As soon as a new meta report comes out, a large number of the netdeckers (aka 95% of the people that play this game) immediately switch to whatever deck is deemed to be OP/top tier. The smart people use the reports to try to counter the meta, but we are in the minority. I absolutely love the information they provide, but, sadly, I think it is contributing to popular decks snowballing into oppressively meta warping decks. It was kinda OK during UnGoro when there were many decks that were at or near the top of the meta. But with only a few top tier decks so far in this meta, VS reports are causing an even bigger push on the usage of these decks. You can tell just from playing the game when a new meta report has been released. As I said, the data is informative, but most people simply look at the meta list, see what is top tier, maybe look at the deck list, and then copy paste into their decks. It's a bit of a conundrum with the data they are providing because they clearly are all for a diverse and healthy meta. But I think it's very much backfiring at this point....contributing to popular decks becoming oppressively common.
So, you're saying the smart people use the reprots to counter the meta, so it's basically good for you ??? Because people are mindlessly playing the decks you counter, so easy wins for you. That's not even how this works dude - you can't predict what deck you will be matched against, you can just use a deck that has the best winrate against the most popular decks, so if you don't get unlucky you will win more games on average, but the price is that you probably lose more to other decks. That's why it's not like you are saying that you can be smart and counter the meta, but you are complaining (even tho a lot of druids [deck you counter i guess] should mean it's the best meta for you)
Another thing is that it's NOT EVEN POSSIBLE that Vicious Syndicate is part of the problem - they analyze the meta and THEN make their report, so logically the meta is already what's in their report when they release it (and that's exactly how it was, the meta was already tons of druids and other decks shown as tier 1-2 on VS right now, because there are other meta reports like tempostorms too)
You can also add to that the fact that the game is honestly kinda expensive. Most people can't afford or at least justify themselves spending a lot of money to go around designing their own fun decks that use fun cards that interest them but simply get crapped on by the best decks.
I think that here exactly we have the point. Playing wacky and funny decks requires having wacky and funny Legendarys with there special effects and many players are forced to disenchant T3 Legendarys to get the stuff they need and craft one or two top tier decks.
The game is expensive? You can have most cards of any expansion for free simply by playing the game regularly and saving your gold. And now that's even more true since they're not doing adventures anymore.
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FWIW - from Gadgetzan through Un'Goro, Jade Druid was a third tier deck with a top tier play-rate. BB commented in an interview after the Caverns Below nerf that Quest Rogue was third or fourth most-popular, but had the seventeenth best win-rate. There often simply isn't much of a correlation between win-rate and play-rate - Razakus Priest was the third-most popular deck on the VS live page this morning, with the ninth-best win-rate. Lots of other counter-examples to the OP's claim.
People are not stupid everyone know that. So why Blizzard is waiting for the nerfs?
Judging from their current responses and what they have done in the past: They aren't, but nerfs aren't a 'press button and win' thing.
Once they've IDed an issue, they start testing different solutions. Change this card into X, change that card into Y. Do both, do neither. HoF this card. No that blows. Try this instead. IIRC the Patron nerf involved them first testing out Patron itself, then some of warrior's card engine then finally IDing Warsong as the key problem to which they then tried 20 different methods until they ended up with the change we were left with. That's not a 1 day affair.
Then once you do all that, according to them, they have to push the patch through google play/istore which takes about a month to get approved. If you wonder why Blizzard had a video saying that pirates were a problem, then took a few weeks to announce a patch THEN pegged the patch for a MONTH after the announcement.. now you know why.
Of course in the past we would have to wait 1-2 months for blizzard to even ID that they need to do something, which is what happened in MSG. So far they've said that Druid is already being shown to be a problem a few days ago which suggests the above process is already underway.
But it's still going to take a while. Unless you want PC users to get the patch now and mobile folks to get it a month later.
(of course this is assuming they ARE working on it. If we get a video 2 months from now saying "Yeah, we thought things were fine but perhaps there's a problem" then ignore all this and get the pitchforks)
The game is expensive? You can have most cards of any expansion for free simply by playing the game regularly and saving your gold. And now that's even more true since they're not doing adventures anymore.
