As of today, the most “unbeatable” archetype recorded by Vicious Syndicate’s live data is...Pirate Warrior (55%). Second place is shared by three decks: Murloc Paladin, Aggro Token Druid and Jade Druid which are each tied at 54%.
To give a little context to this though, in the Un'goro meta the top decks were around 52-53%, with another dozen or so decks in the wings around 48% and above, and week by week the place of decks within the meta should shift back and forward as they countered each other. Right now you have jade druid and three decks that manage to counter jade druid on top, and most others in the dumpster. This paragraph you so matter of factly stated as part of an arguement for why jade druid isn't so bad might be missed by those not paying attention, but it's actually a pretty nasty condemnation of the meta as a whole and quite a reason to be justifiably worried. We're a good two weeks into the expansion now, so it's too early to say that no innovation will happen, but it's certainly a reasonable time to get worried. The assumption that the meta will always work like un'goro with fresh new innovation constantly puting the meta into turmoil is very optimistic, and I think it forgets the lessons of shamanstones past.
There is plenty to respond to here, so I'll start with the question that I am most curious about:
What is the deck (or decks) that you wish you could be playing, but you are not able to because of Jade Druid? I'm sincerely interested to know.
This question is specifically directed at @Grimlokus and @Criptfeind, but I'd be curious to hear from anyone else who cares to respond. For @BestHearthstoneGamer (the person who started this thread), it appears to be Pirate Warrior.
You can't compare it to Un'goro because that was the beginning of a new rotation. We had to make new decks because it killed most of the old ones.
So...innovation only happens during set rotation? If that is true, then how is making a balance adjustment to one or two cards ever going to make a difference?
Are you trying to say Jade Druid is a problem because Quest Rogue got nerfed? Even when it got nerfed Jade Druid didn't completely take over the ladder. It was strong but nowhere near as polarizing as it is now. Jade Druid was fine before KFT came and gave them answers to all their problems.
Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. To cite Vicious Syndicate's first Data Reaper report following the Crystal Core nerf (before KFT was released): "We’ve said in our last report that, while Crystal Rogue was suppressing the performance of control decks, it was also suppressing the performance of Jade Druid, a notorious “control killer”. Jade Druid’s popularity jumped at the very second Crystal Rogue vanished and has seemingly taken its spot in the meta." (https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-56/)
People love to cite Pirate Warrior, Murloc Pally, and Aggro Druid (even though it's part of the druid problem) as being just as bad or winning just as much but they seem to forget that those decks are the only ones favourable against Jade Druid without dying to everything else. PW was weakening in the meta before KFT yet they now have the highest win rate? Even though they got nothing from the expansion? Have you considered these decks have such a high win rate BECAUSE Jade Druid is widespread rather than DESPITE it?
Pirate Warrior, Murloc Pally, and Aggro Druid are winning just as much as Jade Druid and the data supports that. They've also been Tier 1 or close to it before, during and after the recent re-emergence of Jade Druid. Whether or not they are as "bad" is a matter of personal preference. Personally I find all of these decks equally annoying, but I recognize that is subjective.
As of today, the most “unbeatable” archetype recorded by Vicious Syndicate’s live data is...Pirate Warrior (55%). Second place is shared by three decks: Murloc Paladin, Aggro Token Druid and Jade Druid which are each tied at 54%.
To give a little context to this though, in the Un'goro meta the top decks were around 52-53%, with another dozen or so decks in the wings around 48% and above, and week by week the place of decks within the meta should shift back and forward as they countered each other. Right now you have jade druid and three decks that manage to counter jade druid on top, and most others in the dumpster. This paragraph you so matter of factly stated as part of an arguement for why jade druid isn't so bad might be missed by those not paying attention, but it's actually a pretty nasty condemnation of the meta as a whole and quite a reason to be justifiably worried. We're a good two weeks into the expansion now, so it's too early to say that no innovation will happen, but it's certainly a reasonable time to get worried. The assumption that the meta will always work like un'goro with fresh new innovation constantly puting the meta into turmoil is very optimistic, and I think it forgets the lessons of shamanstones past.
How is this different from any other climate? There are a couple of dominant decks, and a few more decks that do well by countering them. At the moment the most dominant deck is Jade Druid (even though other decks are performing better or as well). Before that it was Burn Mage, which emerged as a counter to Taunt Warrior, etc...the cycle continues.
You've probably been playing longer than me, but I don't recall anywhere near a dozen different decks meeting the parameters for Tiers 1 and 2 at the same time during Un'goro or before.
What, in your opinion was the ideally balanced meta, and how long did it last? Did everything fall apart with the introduction of Jade Idol? Or was it a few weeks ago when KFT was released?
Im farming druids with murloc pala. Keep I'm coming! :)
I hate murloc paladin more than any other deck type ever invented. Stupid deck is beyond annoying. Always curves well, if you don't draw anti aggro you just die. At least with jades you've got 6-7 turns to set yourself up.
So in order to beat a deck that preys on slow decks you... run a slower deck?
If you keep your board to 3 minions you'll be fine, hardly a slower deck. What would you suggest, running a wide board aggro deck and watch them summon 35 hp worth of taunts? gosh which idea sounds better? Not that you can't beat jade with a slow deck. If you run skulking geist you can outright starve them. I run a homemade dragon elemental mage deck and it does pretty well at dealing with their early stuff. Wrecks their taunts. Then late game I just out value them...If they live that long.
How is this different from any other climate? There are a couple of dominant decks, and a few more decks that do well by countering them. At the moment the most dominant deck is Jade Druid (even though other decks are performing better or as well). Before that it was Burn Mage, which emerged as a counter to Taunt Warrior, etc...the cycle continues.
You've probably been playing longer than me, but I don't recall anywhere near a dozen different decks meeting the parameters for Tiers 1 and 2 at the same time during Un'goro or before.
What, in your opinion was the ideally balanced meta, and how long did it last? Did everything fall apart with the introduction of Jade Idol? Or was it a few weeks ago when KFT was released?
