It doesn't seems solitaire after seeing on RDU, DOG, and other pro streams.
I know that Dead's man is quite difficult and challenging, which is good. But from the pro streamers Mage exodia seems quite complex too at high ranks, ofc.
Are you talking from your own experience by playing it or by playing against it ?
To be honest, you will find both these decks get boring veeerrrrry quickly. In part, because both take extreme setups to achieve a win (and quite a bit of luck).
Dead man's hand takes more skill than Exodia, since there is a lot a card-counting and tracking that you need to do.
But with both (from experience), the pay-off feels so cheap and pointless, that the hard work to get there just isn't worth it. It's a cheap win sure, bt certainly not much fun. There are vastly more fuin decks out there to play right now! ;-)
There have been many hints that Ice Block is likely to move to the Hall of Fame on the next rotation (probably April 2018). If that happens, any Mage deck that has to stall for a win condition will have a much harder time in Standard.
It doesn't seems solitaire after seeing on RDU, DOG, and other pro streams.
I know that Dead's man is quite difficult and challenging, which is good. But from the pro streamers Mage exodia seems quite complex too at high ranks, ofc.
Are you talking from your own experience by playing it or by playing against it ?
There is not a single HS player with relevant playing experience with Exodia Mage (like 500 games or more with a 51% or higher winrate) that will tell you Exodia is a solitaire deck. He is talking from his experience playing against the deck, not with the deck. Generally speaking, most negative comments or simply illogical allegations that people make towards decks or strategies, are done so by people with little to no relevant experience with and even against those decks or strategies. People will relevant experience already understand the decks, know strengths and weaknesses, and as such, have no need to make those claims.
If we are to talk about this from a factual standpoint, the closest thing in Hearthstone to a Solitaire deck, are Hyper Aggressive decks. They are the only decks that can decide an entire game without allowing the opponent to have any influence in it's outcome. If an Hyper Aggro deck kills you on turn 3 or 4 without you having drawn any single card you could play, which is not uncommon, then you just experienced a Solitaire game, he decided the game on his own and you had literally no influence in the outcome. The moment you played a card, even if it was just to kill one of his minions, it stops being Solitaire, as you influenced the outcomes of the game, even if it didn't change it. Simple facts that people don't think about. A deck like Exodia, it can't ever play Solitaire, since it is always forced to account for the opponents plays to stay alive. It cannot ignore all of the opponent's actions and expect to win.
Even if it is true that playing against Quest Mage can be very frustrating especially if they get all the blocking cards I totally agree with you that the deck is fair, with a mechanic build to kill heavy control decks.
It doesn't seems solitaire after seeing on RDU, DOG, and other pro streams.
I know that Dead's man is quite difficult and challenging, which is good. But from the pro streamers Mage exodia seems quite complex too at high ranks, ofc.
Are you talking from your own experience by playing it or by playing against it ?
There is not a single HS player with relevant playing experience with Exodia Mage (like 500 games or more with a 51% or higher winrate) that will tell you Exodia is a solitaire deck. He is talking from his experience playing against the deck, not with the deck. Generally speaking, most negative comments or simply illogical allegations that people make towards decks or strategies, are done so by people with little to no relevant experience with and even against those decks or strategies. People will relevant experience already understand the decks, know strengths and weaknesses, and as such, have no need to make those claims.
If we are to talk about this from a factual standpoint, the closest thing in Hearthstone to a Solitaire deck, are Hyper Aggressive decks. They are the only decks that can decide an entire game without allowing the opponent to have any influence in it's outcome. If an Hyper Aggro deck kills you on turn 3 or 4 without you having drawn any single card you could play, which is not uncommon, then you just experienced a Solitaire game, he decided the game on his own and you had literally no influence in the outcome. The moment you played a card, even if it was just to kill one of his minions, it stops being Solitaire, as you influenced the outcomes of the game, even if it didn't change it. Simple facts that people don't think about. A deck like Exodia, it can't ever play Solitaire, since it is always forced to account for the opponents plays to stay alive. It cannot ignore all of the opponent's actions and expect to win.
It doesn't seems solitaire after seeing on RDU, DOG, and other pro streams.
I know that Dead's man is quite difficult and challenging, which is good. But from the pro streamers Mage exodia seems quite complex too at high ranks, ofc.
Are you talking from your own experience by playing it or by playing against it ?
There is not a single HS player with relevant playing experience with Exodia Mage (like 500 games or more with a 51% or higher winrate) that will tell you Exodia is a solitaire deck. He is talking from his experience playing against the deck, not with the deck. Generally speaking, most negative comments or simply illogical allegations that people make towards decks or strategies, are done so by people with little to no relevant experience with and even against those decks or strategies. People will relevant experience already understand the decks, know strengths and weaknesses, and as such, have no need to make those claims.
