limited in their understanding of the game.
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I think the people you are talking about are more stubborn then superior. And if they truly were as smart as they think they are they would spend less time whining about it as then they would understand the whining could be spend better doing pretty much anything else.
Aggro decks target ending the game or losing before full mana is reached. This tends to negate a significant portion of the game, thus invalidating cards in the opponent's deck. Some play this type of deck because they are still learning to play the game, and there is less to manage (or so it seems to a novice). The real power in an aggro deck is the consistency. Because there are no 'heavy' late-game type cards, the draws tend to be more immediately useful than a control build. This is why it seems aggro always top-decks just what they need - fueling the 'brainless' critique, when in fact, it was by design.
Because Aggro is easier and faster. I got sick of bouncing around 8-10 with different mid range decks and played Aggro Paladin for 30 games and got to rank 5. Now im about sick of running into nothing but Mages and Warlocks so ill likely switch back to aggro again. It sucks because i want other decks to be good, but they just can't keep up
Aggro just happens to be the easiest of the easy. And we're in a time when control is both viable and retarded too! Were playing on curve and going face hard concepts to grasp, it wouldn't be the primary archetype to be botted to Legend.
When people accuse aggro of being brainless, they are being hypocritical, since HS was intentionally made to be playable by monkeys. Saying it's cancer? Sure, go ahead, but most players require more of their intestines than their brains to play this game.
On the other hand, the AggroLivesMatter crew will spout the biggest bullshit to feign difficulty in otherwise linear gameplans. Think I'm wrong? Give it a few hours and someone will say something like: "Picking the right small minion to play is important." "Playing around board clears requires skill." "Going face instead of trading is a risky strategy which might backfire." If you inspect closely, you will see that all of these excuses can literally apply to any deck with a few changes in wording.
TL;DR: Moral superiority in HS is a hoax. Aggro is indeed brainless, but that's not the reason why you should hate on it.
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
It's because the faster deck will sometimes win matches without having made seemingly any decisions if the controlling deck doesnt have answers. If you just spent your mana and hit face you can win a decent amount of your games as aggro and it because that strategy is extremely simple, some people assume that aggro is really easy.
"I lost a game, the opponent just spent his mana and hit face, what a easy and scummy deck".
The gameplan of the fastests decks are very simple but the they have very deep gameplay and decision making because you have to fight a hand full of unknown unlike control where you mostly have to counter the visible on board and play around 1-2 cards in the hand.
Complexity vs depth are two concepts in gaming that a lot of people dont understand.
Look, when I wait 4 months for new cards to come out and I have to dust almost everything that costs more than 5 mana because games are over by turn 6, I'm gonna disrespect aggro.
This game is at it's healthiest when the strongest decks are the most difficult to play.
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Look at this thing and let me know what you think!
As others have said, Hearthstone is rarely that difficult.
The problem with Aggro/Tempo decks, however, is it's not even difficult; it's just play the glowing card. Period.
If you play a Tier 1 aggro/tempo deck, randomly play a lit up card, you can hit Legend. People have done it.
If you play a Tier 1 control deck, randomly play a lit up card, you'll go sub 40% win rate. Now, the flip side is the decisions for Control are typically not THAT hard.. and the decks that require very high skill are very rarely high tier. Patron Warrior was the most notable exception.
Because people confuse skill floor with skill ceiling.
Control decks generally have a higher skill floor. This is because at a basic level the default of an aggro is playing your own game plan. The default game plan of a control deck is disrupting your opponent's game plan which requires the added knowledge of your opponent's game plan.
However skill ceiling is different to skill floor. Both proactive and reactive decks need knowledge of the opponents deck and game plan. Generally decks with multiple different win conditions have higher skill ceilings.
Reach is also something that increases the skill ceiling of a deck. The much maligned aggro shaman deck was found by vicious syndicate to have a high skill ceiling. Which means that the deck performed significantly better when piloted by top players as compared to other decks. The deck also had a low skill floor as you could just go 'face' and do moderately well.
Its really simple. When 90% of your games consists of puking your hand onto the table and either making reasonable trades or going face with everything, theres not much respect to be had. Theres little to no skill involved. What ticks people off are that its actually easy to achieve relative high win rates with this stragedy. Some of us want games to be determined by making the best decisions, not by lack of them.