The potential difference is the scope of the relationship between dominate decks and the rest of the decks and how much actually changes in the cycle. Currently, and I want to point out here that I genuinely do not think that the meta has lasted long enough to be sure of anything yet, but currently, the decks that are ahead are way way way ahead, and the decks that are behind are way way way behind. In Un'goro a deck was "dominant" because the spread of the meta shifted enough for it to pick up a few percentage points, and then the meta would shift away from it, making it loose those percentage points to something else. The dominate decks weren't actually more powerful in of themselves for the most part then the other decks in t1-3, it was just a cycle of what was "right" for that moment. The meta was very balanced and yes you did in fact have OVER A DOZEN really good decks that rotated around between T3 and T1, rapidly causing the meta to shift constantly. To clarify the statistics you yourself posted, 55% win rate is scary high if it stays up for any length of time, and 40% is way below trash tier. You can't have a rotating cycle of decks if there's only really a small handful of good decks and the top decks are actually just more powerful then other decks. Then they just stagnate. Now, actual innovation with new decks (evolve shaman style) can happen to shake it up, but that's no where guaranteed. And right now (not 100% sure obviously because the meta is a bit too young) it looks like we might be in that situation. With jade druid just being the most powerful deck, with a weakness to certain types of aggro which the most powerful aggro decks can exploit to also be good.
In my opinion the best meta yet was Un'goro. Except for warlock (and to a lesser degree hunter) all classes had decks that would in a cycle reach at least T2 and there were plenty of decks that were all very close in overall power level. Jade idol obviously didn't ruin Un'goro, and I'm not confident that one can even say it was unhealthy for un'goro. Jade is very stifling, but potentially it acts as a cap on greedy decks and prevents a race to the bottom. However, it seems that power it up too much with cards like spreading plague and ultimate infestation and it turns from a deck that stifles some parts of the meta to a deck that stifles almost all parts of the meta.
A cycle in hearthstone with a constantly rotating cast of decks all taking their time in the spot light in turn is the sign if a really healthy meta, and although we just had 4 months of that in Un'goro it's not at all guaranteed to be the case. If you didn't play hearthstone before Un'goro you might not remember, but right before Un'goro we had a 7 month (that's right, month, not week) period where midrange/aggro shaman was the top deck by a pretty large margin. It's no where near 100% that eventually other decks will come along to displace druid and keep the cycle going.
There is plenty to respond to here, so I'll start with the question that I am most curious about:
What is the deck (or decks) that you wish you could be playing, but you are not able to because of Jade Druid? I'm sincerely interested to know.
This question is specifically directed at @Grimlokus and @Criptfeind, but I'd be curious to hear from anyone else who cares to respond. For @BestHearthstoneGamer (the person who started this thread), it appears to be Pirate Warrior.
You can't compare it to Un'goro because that was the beginning of a new rotation. We had to make new decks because it killed most of the old ones.
So...innovation only happens during set rotation? If that is true, then how is making a balance adjustment to one or two cards ever going to make a difference?
Are you trying to say Jade Druid is a problem because Quest Rogue got nerfed? Even when it got nerfed Jade Druid didn't completely take over the ladder. It was strong but nowhere near as polarizing as it is now. Jade Druid was fine before KFT came and gave them answers to all their problems.
Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. To cite Vicious Syndicate's first Data Reaper report following the Crystal Core nerf (before KFT was released): "We’ve said in our last report that, while Crystal Rogue was suppressing the performance of control decks, it was also suppressing the performance of Jade Druid, a notorious “control killer”. Jade Druid’s popularity jumped at the very second Crystal Rogue vanished and has seemingly taken its spot in the meta." (https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-56/)
People love to cite Pirate Warrior, Murloc Pally, and Aggro Druid (even though it's part of the druid problem) as being just as bad or winning just as much but they seem to forget that those decks are the only ones favourable against Jade Druid without dying to everything else. PW was weakening in the meta before KFT yet they now have the highest win rate? Even though they got nothing from the expansion? Have you considered these decks have such a high win rate BECAUSE Jade Druid is widespread rather than DESPITE it?
Pirate Warrior, Murloc Pally, and Aggro Druid are winning just as much as Jade Druid and the data supports that. They've also been Tier 1 or close to it before, during and after the recent re-emergence of Jade Druid. Whether or not they are as "bad" is a matter of personal preference. Personally I find all of these decks equally annoying, but I recognize that is subjective.
As of today, the most “unbeatable” archetype recorded by Vicious Syndicate’s live data is...Pirate Warrior (55%). Second place is shared by three decks: Murloc Paladin, Aggro Token Druid and Jade Druid which are each tied at 54%.
To give a little context to this though, in the Un'goro meta the top decks were around 52-53%, with another dozen or so decks in the wings around 48% and above, and week by week the place of decks within the meta should shift back and forward as they countered each other. Right now you have jade druid and three decks that manage to counter jade druid on top, and most others in the dumpster. This paragraph you so matter of factly stated as part of an arguement for why jade druid isn't so bad might be missed by those not paying attention, but it's actually a pretty nasty condemnation of the meta as a whole and quite a reason to be justifiably worried. We're a good two weeks into the expansion now, so it's too early to say that no innovation will happen, but it's certainly a reasonable time to get worried. The assumption that the meta will always work like un'goro with fresh new innovation constantly puting the meta into turmoil is very optimistic, and I think it forgets the lessons of shamanstones past.
How is this different from any other climate? There are a couple of dominant decks, and a few more decks that do well by countering them. At the moment the most dominant deck is Jade Druid (even though other decks are performing better or as well). Before that it was Burn Mage, which emerged as a counter to Taunt Warrior, etc...the cycle continues.
You've probably been playing longer than me, but I don't recall anywhere near a dozen different decks meeting the parameters for Tiers 1 and 2 at the same time during Un'goro or before.
What, in your opinion was the ideally balanced meta, and how long did it last? Did everything fall apart with the introduction of Jade Idol? Or was it a few weeks ago when KFT was released?
I would like to play my Quest Warrior and Evolve Shaman again. Quest Warrior was always a bad match but there was more wiggle room if you could drop minions quickly enough to play it like a midrange and got lucky with the fireball. DK Evolve Shaman could be fun to play where you run mostly swarm minions. I also played a bit with a slower Dragon Priest that used buffs and N'zoth at the beginning of KFT.
The point of my Un'goro comment was to point out that Un'goro was not the typical expansion and shouldn't be considered the norm. With a set rotation many decks are straight up BROKEN and have to be rebuilt again. Midrange Shaman was straight-up killed with Trogg and Totem Golem removed. KFT didn't have the same effect so you can't expect things to go the same way as Un'goro. I'm not saying innovation can't happen, I'm saying that the Un'goro/KFT comparisons are flawed. It would be more accurate to compare this with MSOG and Karazhan.