If we are to talk about this from a factual standpoint, the closest thing in Hearthstone to a Solitaire deck, are Hyper Aggressive decks. They are the only decks that can decide an entire game without allowing the opponent to have any influence in it's outcome. If an Hyper Aggro deck kills you on turn 3 or 4 without you having drawn any single card you could play, which is not uncommon, then you just experienced a Solitaire game, he decided the game on his own and you had literally no influence in the outcome. The moment you played a card, even if it was just to kill one of his minions, it stops being Solitaire, as you influenced the outcomes of the game, even if it didn't change it. Simple facts that people don't think about. A deck like Exodia, it can't ever play Solitaire, since it is always forced to account for the opponents plays to stay alive. It cannot ignore all of the opponent's actions and expect to win.
I do say the deck is solitare because even though i tech in 2 DIRTY RATS I never draw them or if I do they pull one apprentice. And for those people saying to wait until they use all their minion draw they get the quest complete at 3 spells and kill me.I do not care about winrate of a deck like quest mage because being able to kill you with infinite damage in one turn is just the most unfair thing.I wish loatheb was still around it would ease that match and priest a lot more and no i will not play wild.
Exodia Mage imo. Dead mans hand is a really bad deck in this meta. I know some people can have a 40% win rate and still have fun but for most of us that's just too frustrating to deal with. Exodia Mage at least has the potential to be good if you queue into a lot of priests and jade druids. Also the exodia deck can be played in different ways and sometimes you have to roll the dice and go all in to try to win before you have your quest done or all your cards drawn which makes the deck very fun.
I do say the deck is solitare because even though i tech in 2 DIRTY RATS I never draw them or if I do they pull one apprentice. And for those people saying to wait until they use all their minion draw they get the quest complete at 3 spells and kill me.I do not care about winrate of a deck like quest mage because being able to kill you with infinite damage in one turn is just the most unfair thing.I wish loatheb was still around it would ease that match and priest a lot more and no i will not play wild.
A deck is not solitaire because you don't draw your Tech cards or don't beat them with it. A deck is Solitaire when it finishes the entire game without the opponent having ANY kind of influence or input in the game. No matter what deck you are using against the Exodia Mage, you always influence the game. You play minions, which the Mage is forced to deal with, she cannot ignore them, you attack her, you can burn her, you can use Tech cards to stop her game plan. All of this is influence you have in the game, if you didn't have any influence, you wouldn't play minions or do anything at all, you would just sit there for 20 turns playing no card at all while the Mage would draw and execute the Combo without having NOTHING to worry about. Has that EVER happened to you? A game against an Exodia Mage where the Exodia Mage won the game and you didn't play a single card the entire game? I doubt it. So no, it's a deck you don't like to play against, but it's not Solitaire.
Also you have Nerubian Unraveler, against Exodia Mage, it does the same thing as Loatheb, it stops the Exodia Turn, they need to spend one turn dealing with that minion before they can Combo you.
The problem with Exodia (or freeze Mage in general), is they have too many turns where you can do nothing and no matter your board can you do anything. Frost nova x2, blizzard x2 and ice Block x2. And now primordial glyph into more freezes. No other control deck has that. The vast majorities of decks have no counter play to that. Warrior has 2 brawls and that’s it. Every other removal can be played around with enough minion health or having multiple minions on board.
There is not a single HS player with relevant playing experience with Exodia Mage (like 500 games or more with a 51% or higher winrate) that will tell you Exodia is a solitaire deck. He is talking from his experience playing against the deck, not with the deck. Generally speaking, most negative comments or simply illogical allegations that people make towards decks or strategies, are done so by people with little to no relevant experience with and even against those decks or strategies. People will relevant experience already understand the decks, know strengths and weaknesses, and as such, have no need to make those claims.
If we are to talk about this from a factual standpoint, the closest thing in Hearthstone to a Solitaire deck, are Hyper Aggressive decks. They are the only decks that can decide an entire game without allowing the opponent to have any influence in it's outcome. If an Hyper Aggro deck kills you on turn 3 or 4 without you having drawn any single card you could play, which is not uncommon, then you just experienced a Solitaire game, he decided the game on his own and you had literally no influence in the outcome. The moment you played a card, even if it was just to kill one of his minions, it stops being Solitaire, as you influenced the outcomes of the game, even if it didn't change it. Simple facts that people don't think about. A deck like Exodia, it can't ever play Solitaire, since it is always forced to account for the opponents plays to stay alive. It cannot ignore all of the opponent's actions and expect to win.
