As soon as a new meta report comes out, a large number of the netdeckers (aka 95% of the people that play this game) immediately switch to whatever deck is deemed to be OP/top tier. The smart people use the reports to try to counter the meta, but we are in the minority. I absolutely love the information they provide, but, sadly, I think it is contributing to popular decks snowballing into oppressively meta warping decks. It was kinda OK during UnGoro when there were many decks that were at or near the top of the meta. But with only a few top tier decks so far in this meta, VS reports are causing an even bigger push on the usage of these decks. You can tell just from playing the game when a new meta report has been released. As I said, the data is informative, but most people simply look at the meta list, see what is top tier, maybe look at the deck list, and then copy paste into their decks. It's a bit of a conundrum with the data they are providing because they clearly are all for a diverse and healthy meta. But I think it's very much backfiring at this point....contributing to popular decks becoming oppressively common.
I've been playing with my rendition of the tier -12 deck, quest Druid and have been destroying everyone. For some reason I keep seeing a lot of DK Mage, and then of course %70 jade Druid which I absolutely destroy because 0 removal and skulking Geist. Have yet to lose to one yet.
All that to say, I don't care at all about netdecks, the big advantage I have on them is that I know exactly what there deck is and they always do the "wow" emote when I play quest turn one and have no clue what my deck is.
As soon as a new meta report comes out, a large number of the netdeckers (aka 95% of the people that play this game) immediately switch to whatever deck is deemed to be OP/top tier. The smart people use the reports to try to counter the meta, but we are in the minority. I absolutely love the information they provide, but, sadly, I think it is contributing to popular decks snowballing into oppressively meta warping decks. It was kinda OK during UnGoro when there were many decks that were at or near the top of the meta. But with only a few top tier decks so far in this meta, VS reports are causing an even bigger push on the usage of these decks. You can tell just from playing the game when a new meta report has been released. As I said, the data is informative, but most people simply look at the meta list, see what is top tier, maybe look at the deck list, and then copy paste into their decks. It's a bit of a conundrum with the data they are providing because they clearly are all for a diverse and healthy meta. But I think it's very much backfiring at this point....contributing to popular decks becoming oppressively common.
Well, you probably right. Though here is the thing, there are a number of people I know personally that play this game only to win. The specialize in one, maybe two decks and play those over and over again. The bad news. They play the oppressive decks and have 0 interest and often 0 ability to create their own decks or experiment. The good news (for blizzard) they bring a lot of money to the table. Hearthstone is odd because of it's wide appeal to people who have never really liked or played card games before, and lot of that I think is because other games have less resources to help just tell you what is good or playable.
The downside is pretty big though, we get a lot of oppressive decks. Personally I don't mind so much, but I am the opposite of the guy who just wants to win. I am a Johnny player. And while a lot of people may have normally been Timmy players, the net deck availability turns them into spike players.
It's not so much a backfire as it is just something to expect. This is why people keep saying that netdecking isn't something to scream about or try to stop, because it's been around since before there was a net for THIS VERY REASON. The SECOND you have any conversation, ANY at all, it will turn into a fad which then turns into ..well, a netted deck. It's honestly the entirely same process behind memes, fads, shows becoming popular and general Culture as a whole.
The only way to avoid it is Elitism: lock the information so that the 'masses' can never see it, lock up the websites so that they can't visit or communicate with each other. Tear at anyone who posts information on youtube or becomes popular on Twitch.
No I'm not being edgy or absurd. You literally have to lock the information down this hard, which would also gut the community as a whole as well since it's these very tools that also brought us all together.
So no, Vicious syndicate hasn't backfired anymore than Trump/Krip/Whatever videos, guides, or the hearthpwn website itself or walkthroughs, guides, and Nintendo Power did long long ago. the point to Vicious is to learn more about the meta as a whole and allow everyone to learn more about it. Doing so DOES create a 'self fulfilling prophesy' but that's just par for the course.