In regards to PW, Aggro Druid, Murloc Pally you completely missed my point. When you cite win rates you're not doing any critical analysis. You're not thinking about WHY they're doing better. This is especially true of PW because they got NOTHING OF VALUE from KFT. I look at the numbers and I see a problem. The field is represented solely by Jade Druid and decks Jade Druid doesn't instantly eat alive. I see it as showing Jade Druid having EXTREMELY strong match ups but they don't have a counter-balancing weak match up. Even their unfavourable match ups aren't so bad as to really affect their ability to win.
Even the last two weeks before the expansion 7 classes had T1/T2 decks. It was easily a dozen decks.
Jade Druid before KFT was only a T2 deck. The only issue with Jade Idol was that it was infinitely repeatable. Jade Druid had strengths and weaknesses that most decks could exploit or punish. You couldn't be too greedy with ramp or you'll have no board and no hand. You had to be careful about letting enemy boards get too big because you had no decent AOE until Primordial Drake. You had no way of dealing with buffed big minions besides trading. Why do you think old Jade Druid ran so much armour? KFT made those weaknesses negligible. That was when things fell apart. Ramp too hard? Ultimate Infestation. Board too big? Spreading Plague. Big minions? You have room for control cards because you don't need Auctioneer and armour to survive ramping too hard and big enemy boards.
The rate we're headed we're going to see a return of the midrange Shaman era where there was only Midrange Shaman, Renolock, and Pirate Warrior.
How is this different from any other climate? There are a couple of dominant decks, and a few more decks that do well by countering them. At the moment the most dominant deck is Jade Druid (even though other decks are performing better or as well). Before that it was Burn Mage, which emerged as a counter to Taunt Warrior, etc...the cycle continues.
You've probably been playing longer than me, but I don't recall anywhere near a dozen different decks meeting the parameters for Tiers 1 and 2 at the same time during Un'goro or before.
What, in your opinion was the ideally balanced meta, and how long did it last? Did everything fall apart with the introduction of Jade Idol? Or was it a few weeks ago when KFT was released?
The potential difference is the scope of the relationship between dominate decks and the rest of the decks and how much actually changes in the cycle. Currently, and I want to point out here that I genuinely do not think that the meta has lasted long enough to be sure of anything yet, but currently, the decks that are ahead are way way way ahead, and the decks that are behind are way way way behind. In Un'goro a deck was "dominant" because the spread of the meta shifted enough for it to pick up a few percentage points, and then the meta would shift away from it, making it loose those percentage points to something else. The dominate decks weren't actually more powerful in of themselves for the most part then the other decks in t1-3, it was just a cycle of what was "right" for that moment. The meta was very balanced and yes you did in fact have OVER A DOZEN really good decks that rotated around between T3 and T1, rapidly causing the meta to shift constantly. To clarify the statistics you yourself posted, 55% win rate is scary high if it stays up for any length of time, and 40% is way below trash tier. You can't have a rotating cycle of decks if there's only really a small handful of good decks and the top decks are actually just more powerful then other decks. Then they just stagnate. Now, actual innovation with new decks (evolve shaman style) can happen to shake it up, but that's no where guaranteed. And right now (not 100% sure obviously because the meta is a bit too young) it looks like we might be in that situation. With jade druid just being the most powerful deck, with a weakness to certain types of aggro which the most powerful aggro decks can exploit to also be good.
In my opinion the best meta yet was Un'goro. Except for warlock (and to a lesser degree hunter) all classes had decks that would in a cycle reach at least T2 and there were plenty of decks that were all very close in overall power level. Jade idol obviously didn't ruin Un'goro, and I'm not confident that one can even say it was unhealthy for un'goro. Jade is very stifling, but potentially it acts as a cap on greedy decks and prevents a race to the bottom. However, it seems that power it up too much with cards like spreading plague and ultimate infestation and it turns from a deck that stifles some parts of the meta to a deck that stifles almost all parts of the meta.
A cycle in hearthstone with a constantly rotating cast of decks all taking their time in the spot light in turn is the sign if a really healthy meta, and although we just had 4 months of that in Un'goro it's not at all guaranteed to be the case. If you didn't play hearthstone before Un'goro you might not remember, but right before Un'goro we had a 7 month (that's right, month, not week) period where midrange/aggro shaman was the top deck by a pretty large margin. It's no where near 100% that eventually other decks will come along to displace druid and keep the cycle going.
@Criptfeind: Thanks for your thoughtful response. I think we can all agree that a healthy meta is reflected in a rich deck diversity, and in a narrow differential between the highest and lowest win rates. Because playing the same decks over and over is not fun for anyone!
Where we may disagree is how and when to respond to perceived imbalances. My preferred approach is a combination of patience, following innovative players, and trying to innovate myself when i can. I believe that the meta becomes balanced over time as a result of 70 million players trying to counter each other.
Another approach is to blame the developers and call on them to urgently nerf one card or another. In my observation, this either: (A) does very little (ie: Small-time Buccaneer and Pirate Warrior) or, (B) only creates new imbalances that then must be settled over time until the next expansion (Crystal Core and the re-emergence of Jade Druid).
As powerful as Blizzard may seem, the meta is ultimately shaped by Hearthstone’s 70 million players much more than the developers - and this often happens in unpredictable ways.
Since I’ve not been playing long enough to really know what I’m talking about, and you admitted that it may be too early to tell - there probably isn’t anything more to say at this point, and we should wait and see what happens in the weeks and months to come.
But because I am really bored and clearly have no life, I took the time to look back at the Vicious Syndicate reports from the final days of Karkazhan until now, and I learned much.
Here are some highlights, and if anyone is still reading this blather: I thank you! (Note: the #’s refer to Vicious Syndicate Data Reaper reports, which I assume are a trusted source).
The number of Tier 1 and Tier 2 archetypes decreased during the course of Un’goro, more so than during the transition to Frozen Throne: At the start of Un’goro there were indeed 12 decks in the top two tiers (ie: with win rates higher than 50%). This reflected a nice, healthy balance at the top levels. I was surprised to see that this number actually decreased to 7 by the end of that period. Since the introduction of KFT, it has further been reduced to 6.
Winrate differential at the start of the last two expansions was actually higher than it is now: If you calculate the difference between the highest and lowest win rates at the start of both MSoG (17.9) and Un’goro (18.8), the spread was actually slightly more narrow than it was at the start of KFT (17.09).
As expected, the gap between the best and least performing decks in Tiers 1-4 decreased significantly between the beginning and the end of each expansion. In both cases, the imbalance that could be observed at the beginning of the meta was reduced towards the end. I seen no reason to not expect this trend will continue for KFT.*
Jade Druid is NOT responsible for the success of Pirate Warrior and Murloc Paladin. Vicious Syndicate issued 15 data reaper reports during the Un’goro Meta. Pirate Warrior was listed as Tier 1 in all but one of these. Murloc and/or Midrange Paladin were rated Tier 1 in EVERY single report during this period. Jade Druid does not appear even as Tier 2 in any of these reports.