This is not true. On average you will get 9,5 random legendaries per year without spending money, so you can generally play more or less only pirate war. 50x365=18250 (average 50 gold per daily quest per year) 18250/100=182,5 (your average total gold per year divided by packs cost, so you will have 182,5 packs in a year) 182,5/20=9,5 (your total packs in a year divided the average rate in which you will find a legendary). So you will have 9,5 random legendaries in a year without spending money, with random events and other stuff maybe you can reach 10/11 random legendaries per year without spending money. If you are not fortuned and you have to craft the legendary that you want you will probably have to disenchant 4 of these legendaries. You can also add the packs received by brawls that are 52 in a year and so there are 2/3 other legendaries in a year. So at the end if you are fortuned in a year you will get 14 legendaries if you are not around 9. We have decks that are running 4/5 legendaries so the game is very expensive.
What is this math based on?
If you are trying to be truly F2P, it's not that hard. Between expansions, you could easily save up enough gold to buy 100 or more packs. This math is based on my own experience.
US is an arena/daily quest only account, been playing for 15 months. I opened 17 legendaries from packs, got 2 free (C'Thun/Death Knight) and crafted 5. Have 8360 dust.
Asia is arena/daily only as well, been playing 13 months. I opened 13 from packs (1 dupe though), 2 free, crafted 6. Have 2380 dust.
Above accounts I do an arena once a day on whichever account has most gold (unless I passed my target gold for an arena on EU, when I do it on EU instead), so I don't do stupid amounts of arena (I'm also not very good, making about 60 gold per run on average and 10 dust so it is like I am buying packs for 90 gold).
On EU main account I play quite a lot, been playing 18 months and I've opened 34 from packs (4 dupes though, 2 golden ones I already had in normal form though). 2 free. I've crafted 12. Currently have 9975 dust
On EU I bought all the adventure wings with gold, on Asia and US I did the same except for Naxx, so I don't have it on those accounts.
Not bought the welcome bundle. I did get a big dust refund for the Hall of Fame rotation though.
I don't dust cards unless I already have both copies (exception: dusted a Sideshow Spelleater [golden] because I had a non-golden one and 2 is kind of pointless in a deck), which means I am the proud owner on my EU account of Nozdormu, Lorewalker Cho and The Beast. I also dusted all my Ancient of Wars and Master of Disguises when they were nerfed (now I have 1 of each on EU I think). I haven't dusted any cards that are wild only on any account. (I have no GvG cards at all though, never got a GvG pack from arena when those were available when the pack used to be random, and never got a golden GvG card as a reward for end of season).
So 10 legendaries per year is underestimate (especially since the Asia and US accounts I only do dailies and an arena run [bit less than one every other day] so that is minimal play on those accounts (sometimes I complete quests in the arena as well so no gold for 3 wins bonus). If there is a particularly good tavern brawl for gold farming (like the Top 2 one) I may get 100 gold per day on each account for 30 wins, that happens very rarely though.
Well my numbers (see above) translate to slightly more than 1 legendary per month just by doing dailies and an arena every other day (which is minimal play), and being able to craft about half that number (plus a large amount of spare dust). (Not including the 2 we got for free). And both the arena accounts I spent 9100 gold on 13 adventure wings as well, you'd only need to spend 2800 now to get Karazahn. (EDIT: I didn't include the legendaries from the adventures in my numbers at all, so I have all of those as well for BRM, LoE and Kara).
I've been playing with my rendition of the tier -12 deck, quest Druid and have been destroying everyone. For some reason I keep seeing a lot of DK Mage, and then of course %70 jade Druid which I absolutely destroy because 0 removal and skulking Geist. Have yet to lose to one yet.
All that to say, I don't care at all about netdecks, the big advantage I have on them is that I know exactly what there deck is and they always do the "wow" emote when I play quest turn one and have no clue what my deck is.
To my surprise and joy I'm having the same experience. Getting the emotes when playing the quest as I was before KFT, but nowadays I also get to win with the deck!
Challenge a Friend requests help as well (don't get many of those on my arena accounts since I only do dailies and arenas, and at odd times for people in US/Asia, which goes straight in the gold bank). On my arena account I spend half my gold on new packs at release time, then every time I get 750 gold I spend 500 on 5 packs (up the target amount by another 250 each time, so 750, 1000, 1250 etc.), currently 3 classic packs and 2 others each time (will stop getting as many classic packs when I have all common classic cards).
On my EU main when I get a challenge (or get the quest myself) I always buy a pack immediately after getting the 80g (buy a pack where I have least rares from an expansion until I get a legendary then reconsider which packs to buy). I'm not buying classic packs with gold at the moment since I have all the common classic cards and a higher percentage of rares than in expansions, so buying expansion packs makes more sense.