Sidenote: if you honestly are a person who prefers to counter the meta then Syndicate's broadcasts and the netdecking response should be exactly what you want. I know Firebat is one such person and he was all about loving everyone rushing to Druid since it meant it was easy to counter them. In contrast, he DISLIKES the time before the mass netdecking since it means you CAN'T counter anything well and, thus, your win rate is based on chance (if your deck beats Druid and loses to Priest, and half of the players are playing Druid and half Priest, then your win rate is a coin flip, but if they are ALL playing Druid then you counter them and win win win).
(of course that's not counting metas where the top deck is too powerful, but that's NOT syndicate's fault and more of the fault of balancing. You don't solve hyper strong decks by hiding information and hoping no one notices: you solve it by pulling out that nerf bat. Note that in that regard, Syndicate HELPS since the meta shift becomes a big old "Blizzard FIX THIS #*$(#* META!" sign for them to do something. I do note that they've already started their talks about possible nerfs a few days ago.. 2 weeks into the expansion compared to the 2 MONTHS from MSG. )
People literally knew Jade and Token Druid were the best two decks within three days of the expansion. At higher levels of the ladder and in legend, druid was already dominating days before tempostorm or vicious syndicate released any kind of meta report.
Meta's shaping themselves happens naturally. And sure, the internet helps accelerate that process when people start to copy the top 10 legend decks, but it's still a natural process.
In any case, there is little point complaining about this because no one can stop it. Even if sites that do meta analysis stopped doing it for some reason, there still would be youtubers, streamers, legend players, and deck sharing sites like this one for players to look for.
Unless you're suggesting nerfing the internet lol.
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People literally knew Jade and Token Druid were the best two decks within three days of the expansion. At higher levels of the ladder and in legend, druid was already dominating days before tempostorm or vicious syndicate released any kind of meta report.
Meta's shaping themselves happens naturally. And sure, the internet helps accelerate that process when people start to copy the top 10 legend decks, but it's still a natural process.
In any case, there is little point complaining about this because no one can stop it. Even if sites that do meta analysis stopped doing it for some reason, there still would be youtubers, streamers, legend players, and deck sharing sites like this one for players to look for.
Unless you're suggesting nerfing the internet lol.
Then we'd be back to magazines and RL mailing lists which is how people netdecked MTG before a net.
We could go for mass drugging/subduing the populations. I hear [redacted political rant! WARNING WARNING!!!] but I don't mean to derail.
In my opinion, calling the meta report part of the problem is shooting the messenger. The root of the problem is that there is a small number of decks that are significantly better than the rest. And Blizzard is both reluctant and slow in re-balancing cards.
In my opinion, calling the meta report part of the problem is shooting the messenger. The root of the problem is that there is a small number of decks that are significantly better than the rest. And Blizzard is both reluctant and slow in re-balancing cards.
On the one hand, I THINK they are moving faster in this one. They already acknowledged the issue.
On the other, in a past message they stated that the Android/Iphone update system combined with Unity makes updating the game with, say, a nerf a month long process. That's AFTER finding the problem, identifying the actual cards involved, determinging the right solution, and playtesting to confirm it.
They are just reporting what is going on. That is like blaming the weather man for a hurricane. Like what the fuck are you going on about? Get off the internet and go outside for a little while. This thread is nonsense.
I agree that this is certainly part of the problem. The other part being, as many have stated, this game only rewards winning and nothing else. This isn't inherently bad or flawed but it does stagnate the meta. Rather than experiment with new stuff people just stick to what they know, which is why jade druid was good from the start. It was already a tier 1/2 deck that got new toys. I'm 90% sure there's something out there better than jade druid but no one is experimenting with it.