*(PS - I recognize that these numbers do not tell the whole story of meta diversity, but they do serve as an indication and I’m trying to keep things relatively simple. You’ll just have to trust me that they are a reflection of the variety at large, and/or look at the reports yourself.)
eh. I dont enjoy playing against druid, but I win most of the time. I play n'zoth warrior (with hemet) and if I draw hemet on curve I can easily stabilize and start pounding them with tempo from scourgelord garrosh, big direhorns and TLK. I actually perfer UI in druid than auctioneer; in ungoro I would be crushed by druid because they would play auctioneer and go from 4/4 jade to 10/10 in one turn. I dont run brawl (for more tempo cards and ooze) so that was always game over for me. That being said, I think that druid IS too strong right now.
I was much more happy loosing to quest rogue T5/6 than jade druid T11/12. When blizzard nerfed quest they should have also changed jade idol.
To sum it up, although my winrate is fine VS jade druid, I dislike how it has polarized the meta and pushed out all other control decks. This adversely effects the midrange decks I play, and means that other fun decks that I would like to play more (such as DK warlock) are not viable.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I also wanted to add that I think this will often be the case with the 2nd expansion of each cycle. To elaborate, I don't expect the 2nd expansions of each cycle to be as impactful as the 1st and 3rd ones. Typically the 1st expansion will be introduced at times when the power level of the decks drops the most overall and so its much more likely for new archetypes to find a place in the meta and be competitive. If the 2nd expansion is designed to be on a similar power level than I think its less likely to impact the meta as much, because a good chunk of already competitively viable archetypes are in the mix and if any cards in the 2nd expansion of a cycle aid those decks they will only become stronger (due to both the decks already having been strong and also because people are more experienced in piloting pre-existing decks) and let's not forget that its much cheaper to upgrade a list than to craft an entirely new one. On the 3rd expansion I think they choose to take more risks introducing some very powerful cards, since those will anyway remain in rotation for the smallest period of time (~ 16 months) as we saw with MSG, which means that 3rd expansions of a cycle are more likely to have an impact on the state of the game than the 2nd.
There is plenty to respond to here, so I'll start with the question that I am most curious about:
What is the deck (or decks) that you wish you could be playing, but you are not able to because of Jade Druid? I'm sincerely interested to know.
This question is specifically directed at @Grimlokus and @Criptfeind, but I'd be curious to hear from anyone else who cares to respond. For @BestHearthstoneGamer (the person who started this thread), it appears to be Pirate Warrior.
You can't compare it to Un'goro because that was the beginning of a new rotation. We had to make new decks because it killed most of the old ones.
So...innovation only happens during set rotation? If that is true, then how is making a balance adjustment to one or two cards ever going to make a difference?
Are you trying to say Jade Druid is a problem because Quest Rogue got nerfed? Even when it got nerfed Jade Druid didn't completely take over the ladder. It was strong but nowhere near as polarizing as it is now. Jade Druid was fine before KFT came and gave them answers to all their problems.
Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. To cite Vicious Syndicate's first Data Reaper report following the Crystal Core nerf (before KFT was released): "We’ve said in our last report that, while Crystal Rogue was suppressing the performance of control decks, it was also suppressing the performance of Jade Druid, a notorious “control killer”. Jade Druid’s popularity jumped at the very second Crystal Rogue vanished and has seemingly taken its spot in the meta." (https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-56/)
People love to cite Pirate Warrior, Murloc Pally, and Aggro Druid (even though it's part of the druid problem) as being just as bad or winning just as much but they seem to forget that those decks are the only ones favourable against Jade Druid without dying to everything else. PW was weakening in the meta before KFT yet they now have the highest win rate? Even though they got nothing from the expansion? Have you considered these decks have such a high win rate BECAUSE Jade Druid is widespread rather than DESPITE it?
Pirate Warrior, Murloc Pally, and Aggro Druid are winning just as much as Jade Druid and the data supports that. They've also been Tier 1 or close to it before, during and after the recent re-emergence of Jade Druid. Whether or not they are as "bad" is a matter of personal preference. Personally I find all of these decks equally annoying, but I recognize that is subjective.
As of today, the most “unbeatable” archetype recorded by Vicious Syndicate’s live data is...Pirate Warrior (55%). Second place is shared by three decks: Murloc Paladin, Aggro Token Druid and Jade Druid which are each tied at 54%.
To give a little context to this though, in the Un'goro meta the top decks were around 52-53%, with another dozen or so decks in the wings around 48% and above, and week by week the place of decks within the meta should shift back and forward as they countered each other. Right now you have jade druid and three decks that manage to counter jade druid on top, and most others in the dumpster. This paragraph you so matter of factly stated as part of an arguement for why jade druid isn't so bad might be missed by those not paying attention, but it's actually a pretty nasty condemnation of the meta as a whole and quite a reason to be justifiably worried. We're a good two weeks into the expansion now, so it's too early to say that no innovation will happen, but it's certainly a reasonable time to get worried. The assumption that the meta will always work like un'goro with fresh new innovation constantly puting the meta into turmoil is very optimistic, and I think it forgets the lessons of shamanstones past.
How is this different from any other climate? There are a couple of dominant decks, and a few more decks that do well by countering them. At the moment the most dominant deck is Jade Druid (even though other decks are performing better or as well). Before that it was Burn Mage, which emerged as a counter to Taunt Warrior, etc...the cycle continues.
You've probably been playing longer than me, but I don't recall anywhere near a dozen different decks meeting the parameters for Tiers 1 and 2 at the same time during Un'goro or before.
What, in your opinion was the ideally balanced meta, and how long did it last? Did everything fall apart with the introduction of Jade Idol? Or was it a few weeks ago when KFT was released?
I would like to play my Quest Warrior and Evolve Shaman again. Quest Warrior was always a bad match but there was more wiggle room if you could drop minions quickly enough to play it like a midrange and got lucky with the fireball. DK Evolve Shaman could be fun to play where you run mostly swarm minions. I also played a bit with a slower Dragon Priest that used buffs and N'zoth at the beginning of KFT.