I would just like to expand on your first paragraph to counter your second paragraph. =P
While hyper aggressive decks can be non-interactive if you don't draw anything playable against them, the reality is that you should draw something playable in most games and if you're consistently unable to, then it's because your deck is not well constructed to get a good enough chance at the right draws; there are proper ratios for low-cost, mid-cost and high-cost cards. A great example is a game I played against a Keleseth Zoolock (with Control Warrior) where he got a turn-2 Keleseth and basically swamped me with value all game. I lost but not before almost taking control of the board and stabilizing; had I drawn just slightly better I might have been able to win. There was a high degree of interaction that game and while you're right and I did lose due to bad luck, that's only because he drew perfectly and I really didn't come close to that. In short, everything you say in the first paragraph largely holds true for hyper-aggressive decks as well.
The problem with Exodia (or freeze Mage in general), is they have too many turns where you can do nothing and no matter your board can you do anything. Frost nova x2, blizzard x2 and ice Block x2. And now primordial glyph into more freezes. No other control deck has that. The vast majorities of decks have no counter play to that. Warrior has 2 brawls and that’s it. Every other removal can be played around with enough minion health or having multiple minions on board.
The "I can't do anything" state is a natural part of this and most card game. It is, for example, the norm in many control vs. control matchups, as the nature of these decks tend to be to hold back your answers until your opponent has none left. Exodia Mage is a control deck by nature (even if people consider it a "combo deck" instead) but it's also one that's inherently geared towards beating other control decks... so of course it creates this situation. It's not solitaire; all decisions to do nothing are based on the behavior of the other player. There are cards other classes can play against Exodia Mage, from Charge minions, to Counterspell, to burn spells, to disruption cards like Dirty Rat, Gnomeferatu, and Death Grip, and in fact with that last in mind, with The Lich King and Ysera you effectively turn the "haha you can't do anything" turns to your advantage by generating powerful cards every turn your opponent stalls you; hold back removal for their Doomsayers and you've got it made the second they run out of something.
Stop considering every turn where you can't actually play a card an uninteractive turn and start considering strategies around this fact. In a card game, holding back cards is a necessary thing anyway. You can punish overuse of Frost Novas and Blizzards by playing out one or two minions and hitting your opponent with them enough that they have to use these cards before you flood the board.
Also you have Nerubian Unraveler, against Exodia Mage, it does the same thing as Loatheb, it stops the Exodia Turn, they need to spend one turn dealing with that minion before they can Combo you.
Gota throw in a double down on this answer. I play Exodia a lot, and Nerubian Unraveler is like, super good against Exodia, I think I probably won... Maybe once? When it was played against me. If you really hate Exodia that much (and it ever becomes part of the meta enough to notice) run it and laugh your way to an almost 100% win rate against them. Standard exodia doesn't run anything that can kill the nerubian outside of doomsayer, so flood the board to pull out the doomsayers or keep back removal for them (should be easy since they also don't run anything else you should feel a pressing need to remove.) And you'll force them to tortuously rely on either random spells that can kill it or extremely slowly knocking it down with things like blizzards and pings (and if you're a priest or a paladin you can just heal/buff it up so they can't even do that.) Which is almost always way way way too slow. I think (against this specific deck) it's probably even better then Loatheb. They'll both put off the combo by at least one turn, but the Unraveler sometimes just makes the game actually impossible for the mage to win.
I was actually refering to the perfect draws in which a Hyper Aggro deck manages to complete the turn by turn 3 or 4, when you simply didn't play a SINGLE card, where you literally didn't do anything that game. This is what a SOLITAIRE game consists of. The Zoolock example is just a normal Aggro Vs Control match where you still managed to play cards, but were still crushed by a perfect draw. Even if it felt like you couldn't do anything, you still had interaction and influence on the game, you likely slowed down his progress in the game. That is not solitaire. The part of having a good balanced of costs, it's not the relevant point. Even with a well balanced cost deck, you will still be playing games where a Hyper Aggro deck manages to play Solitaire because you drew badly. It will happen. Solitaire games in Hearthstone happen, more often than they should, no matter how well optimized your deck is, it's just how it works in a game that relies on Tempo and that Snowballs tremendously.
Exodia Mage is a Control Combo deck, all Combo decks fall within the 3 Archetypes of Aggro, Midrange and Control, Exodia, just like Freeze, falls in the Control side. Something like Miracle for example, falls in the Midrange type. The rest is correct, but most players don't really think about it. Playing around cards, holding resources, knowing how to force opponent cards and such, that kind of stuff should be basic to most players, but it has become extremely obvious in my time playing the game, that most players don't bother thinking about any of these aspects of the game.