On EU I spend all my gold on new packs on release day (spent 5400 this time - the festivals helped), then do an arena and buy a pack at 350g, then do the same at 550g, increasing the target by 200 each time.
I've opened something like 600 packs on EU (didn't start recording straight away). [EDIT: 572 packs plus an unknown number before opening Nozdormu, it seemed to take a long time though so I'm estimating about 30 packs maybe].
On US I have opened 348 packs (15 months). In Asia I opened 312 (13 months). This includes free packs (tavern brawls, choose your champion, occasional bonus packs and extra packs from arena [very rare, about one in every 20 runs]). So that's about 24 packs a month. (Most generous freebie was the old gods 13 packs for free). About 12 packs each month are from the arena (since I do one every 2 days on average unless I do my arena run on the EU account, and I do between 5 and 8 arena runs on EU every month). I've never run out of gold on my arena only accounts, it creeps up slowly (currently 2015g in US, 1885 in Asia, target for 5 packs is 2250 [when I hit target I buy 5 packs on each server then continue doing arenas on the account with the most gold each time]). EDIT: before I had the adventure wings on these accounts I got a wing every time I got 1500g on the arena accounts. I think the last wings were unlocked around the time I got 300g bonus for 1000 wins on each account. The only quest optimisation I do is never complete a 40g quest if I can avoid it (sometimes I will do my arena run on the other server if I have a 40g quest that is impossible not to complete).
Why you posted a so non-usefull post? Everyone know that it is not a matter of one day. But everyone also know that it is not a matter of 3 months and half (like the time required in order to nerf quest rogue). By the way you also talked about testing and other stuff and like everyone know nerf=destroy for blizzard. Look quest rogue, patron war and other stuff. By the way Vicious Syndicate has to tell to Blizzard that druid is op? Blizzard knew that jade druid would be op and released the garbage Skulking Geist. So why they are waiting so much is a good question.
Quest Rogue was a messy situation. It had a horrible win rate so stats wise there was no problem as you'd expect people to just stop playing it after a while. They didn't though. They kept playing it since people were willing to take those lower win rates for what the deck did when it worked. You can only determine that over time via player sentiment (after weeding out the whining which happens no matter what deck it is).
Jade was strong but FAR from overwhelming pre-KFT so they thought simply giving out a hate card would be enough to mess with it..which would be true if it came out pre-KFT.
Now Jade actually ISN'T the issue, because EVERY SINGLE DRUID DECK is too strong. A nerf to jade wouldn't actually fix the problem. The problem are core druid elements that feed into the decks. It's similar to how the solution to Patron wasn't nerfing Patron or Frothing but to Warsong or how Secret Paladin's fix wasn't by nerfing Challenger but by letting Standard exist and letting wild powercreep. You need to make sure to hit the right target or else you wasted your time and probably further ruined the meta.
And note, not every nerf has been to destroy. Execute, Yogg, Leeroy, and Auctioneer are examples of cards that weren't ruined. The ruined ones are typically the ones that don't have a middle ground: either they are too strong or too weak.
They didn't wait for Vicious to tell Blizzard. Blizzard has their own stats. Both stats just told the same story.
"Why you posted a so non-usefull post? "
Because everyone doesn't seem to realize that it's 'not a matter of 2 weeks' after an expansion to fix a problem, given this thread.
eh.. blizzard is really the problem. This is 2017. This is a digital ccg. If VS makes a meta stale faster, blizzard needs to do something about it by either balancing their game better, or doing more nerfs/buffs/reworks more often.
They are part of the problem, but they are not unique nor malicious in that. I've played CCGs since Magic The Gathering first came out. And in every game, there are always "Best Decks." It used to be only the top tier players were tuned in because when Magic came out... there wasn't such wide use of the internet. Now, anyone who wants a top tier deck can find it instantly.
Hearthpown is just as bad, I see the top decks here time and time again when I play. (Though some of these are built for fun.) And even though I'm a deck builder at heart, I do like winning so I tend to build decks very much like what's popular. I try never to copy them, but the card choices eventually creep into my decks and its rare I "discover" an archetype that isn't already popular.
But regardless, It's the interaction of plays that make me love the game, not winning or losing. Net-decks still make for interesting games, and the fact people use them adds a level of skill in reading the meta and anticipating your opponent's plays.
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The game is expensive? You can have most cards of any expansion for free simply by playing the game regularly and saving your gold. And now that's even more true since they're not doing adventures anymore.