In regards to PW, Aggro Druid, Murloc Pally you completely missed my point. When you cite win rates you're not doing any critical analysis. You're not thinking about WHY they're doing better. This is especially true of PW because they got NOTHING OF VALUE from KFT. I look at the numbers and I see a problem. The field is represented solely by Jade Druid and decks Jade Druid doesn't instantly eat alive. I see it as showing Jade Druid having EXTREMELY strong match ups but they don't have a counter-balancing weak match up. Even their unfavourable match ups aren't so bad as to really affect their ability to win.
Even the last two weeks before the expansion 7 classes had T1/T2 decks. It was easily a dozen decks.
Jade Druid before KFT was only a T2 deck. The only issue with Jade Idol was that it was infinitely repeatable. Jade Druid had strengths and weaknesses that most decks could exploit or punish. You couldn't be too greedy with ramp or you'll have no board and no hand. You had to be careful about letting enemy boards get too big because you had no decent AOE until Primordial Drake. You had no way of dealing with buffed big minions besides trading. Why do you think old Jade Druid ran so much armour? KFT made those weaknesses negligible. That was when things fell apart. Ramp too hard? Ultimate Infestation. Board too big? Spreading Plague. Big minions? You have room for control cards because you don't need Auctioneer and armour to survive ramping too hard and big enemy boards.
The rate we're headed we're going to see a return of the midrange Shaman era where there was only Midrange Shaman, Renolock, and Pirate Warrior.
@Grimlokus: I enjoyed reading about your favorite decks - I always get a kick out of learning what people are having fun with, so thanks for answering that part of my query.
Most of the rest of your comments I covered in my response to Criptfied, which you may or may not be interested in reading (above).
But I did want to respond directly to your point about Pirate Warrior, Murloc Paladin and Aggro Druid.
You wrote "Have you considered these decks have such a high win rate BECAUSE Jade Druid is widespread rather than DESPITE it? " and "You're not thinking about WHY they're doing better." On the contrary, I am indeed very much thinking about the overall context, and I do understand the point you are trying to make - I just don't agree.
Pirate Warrior, Murloc Paladin and Aggro Druid are not "doing better" because of of Jade Druid - they have been consistently leading for months now. Yes the diversity of archetypes has decreased for the moment, but these three have collectively made up at least a full quarter if not more of the top T1-T2 decks throughout Un'goro - even as others have rotated in and out.
Since you cited TempoStorm, I also took a look at each of their six different reports issued during the Un’goro meta.
Pirate Warrior and Aggro Druid are rated as Tier 1 decks in every single one of the reports during this period from April through August. Midrange and/or Murloc Pally rank as top tier in all but 1. All of this was - by your own admission - well before the recent re-emergence of Jade Druid.
So please explain to me how Jade Druid is to blame for the persistent predominance of Pirate Warrior, Aggro Druid and Murloc Paladin? They have not been less than top tier throughout the entire Un'goro meta regardless of what Jade Druid was doing.
There is no question that there is less diversity at the moment than there was during the hey day of Un'goro, and this is unfortunate. But to claim that Jade Druid is solely responsible for this is a stretch.
I think a lot more of it has to do with the start of a new meta, and people at first latching on to whatever is working best with the least amount of effort. We've seen this before.
My prediction is that - as innovative players find new ways to win - much of that diversity will return before too long, without intervention from the developers. Only time will tell.
tl;dr - Clearly I have too much time on my hands, and I need to get a life.
there probably isn’t anything more to say at this point, and we should wait and see what happens in the weeks and months to come.
I do agree with this, I think it's too early to nerf stuff. I just wanted to somewhat challenge some of the ideas (that I perceived) being put forth that just because things worked out in the past that they are guaranteed to in the future and that the current situation isn't worrying. But I just wanted to put out at the start of this post I think I agree with you overall in what needs to be done, I just have a pessimistic view of the future instead of an optimistic one. So, that out of the way, I hope you don't mind if I challenge a few more of your statements, for the sake of conversation if nothing else.
The number of Tier 1 and Tier 2 archetypes decreased during the course of Un’goro, more so than during the transition to Frozen Throne: At the start of Un’goro there were indeed 12 decks in the top two tiers (ie: with win rates higher than 50%). This reflected a nice, healthy balance at the top levels. I was surprised to see that this number actually decreased to 7 by the end of that period. Since the introduction of KFT, it has further been reduced to 6.
Winrate differential at the start of the last two expansions was actually higher than it is now: If you calculate the difference between the highest and lowest win rates at the start of both MSoG (17.9) and Un’goro (18.8), the spread was actually slightly more narrow than it was at the start of KFT (17.09).
I think this is a little bit misleading when trying to get across the idea of how diverse things are in comparison between Un'goro and now. Exspecally when you muddy the waters by throwing in the bottom T4 decks into the mix (which are almost irrelevant for this comparison) VS hard break points on tier lists are set up for the metas that they started their reports in, and aren't super accurate ways to compare across broad swaths of metas. Especially healthy metas like un'goro (or unhealthy metas like I belive that kotft is currently in) don't work perfectly within the lines, something they themselves note in one of the un'goro reports.
What I specifically want to point out to you is the difference between the top deck/decks and the runner up ones. Even at the end of Un'goro the top deck was within four or five percentage points of ten other decks. Whereas now the top deck is that far away from three decks. That's a huge difference. And the important one. Directly saying "well, both t2 and t1 are populated" ignores that now the T1 decks are as far away from t2 decks as the t1 decks in un'goro were from the mid t3 decks. The same spread that the big 4 have in this meta encompassed more then double their number in the previous meta, that's the true narrowing of diversity. And that lack of diversity in the win rates holds out, except for priest, which is the only class not in the big 4 with a positive win rate, all the other classes drop in play rate as druid skyrockets.
ade Druid is NOT responsible for the success of Pirate Warrior and Murloc Paladin. Vicious Syndicate issued 15 data reaper reports during the Un’goro Meta. Pirate Warrior was listed as Tier 1 in all but one of these. Murloc and/or Midrange Paladin were rated Tier 1 in EVERY single report during this period. Jade Druid does not appear even as Tier 2 in any of these reports.
I think this is arguable. They are clearly quite powerful decks on their own. But they've not become more powerful with the release of kotft. Their win rate has skyrocketed though. Once again it's a bit of an issue with comparing tier listings directly with each other without paying attention to win rate. Pirate warrior has gained enough win rate that it would have climbed two tiers if it wasn't already tier one. If you look at the match up spread it's easy to see, these are the three decks that have a good win rate against jade druid, which is the most popular deck in the game currently. Certainly they are strong on their own, but it's jade druid taking over the meta that's allowed them to flourish this much. In the idea situation they'd become a big enough force in the meta to force jade druid out in favor of more anti aggro decks. But the question there is going to be if there's actually other decks that are so much better then jade druid at being anti aggro and still have a good match up against other decks that they are worth running over just running jade druid, which isn't awful against these decks anyway.