I am noticing that people who play non aggro decks think they are superior in play to aggro players, and they think aggro decks are easy. Obviously any sensible person sees through this but why do people still think aggro decks are easy wins. Also people using the argument that people trying to get easy legend always use aggro decks is wrong. Trying to use aggro to hit fast legend is because of the speed of aggro matches, not skill. Any thoughts
People think that aggro decks are easy because they lose to them. That's it. Control decks don't require much more skill, hearthstone is a simple game, but calling a deck "braindead" means only that you didn't understood it.
Take today for example. I was playing Big Spell Mage at Legend.
Big Spell Mage isn't crazy skill intensive; you generally remove things and only play big minions when you're safe. But, you need to time your AOEs, know what your opponent is likely playing, and at least have an evolving plan. You also have room to outplay; ie.. I saved Polymorph for the Paladin Legendary weapon's buffed minion.
I played 5 Smorc Paladins at Legend today. 4 of them ignored my Arcane Artificer on board, choosing instead to get 2 or 3 damage to face, and allowing me to heal the next turn. One of them realized his mistake and hit it the next turn; the other 3 left it on the board for at least one more turn, choosing FACE damage over clearing the minion. I responded by playing high mana spells, even though I didn't particularly need to or get value off of them, knowing that hitting a certain health total would effectively negate his deck. I won all 4. I probably should not have won any of them.
These are LEGEND players. The same thing was a constant with Pirate Warrior. At legend they'd avoid value trades and let me back into the game. The reason is simple; over a large sample size of games you are MUCH less punished for misplays with Aggro vs. Control.
If I'm Control and I have one AOE in hand, I use it to clear 8 damage but the opponent then puts 16 damage on the board next turn, I lose for my mistake.
If I'm aggro and I go face instead of value trading, get everything AOE'd down and leave enemy minions up, I can still draw burn and win a lot of the time.
But really, that's on Blizzard. They need more interesting designs to make Aggro players think. Second-rate Bruiser was a great example of that, although underpowered in execution (these days it's just named "Tar Creeper.") They've tried to do this with things like Spreading OP and different heal minions, but almost always fall on the side of too weak (obviously Spreading Plague aside.) The reality is most Hearthstone players play Aggro, it's quick, easy, and losing a game isn't as painful, so Blizzard is very hesitant to put strong counters in place.
Hopefully they will come up with some better designed cards that make Aggro players think when building decks and randomly dropping stuff on curve.
Aggro just happens to be the easiest of the easy. And we're in a time when control is both viable and ******** too! Were playing on curve and going face hard concepts to grasp, it wouldn't be the primary archetype to be botted to Legend.
When people accuse aggro of being brainless, they are being hypocritical, since HS was intentionally made to be playable by monkeys. Saying it's cancer? Sure, go ahead, but most players require more of their intestines than their brains to play this game.
On the other hand, the AggroLivesMatter crew will spout the biggest bullshit to feign difficulty in otherwise linear gameplans. Think I'm wrong? Give it a few hours and someone will say something like: "Picking the right small minion to play is important." "Playing around board clears requires skill." "Going face instead of trading is a risky strategy which might backfire." If you inspect closely, you will see that all of these excuses can literally apply to any deck with a few changes in wording.
TL;DR: Moral superiority in HS is a hoax. Aggro is indeed brainless, but that's not the reason why you should hate on it.
ye what a surprise its the same players winning every time, hs is just an rng fest and there is no chance or math involved
at least it is when ur stuck at rank 15
One player rolls the dice 1000 times, another rolls the dice 20. Using the math you so gloriously praise, maybe you can figure out which one is more likely to end up rolling it high enough times in a row to get to Legend.
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
From when the expansion came out i have been using a homebrew deck in ladder with success untill 8. Then i started finding gold portrait users playing top metadecks. I am not complaining about this,but,do you really think that i am going to waste a whole day to lose at razakus priests just to see the end coming in one turn even with 30 armor and 20 health? I am sorry, i really would love to play control decks but untill this aggroshitfiesta continues i am gonna spam face as much as i can on ladder. So far in terms of time while i was doing a single match,and probably losing to broken and glitchy interactions such as cubes and velen, i can do 3 or maybe 4 matches,if my opponents are fast enough on plays. And trust me, i dont fucking like this.Maybe if there were more viable control cards i would have refused to join the face train.But right now it seems unavaoidable.