What would help, potentially, is tweaking the ranking and rewards system to better serve people who try different things. On top of that The star system can be utterly unforgiving at times. Dropping 5 ranks just because of bad draw luck is really depressing. This in no way cares about your overall performance, it's just a run of bad luck bending you over a barrel and showing you the 50 states
As others have said, they're only meeting the demand for data and analysis of the game. If anything, they provide information on how to counter things you see or handle certain match-ups. Heck, it's nice to see decks claiming "hard counter" are statistically 50/50 match-ups based on 700 game sample sizes. With the Small-Time / Spirit Claws nerf we had the patch scheduling excuse. It seems like by not forcing 3 months' of card backs into the latest patch to not have to update the game they've learned their lesson on that; it's irresponsible to not schedule a patch shortly after an expansion hits, even if it only ends up being for minor bug fixes. Hell, they might as well just treat the couple of balance tweaks like minor bug fixes and anticipate them instead of like cataclysmic events; after all, LoE was the last release without something needing to be nerfed.
Creating a new, unique deck, refining it and being successful with it at the top level of play is fairly hard. It's not something people with limited experience/time/money, who also want to get to higher ranks, can afford to do, i.e. a large majority of the players.
Also worth noting is that, due to sheer amount of players, it's hard to even find a deck in standard that hasn't been tried before. Odds are, if you create a new deck that's not something totally off the wall, it's probably already been tried before and failed the meta test.
Meta is Jade druid -> VS reports that jade druid is good -> trihards see the report and switch to jade druid
It's not like a weatherman reporting a hurricane unless the hurricane happens to be one that increase in strength as more people know about it
The real question is, so what? People who netdeck based on VS data would just netdeck some other perceivably meta deck if VS-like services didn't exist. Maybe whatever they netdeck won't be as powerful because of the limited information but it's still netdecking based on a popular archtype, which is all the same to the people complaining about the meta being shitty
I actually think that they are headed in the correct direction. They are building a lot of cards that are good, which is a good thing, because that means the "best play" isn't always obvious... so despite Jade looking a little curvestoney, they do seem to be headed in the right direction... and to be fair even jade has more and less optimal plays... I can tell because I have a higher then 50% rate in the mirror match when I have practiced jade for tournaments.
That being said, it doesn't mean there aren't problematic cards (like perhaps UI.)
Its obvious a huge amount of people want Druid nerfed. I believe Blizzard will nerf Druid in late September. They absolutely won't anytime sooner for two reason. First they want all the data so they can nerf anything that needs to be in a single patch. Second is the biggest reason. If they cave to the pressure it is going to suck for them. Imagine if they do it sometime soon. For the rest of the games lifespan all you will get is people throwing fits Blizzard won't nerf the class they don't like. "Well you nerfed Druid! Do the same to popular class that beats me!" I want Druid nerfed/change. Sadly, if it happens so fast the community will think they are the ones who can form the meta.
ViciousSyndicate helps the meta reach its optimal state faster. In un'goro it often helped showcase new decks that were performing well, to help promote meta diversity. In this meta, it's just one more source of information pointing out that druid decks are dominating. I think people would have figured that out on their own pretty quickly, but I hope the VS data helps blizzard come to the conclusion that change needs to be made more quickly.
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As soon as a new meta report comes out, a large number of the netdeckers (aka 95% of the people that play this game) immediately switch to whatever deck is deemed to be OP/top tier. The smart people use the reports to try to counter the meta, but we are in the minority. I absolutely love the information they provide, but, sadly, I think it is contributing to popular decks snowballing into oppressively meta warping decks. It was kinda OK during UnGoro when there were many decks that were at or near the top of the meta. But with only a few top tier decks so far in this meta, VS reports are causing an even bigger push on the usage of these decks. You can tell just from playing the game when a new meta report has been released. As I said, the data is informative, but most people simply look at the meta list, see what is top tier, maybe look at the deck list, and then copy paste into their decks. It's a bit of a conundrum with the data they are providing because they clearly are all for a diverse and healthy meta. But I think it's very much backfiring at this point....contributing to popular decks becoming oppressively common.
you are so smart! you dont play t1 deck! mom should be proud
I've been playing with my rendition of the tier -12 deck, quest Druid and have been destroying everyone. For some reason I keep seeing a lot of DK Mage, and then of course %70 jade Druid which I absolutely destroy because 0 removal and skulking Geist. Have yet to lose to one yet.