There is plenty to respond to here, so I'll start with the question that I am most curious about:
What is the deck (or decks) that you wish you could be playing, but you are not able to because of Jade Druid? I'm sincerely interested to know.
This question is specifically directed at @Grimlokus and @Criptfeind, but I'd be curious to hear from anyone else who cares to respond. For @BestHearthstoneGamer (the person who started this thread), it appears to be Pirate Warrior.
You can't compare it to Un'goro because that was the beginning of a new rotation. We had to make new decks because it killed most of the old ones.
So...innovation only happens during set rotation? If that is true, then how is making a balance adjustment to one or two cards ever going to make a difference?
Are you trying to say Jade Druid is a problem because Quest Rogue got nerfed? Even when it got nerfed Jade Druid didn't completely take over the ladder. It was strong but nowhere near as polarizing as it is now. Jade Druid was fine before KFT came and gave them answers to all their problems.
Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. To cite Vicious Syndicate's first Data Reaper report following the Crystal Core nerf (before KFT was released): "We’ve said in our last report that, while Crystal Rogue was suppressing the performance of control decks, it was also suppressing the performance of Jade Druid, a notorious “control killer”. Jade Druid’s popularity jumped at the very second Crystal Rogue vanished and has seemingly taken its spot in the meta." (https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-56/)
People love to cite Pirate Warrior, Murloc Pally, and Aggro Druid (even though it's part of the druid problem) as being just as bad or winning just as much but they seem to forget that those decks are the only ones favourable against Jade Druid without dying to everything else. PW was weakening in the meta before KFT yet they now have the highest win rate? Even though they got nothing from the expansion? Have you considered these decks have such a high win rate BECAUSE Jade Druid is widespread rather than DESPITE it?
Pirate Warrior, Murloc Pally, and Aggro Druid are winning just as much as Jade Druid and the data supports that. They've also been Tier 1 or close to it before, during and after the recent re-emergence of Jade Druid. Whether or not they are as "bad" is a matter of personal preference. Personally I find all of these decks equally annoying, but I recognize that is subjective.
As of today, the most “unbeatable” archetype recorded by Vicious Syndicate’s live data is...Pirate Warrior (55%). Second place is shared by three decks: Murloc Paladin, Aggro Token Druid and Jade Druid which are each tied at 54%.
To give a little context to this though, in the Un'goro meta the top decks were around 52-53%, with another dozen or so decks in the wings around 48% and above, and week by week the place of decks within the meta should shift back and forward as they countered each other. Right now you have jade druid and three decks that manage to counter jade druid on top, and most others in the dumpster. This paragraph you so matter of factly stated as part of an arguement for why jade druid isn't so bad might be missed by those not paying attention, but it's actually a pretty nasty condemnation of the meta as a whole and quite a reason to be justifiably worried. We're a good two weeks into the expansion now, so it's too early to say that no innovation will happen, but it's certainly a reasonable time to get worried. The assumption that the meta will always work like un'goro with fresh new innovation constantly puting the meta into turmoil is very optimistic, and I think it forgets the lessons of shamanstones past.
How is this different from any other climate? There are a couple of dominant decks, and a few more decks that do well by countering them. At the moment the most dominant deck is Jade Druid (even though other decks are performing better or as well). Before that it was Burn Mage, which emerged as a counter to Taunt Warrior, etc...the cycle continues.
You've probably been playing longer than me, but I don't recall anywhere near a dozen different decks meeting the parameters for Tiers 1 and 2 at the same time during Un'goro or before.
What, in your opinion was the ideally balanced meta, and how long did it last? Did everything fall apart with the introduction of Jade Idol? Or was it a few weeks ago when KFT was released?
I would like to play my Quest Warrior and Evolve Shaman again. Quest Warrior was always a bad match but there was more wiggle room if you could drop minions quickly enough to play it like a midrange and got lucky with the fireball. DK Evolve Shaman could be fun to play where you run mostly swarm minions. I also played a bit with a slower Dragon Priest that used buffs and N'zoth at the beginning of KFT.
In regards to PW, Aggro Druid, Murloc Pally you completely missed my point. When you cite win rates you're not doing any critical analysis. You're not thinking about WHY they're doing better. This is especially true of PW because they got NOTHING OF VALUE from KFT. I look at the numbers and I see a problem. The field is represented solely by Jade Druid and decks Jade Druid doesn't instantly eat alive. I see it as showing Jade Druid having EXTREMELY strong match ups but they don't have a counter-balancing weak match up. Even their unfavourable match ups aren't so bad as to really affect their ability to win.
Even the last two weeks before the expansion 7 classes had T1/T2 decks. It was easily a dozen decks.
Jade Druid before KFT was only a T2 deck. The only issue with Jade Idol was that it was infinitely repeatable. Jade Druid had strengths and weaknesses that most decks could exploit or punish. You couldn't be too greedy with ramp or you'll have no board and no hand. You had to be careful about letting enemy boards get too big because you had no decent AOE until Primordial Drake. You had no way of dealing with buffed big minions besides trading. Why do you think old Jade Druid ran so much armour? KFT made those weaknesses negligible. That was when things fell apart. Ramp too hard? Ultimate Infestation. Board too big? Spreading Plague. Big minions? You have room for control cards because you don't need Auctioneer and armour to survive ramping too hard and big enemy boards.
The rate we're headed we're going to see a return of the midrange Shaman era where there was only Midrange Shaman, Renolock, and Pirate Warrior.
@Grimlokus: I enjoyed reading about your favorite decks - I always get a kick out of learning what people are having fun with, so thanks for answering that part of my query.
Most of the rest of your comments I covered in my response to Criptfied, which you may or may not be interested in reading (above).
But I did want to respond directly to your point about Pirate Warrior, Murloc Paladin and Aggro Druid.
You wrote "Have you considered these decks have such a high win rate BECAUSE Jade Druid is widespread rather than DESPITE it? " and "You're not thinking about WHY they're doing better." On the contrary, I am indeed very much thinking about the overall context, and I do understand the point you are trying to make - I just don't agree.
Pirate Warrior, Murloc Paladin and Aggro Druid are not "doing better" because of of Jade Druid - they have been consistently leading for months now. Yes the diversity of archetypes has decreased for the moment, but these three have collectively made up at least a full quarter if not more of the top T1-T2 decks throughout Un'goro - even as others have rotated in and out.