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Best quotes: "Casual is perfectly fine" "warlock is not overpowered" "Playing odd paladin just to test it"
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I am noticing that people who play non aggro decks think they are superior in play to aggro players, and they think aggro decks are easy. Obviously any sensible person sees through this but why do people still think aggro decks are easy wins. Also people using the argument that people trying to get easy legend always use aggro decks is wrong. Trying to use aggro to hit fast legend is because of the speed of aggro matches, not skill. Any thoughts?
Yeah because playing your 1 drop on turn 1 and then your 2 drop on turn 2 and then your 3 drop in turn 3 is really hard... or playing your 3 1 drops in turn 6 and then going for divine favor to refill your hand sure is super skill intensive... I'm not a salty baby that says all aggro only players are brainless potatoes but you can't possibly argue that playing any aggro deck is harder and requires more skill and thought that any heavy control or combo deck for example. Also yeah, the fact that a lot of people play aggro to push to legend is mainly because of the fast games but having to think less helps a bit doesn't it?
Aggro decks are not easy, they are just easier on average than control and combo decks. In essence, you can achieve about a 50% winrate with an aggro deck even if you aren't very good while the same can't be said for other deck archetypes.
Generally people who feel morally superior because they play x type of deck over x type are just full of themselves and basically very limited in their understanding of the game.
And if they truly were as smart as they think they are they would spend less time whining about it as then they would understand the whining could be spend better doing pretty much anything else.
Aggro decks target ending the game or losing before full mana is reached. This tends to negate a significant portion of the game, thus invalidating cards in the opponent's deck. Some play this type of deck because they are still learning to play the game, and there is less to manage (or so it seems to a novice). The real power in an aggro deck is the consistency. Because there are no 'heavy' late-game type cards, the draws tend to be more immediately useful than a control build. This is why it seems aggro always top-decks just what they need - fueling the 'brainless' critique, when in fact, it was by design.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
Because Aggro is easier and faster. I got sick of bouncing around 8-10 with different mid range decks and played Aggro Paladin for 30 games and got to rank 5. Now im about sick of running into nothing but Mages and Warlocks so ill likely switch back to aggro again. It sucks because i want other decks to be good, but they just can't keep up
playing right now at rank 5 with a N'zoth Spitefull Summoner Paladin. My last 5 matches were Mage Warlock Mage Mage Warlock.......so salty
Can't fit 2 Eaters and 2 Silences and still make the deck cool.
Because HS is not a super complicated to begin with, and it's even easier if you just drop 2 drops and hit the face.
Fast games make for easy fast ranking and then the fact that aggro decks are all the same and unimaginative.
I'd rather die from Temporus OTK deck than any boring aggro deck again.
Real talk, HS is an easy game to play.
Aggro just happens to be the easiest of the easy. And we're in a time when control is both viable and retarded too! Were playing on curve and going face hard concepts to grasp, it wouldn't be the primary archetype to be botted to Legend.
When people accuse aggro of being brainless, they are being hypocritical, since HS was intentionally made to be playable by monkeys. Saying it's cancer? Sure, go ahead, but most players require more of their intestines than their brains to play this game.
On the other hand, the AggroLivesMatter crew will spout the biggest bullshit to feign difficulty in otherwise linear gameplans. Think I'm wrong? Give it a few hours and someone will say something like: "Picking the right small minion to play is important." "Playing around board clears requires skill." "Going face instead of trading is a risky strategy which might backfire." If you inspect closely, you will see that all of these excuses can literally apply to any deck with a few changes in wording.
TL;DR: Moral superiority in HS is a hoax. Aggro is indeed brainless, but that's not the reason why you should hate on it.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
It's because the faster deck will sometimes win matches without having made seemingly any decisions if the controlling deck doesnt have answers. If you just spent your mana and hit face you can win a decent amount of your games as aggro and it because that strategy is extremely simple, some people assume that aggro is really easy.
"I lost a game, the opponent just spent his mana and hit face, what a easy and scummy deck".
The gameplan of the fastests decks are very simple but the they have very deep gameplay and decision making because you have to fight a hand full of unknown unlike control where you mostly have to counter the visible on board and play around 1-2 cards in the hand.
Complexity vs depth are two concepts in gaming that a lot of people dont understand.
Look, when I wait 4 months for new cards to come out and I have to dust almost everything that costs more than 5 mana because games are over by turn 6, I'm gonna disrespect aggro.
This game is at it's healthiest when the strongest decks are the most difficult to play.
Look at this thing and let me know what you think!