This is not true. On average you will get 9,5 random legendaries per year without spending money, so you can generally play more or less only pirate war. 50x365=18250 (average 50 gold per daily quest per year) 18250/100=182,5 (your average total gold per year divided by packs cost, so you will have 182,5 packs in a year) 182,5/20=9,5 (your total packs in a year divided the average rate in which you will find a legendary). So you will have 9,5 random legendaries in a year without spending money, with random events and other stuff maybe you can reach 10/11 random legendaries per year without spending money. If you are not fortuned and you have to craft the legendary that you want you will probably have to disenchant 4 of these legendaries. You can also add the packs received by brawls that are 52 in a year and so there are 2/3 other legendaries in a year. So at the end if you are fortuned in a year you will get 14 legendaries if you are not around 9. We have decks that are running 4/5 legendaries so the game is very expensive.
What is this math based on?
If you are trying to be truly F2P, it's not that hard. Between expansions, you could easily save up enough gold to buy 100 or more packs. This math is based on my own experience.
Your experience is not the math. I calculeted the average legendary that you will get in a year if you are a F2P player. 14 if you are fortuned 9 if you are not. So this number are nt sufficient to built good decks (at least you don't want play always the chepest deck of the expansions) every 4 months if you are a F2P player. Between expansions you are able to safe 18250/4/100=45,6 packs something more with events and other stuff.
Again, what math are you using to calculate "average legendaries per year as a f2p"?
My own experience was attempting to actually save up gold going into a new expansion instead of pre-ordering. In just over a month, I had 5k gold and plenty of dust for crafting. IMO it's completely within reason to save up at least 10k gold for packs, and that's assuming you are probably still buying pack after the expansion is released.
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Mmh not really.
Unless the cancer abuses some OP combos, netdecking can never be overwhelming, because at a point the meta stabilises itself to counter that cancer.
Another story is if said cancer is virtually immune to meta shift, which is probably the case now with Jade Druid.
But it has little to do with netdecking, which is btw inevitable.
Tempostorm had the information out earlier by a few days.
If not for Vicious Syndicate or Tempostorm or any other site, there would be others.
Golden Heroes:
Warlock
Druid
Warrior
The game is expensive? You can have most cards of any expansion for free simply by playing the game regularly and saving your gold. And now that's even more true since they're not doing adventures anymore.
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FWIW - from Gadgetzan through Un'Goro, Jade Druid was a third tier deck with a top tier play-rate. BB commented in an interview after the Caverns Below nerf that Quest Rogue was third or fourth most-popular, but had the seventeenth best win-rate. There often simply isn't much of a correlation between win-rate and play-rate - Razakus Priest was the third-most popular deck on the VS live page this morning, with the ninth-best win-rate. Lots of other counter-examples to the OP's claim.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Anyone complaining blizzard hasn't nerfed anything yet has no idea how stuff like that is done. You don't make knee-jerk nerfs.
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I play f2p on all 3 regions.
US is an arena/daily quest only account, been playing for 15 months. I opened 17 legendaries from packs, got 2 free (C'Thun/Death Knight) and crafted 5. Have 8360 dust.
Asia is arena/daily only as well, been playing 13 months. I opened 13 from packs (1 dupe though), 2 free, crafted 6. Have 2380 dust.
Above accounts I do an arena once a day on whichever account has most gold (unless I passed my target gold for an arena on EU, when I do it on EU instead), so I don't do stupid amounts of arena (I'm also not very good, making about 60 gold per run on average and 10 dust so it is like I am buying packs for 90 gold).
On EU main account I play quite a lot, been playing 18 months and I've opened 34 from packs (4 dupes though, 2 golden ones I already had in normal form though). 2 free. I've crafted 12. Currently have 9975 dust
On EU I bought all the adventure wings with gold, on Asia and US I did the same except for Naxx, so I don't have it on those accounts.
Not bought the welcome bundle. I did get a big dust refund for the Hall of Fame rotation though.
I don't dust cards unless I already have both copies (exception: dusted a Sideshow Spelleater [golden] because I had a non-golden one and 2 is kind of pointless in a deck), which means I am the proud owner on my EU account of Nozdormu, Lorewalker Cho and The Beast. I also dusted all my Ancient of Wars and Master of Disguises when they were nerfed (now I have 1 of each on EU I think). I haven't dusted any cards that are wild only on any account. (I have no GvG cards at all though, never got a GvG pack from arena when those were available when the pack used to be random, and never got a golden GvG card as a reward for end of season).