Since you cited TempoStorm, I also took a look at each of their six different reports issued during the Un’goro meta.
Pirate Warrior and Aggro Druid are rated as Tier 1 decks in every single one of the reports during this period from April through August. Midrange and/or Murloc Pally rank as top tier in all but 1. All of this was - by your own admission - well before the recent re-emergence of Jade Druid.
So please explain to me how Jade Druid is to blame for the persistent predominance of Pirate Warrior, Aggro Druid and Murloc Paladin? They have not been less than top tier throughout the entire Un'goro meta regardless of what Jade Druid was doing.
There is no question that there is less diversity at the moment than there was during the hey day of Un'goro, and this is unfortunate. But to claim that Jade Druid is solely responsible for this is a stretch.
I think a lot more of it has to do with the start of a new meta, and people at first latching on to whatever is working best with the least amount of effort. We've seen this before.
My prediction is that - as innovative players find new ways to win - much of that diversity will return before too long, without intervention from the developers. Only time will tell.
tl;dr - Clearly I have too much time on my hands, and I need to get a life.
Because jade druid completely slaughters every single deck that has a huge edge versus those decks to such a degree that we're probably talking about a 70% edge (which in HS terms is insane)?
It ain't rocket science, bud.
Jade druid is broken, the meta is broken. We have two classes with more than 1 competitive deck, 2 classes without a single one. It's the least diverse meta in HS history, and it is because one deck is so completely and utterly broken against ANY deck that doesn't cheese out insane threats early.
I just played versus 6 jade druids in a row. They draw more than control warlock, they gain more life than control warrior, they put on more mid-pressure than mid-range pally, the control the early board almost as good as zoo, they have the highest late-game value in the game outside exodia deck (with none of the drawbacks).
It ain't fun to play against, I certainly don't find it fun to play with and it makes the entire game more stale than it has ever been.
There is no defense of this deck outside lies or delusion. It's busted, broken, should never have passed testing and it has absolutely no place in a game that tries to sell itself as "competitive" (however slight).
1. PIrate Warrior - draws the nuts for 8 straight turns, 0-1
2. Jade Druid - outdraws me because lol I guess that's the game and I deserve to lose, 0-2
3. Pirate Warrior - draws the nuts for 6 straight turns, 0-3
4. Silence Priest - draws the nuts for 9 straight turns, 0-4
Yep completely unbeatable.
Or maybe you just arent a good player considering you blame it on drawing the nuts each time
wow mr tough guy
it's easy to blame losses on someone's skill and play when you aren't actually seeing the games. you can play flawlessly every single turn and lose to someone misplaying every turn, simply because of how the card draws come out.
Mr tough guy? Then you are in for a big surprise in the real world my friend lol
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There is plenty to respond to here, so I'll start with the question that I am most curious about:
What is the deck (or decks) that you wish you could be playing, but you are not able to because of Jade Druid? I'm sincerely interested to know.
This question is specifically directed at @Grimlokus and @Criptfeind, but I'd be curious to hear from anyone else who cares to respond. For @BestHearthstoneGamer (the person who started this thread), it appears to be Pirate Warrior.
Sorry, this space reserved for an accidental double post :)
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
Where we may disagree is how and when to respond to perceived imbalances. My preferred approach is a combination of patience, following innovative players, and trying to innovate myself when i can. I believe that the meta becomes balanced over time as a result of 70 million players trying to counter each other.
Another approach is to blame the developers and call on them to urgently nerf one card or another. In my observation, this either: (A) does very little (ie: Small-time Buccaneer and Pirate Warrior) or, (B) only creates new imbalances that then must be settled over time until the next expansion (Crystal Core and the re-emergence of Jade Druid).
As powerful as Blizzard may seem, the meta is ultimately shaped by Hearthstone’s 70 million players much more than the developers - and this often happens in unpredictable ways.
Since I’ve not been playing long enough to really know what I’m talking about, and you admitted that it may be too early to tell - there probably isn’t anything more to say at this point, and we should wait and see what happens in the weeks and months to come.
But because I am really bored and clearly have no life, I took the time to look back at the Vicious Syndicate reports from the final days of Karkazhan until now, and I learned much.
Here are some highlights, and if anyone is still reading this blather: I thank you! (Note: the #’s refer to Vicious Syndicate Data Reaper reports, which I assume are a trusted source).
The number of Tier 1 and Tier 2 archetypes decreased during the course of Un’goro, more so than during the transition to Frozen Throne: At the start of Un’goro there were indeed 12 decks in the top two tiers (ie: with win rates higher than 50%). This reflected a nice, healthy balance at the top levels. I was surprised to see that this number actually decreased to 7 by the end of that period. Since the introduction of KFT, it has further been reduced to 6.
Winrate differential at the start of the last two expansions was actually higher than it is now: If you calculate the difference between the highest and lowest win rates at the start of both MSoG (17.9) and Un’goro (18.8), the spread was actually slightly more narrow than it was at the start of KFT (17.09).
As expected, the gap between the best and least performing decks in Tiers 1-4 decreased significantly between the beginning and the end of each expansion. In both cases, the imbalance that could be observed at the beginning of the meta was reduced towards the end. I seen no reason to not expect this trend will continue for KFT.*
Jade Druid is NOT responsible for the success of Pirate Warrior and Murloc Paladin. Vicious Syndicate issued 15 data reaper reports during the Un’goro Meta. Pirate Warrior was listed as Tier 1 in all but one of these. Murloc and/or Midrange Paladin were rated Tier 1 in EVERY single report during this period. Jade Druid does not appear even as Tier 2 in any of these reports.
*(PS - I recognize that these numbers do not tell the whole story of meta diversity, but they do serve as an indication and I’m trying to keep things relatively simple. You’ll just have to trust me that they are a reflection of the variety at large, and/or look at the reports yourself.)
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/tag/data-reaper-report/?utm_source=main-nav&utm_medium=linkeh. I dont enjoy playing against druid, but I win most of the time. I play n'zoth warrior (with hemet) and if I draw hemet on curve I can easily stabilize and start pounding them with tempo from scourgelord garrosh, big direhorns and TLK. I actually perfer UI in druid than auctioneer; in ungoro I would be crushed by druid because they would play auctioneer and go from 4/4 jade to 10/10 in one turn. I dont run brawl (for more tempo cards and ooze) so that was always game over for me. That being said, I think that druid IS too strong right now.
