Hearthpwn

@malfy This is how you know you're talking to a shitter who's first card game was Hearthstone. Anytime someone defends fast mana as not being problematic, or as essential to the game for some reason, are absolute knuckle draggers or children who haven't been around long enough to remember Black Summer. Listen, friend, fast mana is the most broken thing you can do in any card game where resources are a thing. This isn't my opinion, this is common knowledge that's been known to basically everyone playing any card game. Innervate is completely stupid, it's removal would make the game better. Do you honestly enjoy losing to turn 1 on the play Viscous Fledgling? Or do you just enjoy doing it to other people? Either way it's degenerate and unwelcome in any card game without counterplay to stop the fast mana.

Quote from fiendishsupernova >>

@malfy This is how you know you're talking to a shitter who's first card game was Hearthstone. Anytime someone defends fast mana as not being problematic, or as essential to the game for some reason, are absolute knuckle draggers or children who haven't been around long enough to remember Black Summer. Listen, friend, fast mana is the most broken thing you can do in any card game where resources are a thing. This isn't my opinion, this is common knowledge that's been known to basically everyone playing any card game. Innervate is completely stupid, it's removal would make the game better. Do you honestly enjoy losing to turn 1 on the play Viscous Fledgling? Or do you just enjoy doing it to other people? Either way it's degenerate and unwelcome in any card game without counterplay to stop the fast mana.

Quote from TheRealMalfurion >>

Quote from fiendishsupernova >>

@malfy This is how you know you're talking to a shitter who's first card game was Hearthstone. Anytime someone defends fast mana as not being problematic, or as essential to the game for some reason, are absolute knuckle draggers or children who haven't been around long enough to remember Black Summer. Listen, friend, fast mana is the most broken thing you can do in any card game where resources are a thing. This isn't my opinion, this is common knowledge that's been known to basically everyone playing any card game. Innervate is completely stupid, it's removal would make the game better. Do you honestly enjoy losing to turn 1 on the play Viscous Fledgling? Or do you just enjoy doing it to other people? Either way it's degenerate and unwelcome in any card game without counterplay to stop the fast mana.

 Sure dude, since you're such an expert why don't you run your Druid lists without Innervate and then come back and talk to me about fast mana being problematic. You seem to forget that in Hearthstone getting mana works differently than in other games. As I said one look at the cheap cards in Druid will tell you enough about why Innervate and Wild Growth. With the current set of cards available for Druid in Standard cutting out Innervate means that the only viable and consistent strategy is Aggro, which isn't even that good anymore since its not like you can use Innervate to get out your big threats quickly.

These 2 Basic Ramp cards are at the base of class identity more so than in any other class and removing them would probably destroy the class given the fact that every class printed so far for Druid has been made so by considering Innervate.

Can I also just say how stupid it is to compare HS to other card games. From what I know (since you are right and this is my first card game) Magic works much differently than Hearthstone in terms of having resource cards and regular cards (Idk if there's a specific term for these). In Hearthstone you have only one of those types of cards, so you can't make such comparisons at all. I invite you though to make a good Druid deck that can get to Legend without Innervate. If you can't do that just shut up. Your previous experience in other card games doesn't mean as much when the card games being studied are so different. I have played HS long enough to know that just running Wild Growth will have disastrous impact on any slower archetype of Druid, so I don't need bad comparisons from people like you. Its not about me enjoying using it against my opponents, but about how vital it is to Druid (unless we resort to reprints, which doesn't solve what people crying for nerfs want in the first place) to be playable.

Quote from batanete >>

Quote from TheRealMalfurion >>

Quote from fiendishsupernova >>

@malfy This is how you know you're talking to a shitter who's first card game was Hearthstone. Anytime someone defends fast mana as not being problematic, or as essential to the game for some reason, are absolute knuckle draggers or children who haven't been around long enough to remember Black Summer. Listen, friend, fast mana is the most broken thing you can do in any card game where resources are a thing. This isn't my opinion, this is common knowledge that's been known to basically everyone playing any card game. Innervate is completely stupid, it's removal would make the game better. Do you honestly enjoy losing to turn 1 on the play Viscous Fledgling? Or do you just enjoy doing it to other people? Either way it's degenerate and unwelcome in any card game without counterplay to stop the fast mana.

 Sure dude, since you're such an expert why don't you run your Druid lists without Innervate and then come back and talk to me about fast mana being problematic. You seem to forget that in Hearthstone getting mana works differently than in other games. As I said one look at the cheap cards in Druid will tell you enough about why Innervate and Wild Growth. With the current set of cards available for Druid in Standard cutting out Innervate means that the only viable and consistent strategy is Aggro, which isn't even that good anymore since its not like you can use Innervate to get out your big threats quickly.

These 2 Basic Ramp cards are at the base of class identity more so than in any other class and removing them would probably destroy the class given the fact that every class printed so far for Druid has been made so by considering Innervate.