All that to say, I don't care at all about netdecks, the big advantage I have on them is that I know exactly what there deck is and they always do the "wow" emote when I play quest turn one and have no clue what my deck is.
It's not so much a backfire as it is just something to expect. This is why people keep saying that netdecking isn't something to scream about or try to stop, because it's been around since before there was a net for THIS VERY REASON. The SECOND you have any conversation, ANY at all, it will turn into a fad which then turns into ..well, a netted deck. It's honestly the entirely same process behind memes, fads, shows becoming popular and general Culture as a whole.
The only way to avoid it is Elitism: lock the information so that the 'masses' can never see it, lock up the websites so that they can't visit or communicate with each other. Tear at anyone who posts information on youtube or becomes popular on Twitch.
No I'm not being edgy or absurd. You literally have to lock the information down this hard, which would also gut the community as a whole as well since it's these very tools that also brought us all together.
So no, Vicious syndicate hasn't backfired anymore than Trump/Krip/Whatever videos, guides, or the hearthpwn website itself or walkthroughs, guides, and Nintendo Power did long long ago. the point to Vicious is to learn more about the meta as a whole and allow everyone to learn more about it. Doing so DOES create a 'self fulfilling prophesy' but that's just par for the course.
Sidenote: if you honestly are a person who prefers to counter the meta then Syndicate's broadcasts and the netdecking response should be exactly what you want. I know Firebat is one such person and he was all about loving everyone rushing to Druid since it meant it was easy to counter them. In contrast, he DISLIKES the time before the mass netdecking since it means you CAN'T counter anything well and, thus, your win rate is based on chance (if your deck beats Druid and loses to Priest, and half of the players are playing Druid and half Priest, then your win rate is a coin flip, but if they are ALL playing Druid then you counter them and win win win).
(of course that's not counting metas where the top deck is too powerful, but that's NOT syndicate's fault and more of the fault of balancing. You don't solve hyper strong decks by hiding information and hoping no one notices: you solve it by pulling out that nerf bat. Note that in that regard, Syndicate HELPS since the meta shift becomes a big old "Blizzard FIX THIS #*$(#* META!" sign for them to do something. I do note that they've already started their talks about possible nerfs a few days ago.. 2 weeks into the expansion compared to the 2 MONTHS from MSG. )
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
People literally knew Jade and Token Druid were the best two decks within three days of the expansion. At higher levels of the ladder and in legend, druid was already dominating days before tempostorm or vicious syndicate released any kind of meta report.
Meta's shaping themselves happens naturally. And sure, the internet helps accelerate that process when people start to copy the top 10 legend decks, but it's still a natural process.
In any case, there is little point complaining about this because no one can stop it. Even if sites that do meta analysis stopped doing it for some reason, there still would be youtubers, streamers, legend players, and deck sharing sites like this one for players to look for.
Unless you're suggesting nerfing the internet lol.
* Always play aggro crew
* Accept all friend request crew
* Don't mind/care if they rant crew
* Find it funny that they rant crew
* Google translate non english rant crew
* Most friends on my friends list are people I've beaten crew
Join my crew guys
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
In my opinion, calling the meta report part of the problem is shooting the messenger. The root of the problem is that there is a small number of decks that are significantly better than the rest. And Blizzard is both reluctant and slow in re-balancing cards.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
The streamers I think are good for the meta because they tend to play interesting decks. You don't see kibler playing pirate warrior.
They are just reporting what is going on. That is like blaming the weather man for a hurricane. Like what the fuck are you going on about? Get off the internet and go outside for a little while. This thread is nonsense.
I agree that this is certainly part of the problem. The other part being, as many have stated, this game only rewards winning and nothing else. This isn't inherently bad or flawed but it does stagnate the meta. Rather than experiment with new stuff people just stick to what they know, which is why jade druid was good from the start. It was already a tier 1/2 deck that got new toys. I'm 90% sure there's something out there better than jade druid but no one is experimenting with it.