I was much more happy loosing to quest rogue T5/6 than jade druid T11/12. When blizzard nerfed quest they should have also changed jade idol.
To sum it up, although my winrate is fine VS jade druid, I dislike how it has polarized the meta and pushed out all other control decks. This adversely effects the midrange decks I play, and means that other fun decks that I would like to play more (such as DK warlock) are not viable.
@booganzoth
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I also wanted to add that I think this will often be the case with the 2nd expansion of each cycle. To elaborate, I don't expect the 2nd expansions of each cycle to be as impactful as the 1st and 3rd ones. Typically the 1st expansion will be introduced at times when the power level of the decks drops the most overall and so its much more likely for new archetypes to find a place in the meta and be competitive. If the 2nd expansion is designed to be on a similar power level than I think its less likely to impact the meta as much, because a good chunk of already competitively viable archetypes are in the mix and if any cards in the 2nd expansion of a cycle aid those decks they will only become stronger (due to both the decks already having been strong and also because people are more experienced in piloting pre-existing decks) and let's not forget that its much cheaper to upgrade a list than to craft an entirely new one. On the 3rd expansion I think they choose to take more risks introducing some very powerful cards, since those will anyway remain in rotation for the smallest period of time (~ 16 months) as we saw with MSG, which means that 3rd expansions of a cycle are more likely to have an impact on the state of the game than the 2nd.
@Grimlokus: I enjoyed reading about your favorite decks - I always get a kick out of learning what people are having fun with, so thanks for answering that part of my query.
Most of the rest of your comments I covered in my response to Criptfied, which you may or may not be interested in reading (above).
But I did want to respond directly to your point about Pirate Warrior, Murloc Paladin and Aggro Druid.
You wrote "Have you considered these decks have such a high win rate BECAUSE Jade Druid is widespread rather than DESPITE it? " and "You're not thinking about WHY they're doing better." On the contrary, I am indeed very much thinking about the overall context, and I do understand the point you are trying to make - I just don't agree.
Pirate Warrior, Murloc Paladin and Aggro Druid are not "doing better" because of of Jade Druid - they have been consistently leading for months now. Yes the diversity of archetypes has decreased for the moment, but these three have collectively made up at least a full quarter if not more of the top T1-T2 decks throughout Un'goro - even as others have rotated in and out.
Since you cited TempoStorm, I also took a look at each of their six different reports issued during the Un’goro meta.
Pirate Warrior and Aggro Druid are rated as Tier 1 decks in every single one of the reports during this period from April through August. Midrange and/or Murloc Pally rank as top tier in all but 1. All of this was - by your own admission - well before the recent re-emergence of Jade Druid.
So please explain to me how Jade Druid is to blame for the persistent predominance of Pirate Warrior, Aggro Druid and Murloc Paladin? They have not been less than top tier throughout the entire Un'goro meta regardless of what Jade Druid was doing.
There is no question that there is less diversity at the moment than there was during the hey day of Un'goro, and this is unfortunate. But to claim that Jade Druid is solely responsible for this is a stretch.
I think a lot more of it has to do with the start of a new meta, and people at first latching on to whatever is working best with the least amount of effort. We've seen this before.
My prediction is that - as innovative players find new ways to win - much of that diversity will return before too long, without intervention from the developers. Only time will tell.
tl;dr - Clearly I have too much time on my hands, and I need to get a life.
I do agree with this, I think it's too early to nerf stuff. I just wanted to somewhat challenge some of the ideas (that I perceived) being put forth that just because things worked out in the past that they are guaranteed to in the future and that the current situation isn't worrying. But I just wanted to put out at the start of this post I think I agree with you overall in what needs to be done, I just have a pessimistic view of the future instead of an optimistic one. So, that out of the way, I hope you don't mind if I challenge a few more of your statements, for the sake of conversation if nothing else.
I think this is a little bit misleading when trying to get across the idea of how diverse things are in comparison between Un'goro and now. Exspecally when you muddy the waters by throwing in the bottom T4 decks into the mix (which are almost irrelevant for this comparison) VS hard break points on tier lists are set up for the metas that they started their reports in, and aren't super accurate ways to compare across broad swaths of metas. Especially healthy metas like un'goro (or unhealthy metas like I belive that kotft is currently in) don't work perfectly within the lines, something they themselves note in one of the un'goro reports.
What I specifically want to point out to you is the difference between the top deck/decks and the runner up ones. Even at the end of Un'goro the top deck was within four or five percentage points of ten other decks. Whereas now the top deck is that far away from three decks. That's a huge difference. And the important one. Directly saying "well, both t2 and t1 are populated" ignores that now the T1 decks are as far away from t2 decks as the t1 decks in un'goro were from the mid t3 decks. The same spread that the big 4 have in this meta encompassed more then double their number in the previous meta, that's the true narrowing of diversity. And that lack of diversity in the win rates holds out, except for priest, which is the only class not in the big 4 with a positive win rate, all the other classes drop in play rate as druid skyrockets.
I think this is arguable. They are clearly quite powerful decks on their own. But they've not become more powerful with the release of kotft. Their win rate has skyrocketed though. Once again it's a bit of an issue with comparing tier listings directly with each other without paying attention to win rate. Pirate warrior has gained enough win rate that it would have climbed two tiers if it wasn't already tier one. If you look at the match up spread it's easy to see, these are the three decks that have a good win rate against jade druid, which is the most popular deck in the game currently. Certainly they are strong on their own, but it's jade druid taking over the meta that's allowed them to flourish this much. In the idea situation they'd become a big enough force in the meta to force jade druid out in favor of more anti aggro decks. But the question there is going to be if there's actually other decks that are so much better then jade druid at being anti aggro and still have a good match up against other decks that they are worth running over just running jade druid, which isn't awful against these decks anyway.
Jade druid isn't supposed to be a tempo deck
Easy change
All jade cards now summon the new Jade Golem
Jade Golem
1 Mana 1/1
Deathrattle : The for the rest of the game, your Jade Golems will have +1/+1
Removes insane temp swings from Jades 3-6 when you spam multiple out in the same turn
Druid got way too many op cards in frozen throne
I'm not usually one to complain but this time gotta say Druid is killing my fun. Not playing much anymore.
90% of my games are now Murloc Paladin, Jade Druid, or Pirate Warrior.
It's demoralizing and boring.
I refuse to play one of these decks. Whenever I beat one, I hope an angel gets its wings.
Mr tough guy? Then you are in for a big surprise in the real work my friend lol
Mr tough guy? Then you are in for a big surprise in the real world my friend lol