Can I also just say how stupid it is to compare HS to other card games. From what I know (since you are right and this is my first card game) Magic works much differently than Hearthstone in terms of having resource cards and regular cards (Idk if there's a specific term for these). In Hearthstone you have only one of those types of cards, so you can't make such comparisons at all. I invite you though to make a good Druid deck that can get to Legend without Innervate. If you can't do that just shut up. Your previous experience in other card games doesn't mean as much when the card games being studied are so different. I have played HS long enough to know that just running Wild Growth will have disastrous impact on any slower archetype of Druid, so I don't need bad comparisons from people like you. Its not about me enjoying using it against my opponents, but about how vital it is to Druid (unless we resort to reprints, which doesn't solve what people crying for nerfs want in the first place) to be playable.

 Nobody is saying that if they do remove Innervate, they shouldn't add something else to make up for it. But as it is, the card is beyond broken, and always has been.

Plus what if we do make druid bad for one expansion? Since it's the ONLY class in the game that has never been below tier two since beta of hearthstone, and only second to warrior as the two classes that have never been the outright worse, I don't see how that wouldn't be fair.

Quote from TheRealMalfurion >>

Quote from batanete >>

Quote from TheRealMalfurion >>

Quote from fiendishsupernova >>

@malfy This is how you know you're talking to a shitter who's first card game was Hearthstone. Anytime someone defends fast mana as not being problematic, or as essential to the game for some reason, are absolute knuckle draggers or children who haven't been around long enough to remember Black Summer. Listen, friend, fast mana is the most broken thing you can do in any card game where resources are a thing. This isn't my opinion, this is common knowledge that's been known to basically everyone playing any card game. Innervate is completely stupid, it's removal would make the game better. Do you honestly enjoy losing to turn 1 on the play Viscous Fledgling? Or do you just enjoy doing it to other people? Either way it's degenerate and unwelcome in any card game without counterplay to stop the fast mana.

 Sure dude, since you're such an expert why don't you run your Druid lists without Innervate and then come back and talk to me about fast mana being problematic. You seem to forget that in Hearthstone getting mana works differently than in other games. As I said one look at the cheap cards in Druid will tell you enough about why Innervate and Wild Growth. With the current set of cards available for Druid in Standard cutting out Innervate means that the only viable and consistent strategy is Aggro, which isn't even that good anymore since its not like you can use Innervate to get out your big threats quickly.

These 2 Basic Ramp cards are at the base of class identity more so than in any other class and removing them would probably destroy the class given the fact that every class printed so far for Druid has been made so by considering Innervate.

Can I also just say how stupid it is to compare HS to other card games. From what I know (since you are right and this is my first card game) Magic works much differently than Hearthstone in terms of having resource cards and regular cards (Idk if there's a specific term for these). In Hearthstone you have only one of those types of cards, so you can't make such comparisons at all. I invite you though to make a good Druid deck that can get to Legend without Innervate. If you can't do that just shut up. Your previous experience in other card games doesn't mean as much when the card games being studied are so different. I have played HS long enough to know that just running Wild Growth will have disastrous impact on any slower archetype of Druid, so I don't need bad comparisons from people like you. Its not about me enjoying using it against my opponents, but about how vital it is to Druid (unless we resort to reprints, which doesn't solve what people crying for nerfs want in the first place) to be playable.

 Nobody is saying that if they do remove Innervate, they shouldn't add something else to make up for it. But as it is, the card is beyond broken, and always has been.

Plus what if we do make druid bad for one expansion? Since it's the ONLY class in the game that has never been below tier two since beta of hearthstone, and only second to warrior as the two classes that have never been the outright worse, I don't see how that wouldn't be fair.

 Its not about that though. If you cut the card only to add a reprint later what's the point? If you cut Innervate with the thinking that fast mana shouldn't be a thing then you should never put it in Standard again, because as @fiendishsupernova was saying fast mana is apparently "broken" in any card game, than logically I don't see them reprinting anything remotely similar if they remove this. Just because Druid has never been below tier 2 ever so far, doesn't mean putting it below tier 2 forever or having it be another Aggro class. In fact, I am starting to think that people talking like this about Innervate have barely played any Druid and don't understand the impact of such a rotation (if the intention is of not bringing any new early game fast ramp effects).

>150 posts in this thread

>nobody links Group therapy!/Mega salty? thread

WTF?

@batanete

I understand the arguments against it perfectly well, but I don't see interesting paths for the Ramp Class of the game if you cut even one of its core Ramp cards (this is much different from the nerfs upon the first rotation). I guess that I can't convince those who want to see this card rotate, but you can't convince me either that this card can be reasonably replaced without resorting to reprints so I guess I just have to hope Blizzard doesn't give in to these demands, since I'd rather be able to play Druid rather than have it be unplayable, given that its my favorite class. I guess I will leave it at this and lets agree to disagree with both you and @fiendishsupernova since I can already tell further conversation will get us nowhere.

Quote from TheRealMalfurion >>

There is no way they can rotate out Innervate and/or Wild Growth without turning the class into an utter joke or forcing themselves to make cards to replace these cards for all time. Have you seen the proactive plays of Druid for 1 - 3 Mana or does the babyrage-infused salt blind you all?