What would help, potentially, is tweaking the ranking and rewards system to better serve people who try different things. On top of that The star system can be utterly unforgiving at times. Dropping 5 ranks just because of bad draw luck is really depressing. This in no way cares about your overall performance, it's just a run of bad luck bending you over a barrel and showing you the 50 states
As others have said, they're only meeting the demand for data and analysis of the game. If anything, they provide information on how to counter things you see or handle certain match-ups. Heck, it's nice to see decks claiming "hard counter" are statistically 50/50 match-ups based on 700 game sample sizes. With the Small-Time / Spirit Claws nerf we had the patch scheduling excuse. It seems like by not forcing 3 months' of card backs into the latest patch to not have to update the game they've learned their lesson on that; it's irresponsible to not schedule a patch shortly after an expansion hits, even if it only ends up being for minor bug fixes. Hell, they might as well just treat the couple of balance tweaks like minor bug fixes and anticipate them instead of like cataclysmic events; after all, LoE was the last release without something needing to be nerfed.
CCGing since '98.
As if not saying something can make something untrue.
"Are you not entertained?! ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!"
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity." - Maximus Decimus Meridius
Creating a new, unique deck, refining it and being successful with it at the top level of play is fairly hard. It's not something people with limited experience/time/money, who also want to get to higher ranks, can afford to do, i.e. a large majority of the players.
Also worth noting is that, due to sheer amount of players, it's hard to even find a deck in standard that hasn't been tried before. Odds are, if you create a new deck that's not something totally off the wall, it's probably already been tried before and failed the meta test.
Give the OP a break, what he says makes sense.
Meta is Jade druid -> VS reports that jade druid is good -> trihards see the report and switch to jade druid
It's not like a weatherman reporting a hurricane unless the hurricane happens to be one that increase in strength as more people know about it
The real question is, so what? People who netdeck based on VS data would just netdeck some other perceivably meta deck if VS-like services didn't exist. Maybe whatever they netdeck won't be as powerful because of the limited information but it's still netdecking based on a popular archtype, which is all the same to the people complaining about the meta being shitty
Legend with : S65 Freeze Mage, S57 Maly Gonk Druid, S57 "Okay" Shaman, S53 Boom-zooka Hunter, S53 Maly Tog Druid, S52 Wild Tog Druid ft.Blingtron, S50 Quest Rogue, S49 Dead Man's Warrior, S41 Wild Clown Fiesta Druid, S41 Hadronox Jade Druid, S40 Wild OTK Dragon Druid, S35 SMOrc Shaman, S33 Jade Druid, S22 Control Priest, S19 Control Priest
I actually think that they are headed in the correct direction. They are building a lot of cards that are good, which is a good thing, because that means the "best play" isn't always obvious... so despite Jade looking a little curvestoney, they do seem to be headed in the right direction... and to be fair even jade has more and less optimal plays... I can tell because I have a higher then 50% rate in the mirror match when I have practiced jade for tournaments.
That being said, it doesn't mean there aren't problematic cards (like perhaps UI.)
Its obvious a huge amount of people want Druid nerfed. I believe Blizzard will nerf Druid in late September. They absolutely won't anytime sooner for two reason. First they want all the data so they can nerf anything that needs to be in a single patch. Second is the biggest reason. If they cave to the pressure it is going to suck for them. Imagine if they do it sometime soon. For the rest of the games lifespan all you will get is people throwing fits Blizzard won't nerf the class they don't like. "Well you nerfed Druid! Do the same to popular class that beats me!" I want Druid nerfed/change. Sadly, if it happens so fast the community will think they are the ones who can form the meta.
ViciousSyndicate helps the meta reach its optimal state faster. In un'goro it often helped showcase new decks that were performing well, to help promote meta diversity. In this meta, it's just one more source of information pointing out that druid decks are dominating. I think people would have figured that out on their own pretty quickly, but I hope the VS data helps blizzard come to the conclusion that change needs to be made more quickly.