Fair enough, I'm just not sure I've ever played a game where I couldn't play a single card by turn 4. Maybe turn 3 though. xP
As for the bolded part.. you're exactly right and I have the same impression, but the simple fact is they're going to have to think about them if they want to be taken seriously when discussing the game. If you want to refuse to learn basic strategy in the game while playing it, that's your business, but if you want to discuss the game seriously or actually argue what kind of decks are good or bad, what changes should be made, and actively judge players based on the decks they play or build... people are going to call you out on your ignorance. =P (Not you specifically, obv, just, you know people who don't pay attention to this stuff.)
Exodia Quest mage is boring af. Just stall and draw, nothing in between except random spell discovering. Less fun to play & play against than old freeze mage. The deck might take some skill to pilot when you play against aggressive deck and have to make some unorthodox play but most of the time it feels like you're playing against AI.
Fair enough, I'm just not sure I've ever played a game where I couldn't play a single card by turn 4. Maybe turn 3 though. xP
As for the bolded part.. you're exactly right and I have the same impression, but the simple fact is they're going to have to think about them if they want to be taken seriously when discussing the game. If you want to refuse to learn basic strategy in the game while playing it, that's your business, but if you want to discuss the game seriously or actually argue what kind of decks are good or bad, what changes should be made, and actively judge players based on the decks they play or build... people are going to call you out on your ignorance. =P (Not you specifically, obv, just, you know people who don't pay attention to this stuff.)
Indeed. My stance is always to only enter an argument or discussion if I'm actually certain of what I'm talking about, if I have enough experience and knowledge on the matter to discuss it. I wish most people did the same. I enjoy constructive discussion, as long as it is between people that know what they are talking about. When it comes to Hearthstone, it's so funny to see many players trying to discuss decks and strategies that they have no relevante experience with. Generally relying on the 10 or so games they played with or against a deck or strategy. (I don't consider myself with enough knowledge to comment on certain decks and their power if I'm not over 100 or more games with that deck, 50 at an absolute minimum... but somehow the 10 games most players have with the decks seem to be enough for them)...
It might annoy you then to discover that I am mostly doing the same. =P
But then one of my specialties is being quick on the uptake, so the amount of experience I need to understand something is not the same as most people's (not to be arrogant; there are other things I suck at that most other people don't). I also think it's fine to discuss things you don't necessarily have adequate experience with as long as you don't necessarily speak completely adamantly about it or are willing to concede points when you are clearly proven wrong.
But yeah I actually have never really fought an Exodia Mage more than like, once, maybe? I don't know why but it's just not a deck I run into. But I've seen the deck in action before in videos and I've seen the decklist so I understand the principles; my general knowledge of the game is enough, I think, to understand the myriad of ways to counteract its strategy.
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Guys, is hat time of the season when you want something new.
I don't have the cards for these two decks (mage exodia & dead's man hand) and I don't know which one is more challenging and fun.
What is your experience ?
Thx,
Well if you like solitare play exodia mage , if you like to think and get a diffcult yet satisfying win play deadmans hand fatigue.
Yes, I'm reffering to Mage Exodia.
Do you see it viable in the future expansions as an archetype ?
Thanks for sharing,
It doesn't seems solitaire after seeing on RDU, DOG, and other pro streams.
I know that Dead's man is quite difficult and challenging, which is good. But from the pro streamers Mage exodia seems quite complex too at high ranks, ofc.
Are you talking from your own experience by playing it or by playing against it ?
This was my impression too, especially from RDU stream. Even he said the deck is very challenging.
To be honest, you will find both these decks get boring veeerrrrry quickly.
In part, because both take extreme setups to achieve a win (and quite a bit of luck).
Dead man's hand takes more skill than Exodia, since there is a lot a card-counting and tracking that you need to do.
But with both (from experience), the pay-off feels so cheap and pointless, that the hard work to get there just isn't worth it. It's a cheap win sure, bt certainly not much fun. There are vastly more fuin decks out there to play right now! ;-)
There have been many hints that Ice Block is likely to move to the Hall of Fame on the next rotation (probably April 2018). If that happens, any Mage deck that has to stall for a win condition will have a much harder time in Standard.
Exodia Mage imo. Dead mans hand is a really bad deck in this meta. I know some people can have a 40% win rate and still have fun but for most of us that's just too frustrating to deal with. Exodia Mage at least has the potential to be good if you queue into a lot of priests and jade druids. Also the exodia deck can be played in different ways and sometimes you have to roll the dice and go all in to try to win before you have your quest done or all your cards drawn which makes the deck very fun.
Exodia Quest mage is boring af. Just stall and draw, nothing in between except random spell discovering. Less fun to play & play against than old freeze mage. The deck might take some skill to pilot when you play against aggressive deck and have to make some unorthodox play but most of the time it feels like you're playing against AI.
If you're looking for a fun, challenging deck, I highly recommend Miracle rogue.
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Hit rank 15 with a homebrew back in the KOFT days.
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