Those two cards are the core of any Druid and with just 2 cheap ramp cards its hard enough now to get any consistency for slower Druid archetypes, what do you guys think would happen if 1 of them was rotated out, without a backup plan?

Druid would basically be a new and worse Hunter Class for all intents and purposes, playing Aggro Token decks, because it can't play from behind and just relying on drawing Wild Growth early is so inconsistent its not even funny. Reynad has lost his mind if he thinks that that change is balanced in any way, it would just delete a few Druid archetypes to satisfy unwarranted whining, because we are still just 1 week into the expansion. Want to counter slower Druids? Play board-centric aggro or Midrange decks and there problem solved.

Ramp has been a viable non-broken strategy forever just because Jade Druid is pushing it doesn't mean Druid should be deleted as a class.

What id like is if Blizzard talked more about balance and the like. As is, it's very hard to actually have a good discussion on this with nearly no recent idea of their current thinking. 

Quote from BestHearthstoneGamer >>

They are all over in ranks 15 and higher so I've faced plenty. It doesn't matter what deck I am playing. Even with a PERFECT draw on something like Pirate Warrior you can't top a half-lucky druid. They have too much power in nearly every area of this game - they can trigger huge amounts of armor, they can summon giant boards, they have huge card draw, they have decent wipes and good removal, and they can do all of it whenever they want thanks to ramp. By turn 6 as a perfectly played pirate warrior I will face down a Druid at 4 Health who can (thanks to a DK hero power that is massively unbalanced) gain 3 armor a turn, plus Earthen scales himself for another 12 armor while still summoning 7/7 and 8/8 minions and drawing cards in a single turn. There is no comeback potential or way to take down a Druid once you get past turn 6 (when they are now sitting at 10 mana per turn along with at least 1 innervate waiting). This needs to be addressed by Blizzard because Druid is above a 62% winrate on hsreplay, the highest winrate a deck has ever had in this game, and it's only not higher because at rank 5 and above 60% of the decks are all druid so it's Druid vs Druid. . 

Go play rank 15 dude. And stop making complaining worthless post

Quote from DireDoge >>

>150 posts in this thread

>nobody links Group therapy!/Mega salty? thread

WTF?

 I am sorry if I am not understanding something on your thoughts, but I don't understand how what you just said relates to what I am saying. Its okay for Druid to struggle sometimes based on the card pool it has, but to me that will always be the case if Innervate or a card that adequately replaces its effect doesn't exist in rotation (because of how disadvantaged you are when playing from behind). Its one thing to make a class bad for a period of time, but not forever. In fact, I would directly compare Innervate to Life Tap, since both constrain design a lot, but are also at the core of their respective classes. I mean Life Tap is the reason a lot of Warlock cards are so bad and Innervate is the reason Druid's early game is so bad. Could you see them reworking Life Tap under any circumstance? I can't, especially because all previous sets have been designed with that Hero Power in mind, and something similar can be said for a lot of Druid cards that have been printed with Innervate in mind. I think this change would be much more impactful than a lot of people think, even crippling, unless of course we do resort to reprints, at which point, I would say that it would be better to just be more careful with cards printed than by moving a Basic card to the Hall of Fame.

TL;DR; I am not saying that Druid is the class that shouldn't be touched and always remain good, but Innervate and Wild Growth are essential cards for any slower form of Druid (not to mention at the core of class identity), so I can't understand how a change like this would be appropriate.

play wild then...with renolock i have 90% win rate vs jade druid...only problems for me are priests...50-50 that i can win...control vs control is fcked up haha one wrong move (card played) on turn 4-5 you may lose you game on turn 15 cause of that hahaha there is lot of thinking before playing any card hah thats why i love control matchup and wild format!!!

Quote from Bridius >>

Quote from DyingAtheist >>

Hall of Faming Innervate is ludicrous to me, it's quintissential druid, it's THE class card for Druid more than literally any other in my opinion. If they'd just nerfed Jade Idol instead of the tech card for it we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 How is Jade Idol the card making Druid overpowered right now? Are we playing the same game...

I dont know why you guys are crying about Jade Druid.. You should enjoy the game! The meta is so diverse right now..

I played 8 games this morning at rank 3 with control warlock and midrange hunter and if you let out the 1 midhunter and the 3 murloc Paladins (dont let this distract you) the other four games where agains 4 different Druid archetypes! Ramp Druid, Jade, aggro and "taunt"..

At least in aggro druid I conceded on turn 3 (didnt have to go all the way to 10 mana and lose) and I also won a game against Druids because lucky me! Druid ramped at 10 mana while I was at 6-7 and the unlucky dude didnt draw Ultimate Brokenstation to cum back to the game!! Of course as handlock I had drawn almost perfectly with giants for this to happen

Meta is so fun now!!

Hey guys if you're looking for something that has close to 100% win rate on jade druid try exodia mage.

I don't know what's the fuss about, i find DK Priest a much heavier deck to beat nowadays.