Hearthpwn

This is such a ridiculous post. Every new mechanic breaks the rules because it's new.

Card games are constrained by the fact that they are card games. Deck destruction is one mechanic that all card games have in some form or another. This isn't even a particularly good example of it.

Quote from ArgentumEmperio >>

Time Warp is an additional win-condition. If you wish to be more sane and safe in regards to how you build your deck, its not difficult to add something like Arcane Giant to the list or rely on the numerous burn spells you'll have access to.

Reno Jackson, Mountain Giant, Twilight Drake, Lord Jaraxxus are the way you win in Renolock. Leeroy Jenkins + Power Overwhelming + Faceless Manipulator was an additional finisher, not the other way around.

Freeze Mage has always had access to burn spells. Frostbolt, Fireball, Ice Lance, Forgotten Torch, Pyroblast, Firelands Portal - all of these spells times 2 has been the win condition of Freeze mage, that and chip-damage from minions and even using Medivh's Valet - Alexstrasza was only an additional way to 'burn' someone down that wasn't even run in aggressive freeze-decks. Oh and also spellpower increasing the damage, can't forget Bloodmage Thalnos.

Tomb Pillager, Malygos, Cold Blood, Violet Teacher, Conceal are all ways Miracle rogue has been played since Naxx. Not to mention the recent addition of Sherazin, Corpse Flower.

 

Gnomeferatu will most often than not help decks along but... even in the cases where it hits the 'one' card that you want it to hit, a sensible player can build a deck that doesn't work purely on a gimmick. That or you are fine losing a lot for that gimmick... finally coming full-circle back to; "The decks that only run on one win-condition is either a purely fun- or a purely broken deck".

Quote from aposteljoe >>

Ok, you gave in your examples a lot of crucial cards. I will give you for scenarios with one of that cards. Let's take for example Antonidas. But you could easily replace Toni with one of the other mentioned cards: Alex, crucial hard removal and so on.

Scenario 1: You play your super combo mage deck. What nobody knows: Tony lies on bottom of your deck (= will be the last card you'll draw).  Board is emtpy. I play River Crocolisk on turn 2.

So we have the following state:

• you will never draw Antonidas
• I have a RC on board

Will you win that game? Most likely, because my deck must be crap if I got nothing better to play on turn 2 then a RC. It'll be a fast and easy win for you.

Scenario 2: Same as Sc.1, but this time I play a River Crocolisk with the text "Show the bottom card of your opponents library to all players".

So we have the following state:

• you will never draw Antonidas
• I have a RC on board
• we both know you will never draw Antonidas

Will you win that game? Sure, not much changed. My deck is still crap. We both will play differently because of the additional information, of course.

Scenario 3: Same as Sc.1, but this time I play a River Crocolisk with the text "Remove the bottom card of your opponents library".

So we have the following state:

• you will never draw Antonidas
• I have a RC on board
• we both know you will never draw Antonidas
• you are 1 turn closer to fatigue

Will you win that game? Sure, not much changed. You know that you'll win before you would have drawn him anyways. Hey, I'm playing a damn River Crocolisk...

Scenario 4: Same as Sc.1, but this time Antonidas is on top of you deck and I play a Gnomeferatu.

So we have the following state:

• you will never draw Antonidas
• I have a RC on board
• we both know you will never draw Antonidas
• you are 1 turn closer to fatigue
• the game gives you the impression that Antonidas would have been the next card drawn

Will you win that game? No, you will rage concede because I "destroyed" your combo. But the difference to scenario 1 is marginal.

So the power of Gnomeferatu is more of a psychological one. Of course there are some cases in which the card would have influence of the game: if it goes to fatigue, if you have other tools to reliable mill your opponents deck, if there are cards to manipulate the (top of the) library.

 

 

it does not matter if the card is good or not, the mechanic is toxic and destroys the game - it is more than uninteractive and a horrible design after all.

Exactly, the entire point of this card is to make your opponent want to knock you out because you both see what card they burned. 

How the hell is that fun and interactive?

This card should be removed based on that alone.

I wish people would stop pretending that HS is an interactive game, and then using lack of interactivity as a criticism.

People don't understand this card has more backfire potential than advantage. Against let's say Quest Mage, a list that can only kill with the 2 Apprentices, the 2 Reflections and Antonidas, you have 5/30, 1 out of 6 to mill a combo piece. Which means, every other 5 out of 6 cards you would mill is you helping him to find his combo pieces faster. Of course RNG is RNG and you could win in the spot, but isnt a mid-late Dirty Rat JUST BETTER?

Same can apply to Aggro. For Example Pirates has Leeroy and 2 Arcanite Reapers as "late use cards". Maybe we can add Mortal Strike although we should not as it is used as removal a lot of times. Again, 5/30 or worse, 3/30. The other cards are irrelevant, as the early-mid game is already going on.

And against Midrange, a River Crocolisc is just bad. You don't care what they mill, they don't care what they milled. Just bad.

The Info is good, but pointless when most of the times the card removed benefits your opponent. Of course removing Tyrion or an Equality is good, but they have more wincons and removals, so in the end it is not worth against it, and it is bad against combo-aggro.

Finally, 2 mana 2/3 doesn't help Zoo, Control Lock, and for sure not Discard Lock if that ever happens...

This card really boils down to the fact that we are playing a CARD GAME. I can not think of a single card game in of which it is not luck based, or RNG based. If you want to play an all skill game go play COD or some other crap. When you play a game of poker, if one of the flips is bad for you than you may lose even though odds were in your favor. It is impossible to have a 100% win rate in this game which makes it fun. People need to realize that cards game involve luck its how we deal with bad or good luck that makes us good players.

Quote from Tyujy >>

This card really boils down to the fact that we are playing a CARD GAME. I can not think of a single card game in of which it is luck based, or RNG based. If you want to play an all skill game go play COD or some other crap. When you play a game of poker, if one of the flips is bad for you than you may lose even though odds were in your favor. It is impossible to have a 100% winrate in this game which makes it fun. People need to realize that cards game involve luck its how we deal with bad or good luck that makes us good players.