As others have said, Hearthstone is rarely that difficult.
The problem with Aggro/Tempo decks, however, is it's not even difficult; it's just play the glowing card. Period.
If you play a Tier 1 aggro/tempo deck, randomly play a lit up card, you can hit Legend. People have done it.
If you play a Tier 1 control deck, randomly play a lit up card, you'll go sub 40% win rate. Now, the flip side is the decisions for Control are typically not THAT hard.. and the decks that require very high skill are very rarely high tier. Patron Warrior was the most notable exception.
Yeah thats 100% true. Aggro decks are slightly easier, but by no means always easy.
Nut draws happen in every deck. I agree that aggro decks are in fact easier but not easy
Because people confuse skill floor with skill ceiling.
Control decks generally have a higher skill floor. This is because at a basic level the default of an aggro is playing your own game plan. The default game plan of a control deck is disrupting your opponent's game plan which requires the added knowledge of your opponent's game plan.
However skill ceiling is different to skill floor. Both proactive and reactive decks need knowledge of the opponents deck and game plan. Generally decks with multiple different win conditions have higher skill ceilings.
Reach is also something that increases the skill ceiling of a deck. The much maligned aggro shaman deck was found by vicious syndicate to have a high skill ceiling. Which means that the deck performed significantly better when piloted by top players as compared to other decks. The deck also had a low skill floor as you could just go 'face' and do moderately well.
Its really simple. When 90% of your games consists of puking your hand onto the table and either making reasonable trades or going face with everything, theres not much respect to be had. Theres little to no skill involved. What ticks people off are that its actually easy to achieve relative high win rates with this stragedy. Some of us want games to be determined by making the best decisions, not by lack of them.
Take today for example. I was playing Big Spell Mage at Legend.
Big Spell Mage isn't crazy skill intensive; you generally remove things and only play big minions when you're safe. But, you need to time your AOEs, know what your opponent is likely playing, and at least have an evolving plan. You also have room to outplay; ie.. I saved Polymorph for the Paladin Legendary weapon's buffed minion.
I played 5 Smorc Paladins at Legend today. 4 of them ignored my Arcane Artificer on board, choosing instead to get 2 or 3 damage to face, and allowing me to heal the next turn. One of them realized his mistake and hit it the next turn; the other 3 left it on the board for at least one more turn, choosing FACE damage over clearing the minion. I responded by playing high mana spells, even though I didn't particularly need to or get value off of them, knowing that hitting a certain health total would effectively negate his deck. I won all 4. I probably should not have won any of them.
These are LEGEND players. The same thing was a constant with Pirate Warrior. At legend they'd avoid value trades and let me back into the game. The reason is simple; over a large sample size of games you are MUCH less punished for misplays with Aggro vs. Control.
If I'm Control and I have one AOE in hand, I use it to clear 8 damage but the opponent then puts 16 damage on the board next turn, I lose for my mistake.
If I'm aggro and I go face instead of value trading, get everything AOE'd down and leave enemy minions up, I can still draw burn and win a lot of the time.
But really, that's on Blizzard. They need more interesting designs to make Aggro players think. Second-rate Bruiser was a great example of that, although underpowered in execution (these days it's just named "Tar Creeper.") They've tried to do this with things like Spreading OP and different heal minions, but almost always fall on the side of too weak (obviously Spreading Plague aside.) The reality is most Hearthstone players play Aggro, it's quick, easy, and losing a game isn't as painful, so Blizzard is very hesitant to put strong counters in place.
Hopefully they will come up with some better designed cards that make Aggro players think when building decks and randomly dropping stuff on curve.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
From when the expansion came out i have been using a homebrew deck in ladder with success untill 8.
Then i started finding gold portrait users playing top metadecks.
I am not complaining about this,but,do you really think that i am going to waste a whole day to lose at razakus priests just to see the end coming in one turn even with 30 armor and 20 health?
I am sorry, i really would love to play control decks but untill this aggroshitfiesta continues i am gonna spam face as much as i can on ladder.
So far in terms of time while i was doing a single match,and probably losing to broken and glitchy interactions such as cubes and velen, i can do 3 or maybe 4 matches,if my opponents are fast enough on plays.
And trust me, i dont fucking like this.Maybe if there were more viable control cards i would have refused to join the face train.But right now it seems unavaoidable.
Best quotes:
"Casual is perfectly fine"
"warlock is not overpowered"
"Playing odd paladin just to test it"