So 10 legendaries per year is underestimate (especially since the Asia and US accounts I only do dailies and an arena run [bit less than one every other day] so that is minimal play on those accounts (sometimes I complete quests in the arena as well so no gold for 3 wins bonus). If there is a particularly good tavern brawl for gold farming (like the Top 2 one) I may get 100 gold per day on each account for 30 wins, that happens very rarely though.
Well my numbers (see above) translate to slightly more than 1 legendary per month just by doing dailies and an arena every other day (which is minimal play), and being able to craft about half that number (plus a large amount of spare dust). (Not including the 2 we got for free). And both the arena accounts I spent 9100 gold on 13 adventure wings as well, you'd only need to spend 2800 now to get Karazahn. (EDIT: I didn't include the legendaries from the adventures in my numbers at all, so I have all of those as well for BRM, LoE and Kara).
Challenge a Friend requests help as well (don't get many of those on my arena accounts since I only do dailies and arenas, and at odd times for people in US/Asia, which goes straight in the gold bank). On my arena account I spend half my gold on new packs at release time, then every time I get 750 gold I spend 500 on 5 packs (up the target amount by another 250 each time, so 750, 1000, 1250 etc.), currently 3 classic packs and 2 others each time (will stop getting as many classic packs when I have all common classic cards).
On my EU main when I get a challenge (or get the quest myself) I always buy a pack immediately after getting the 80g (buy a pack where I have least rares from an expansion until I get a legendary then reconsider which packs to buy). I'm not buying classic packs with gold at the moment since I have all the common classic cards and a higher percentage of rares than in expansions, so buying expansion packs makes more sense.
On EU I spend all my gold on new packs on release day (spent 5400 this time - the festivals helped), then do an arena and buy a pack at 350g, then do the same at 550g, increasing the target by 200 each time.
I've opened something like 600 packs on EU (didn't start recording straight away). [EDIT: 572 packs plus an unknown number before opening Nozdormu, it seemed to take a long time though so I'm estimating about 30 packs maybe].
On US I have opened 348 packs (15 months). In Asia I opened 312 (13 months). This includes free packs (tavern brawls, choose your champion, occasional bonus packs and extra packs from arena [very rare, about one in every 20 runs]). So that's about 24 packs a month. (Most generous freebie was the old gods 13 packs for free). About 12 packs each month are from the arena (since I do one every 2 days on average unless I do my arena run on the EU account, and I do between 5 and 8 arena runs on EU every month). I've never run out of gold on my arena only accounts, it creeps up slowly (currently 2015g in US, 1885 in Asia, target for 5 packs is 2250 [when I hit target I buy 5 packs on each server then continue doing arenas on the account with the most gold each time]). EDIT: before I had the adventure wings on these accounts I got a wing every time I got 1500g on the arena accounts. I think the last wings were unlocked around the time I got 300g bonus for 1000 wins on each account. The only quest optimisation I do is never complete a 40g quest if I can avoid it (sometimes I will do my arena run on the other server if I have a 40g quest that is impossible not to complete).
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
You know if you wanna play fun decks, then go into Casual. If you wanna play serious decks, then go into Ranked. It's that simple.
the report said quest mage 40 percent. I got 58 percent at rank 5.
you can still play fun decks in ranked. Doubt you will get pass rank 7 or so, but it can still be done.
eh.. blizzard is really the problem. This is 2017. This is a digital ccg. If VS makes a meta stale faster, blizzard needs to do something about it by either balancing their game better, or doing more nerfs/buffs/reworks more often.
They are part of the problem, but they are not unique nor malicious in that. I've played CCGs since Magic The Gathering first came out. And in every game, there are always "Best Decks." It used to be only the top tier players were tuned in because when Magic came out... there wasn't such wide use of the internet. Now, anyone who wants a top tier deck can find it instantly.
Hearthpown is just as bad, I see the top decks here time and time again when I play. (Though some of these are built for fun.) And even though I'm a deck builder at heart, I do like winning so I tend to build decks very much like what's popular. I try never to copy them, but the card choices eventually creep into my decks and its rare I "discover" an archetype that isn't already popular.
But regardless, It's the interaction of plays that make me love the game, not winning or losing. Net-decks still make for interesting games, and the fact people use them adds a level of skill in reading the meta and anticipating your opponent's plays.
Check out my gaming blog: Downy Owlbear Designs and download free P&P games.
Or argue with me about games on Qallout, the video debate site.
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!