So, we just had the new Warlock Epic card, Gnomish Vampire, be revealed earlier today. The card itself is average in terms of power, but I can guarantee that we will see it in almost every Warlock deck after the expansion.
The reason why is because this card has no counterplay...period. In a game like Hearthstone, there needs to be counterplay, ways to counteract whatever your opponent does. Yes, alot of it can be gated by RNG, to where you have no answers to your opponent simply because you haven't gained access to one yet.
You might be saying "Well, there are plenty of cards in the game with no counterplay." Actually, no, there isn't. Up until this point, you could either answer or prevent any play from your opponent. Take Flamestrike for example. You have no way to control when your opponent will use the card, but, any good Hearthstone player will build their board in a certain way as to make sure their opponent gets the least amount of value, thus, forcing their opponent to either hold onto the card for longer than they want, or waste it in an inopportune time.
Another example is Dirty Rat, which, alot of people have been comparing Gnomish Vampire too. Thing is, Dirty Rat has the unique case where it can completely backfire on you. I'm sure we've all seen those clips where a Rat pulls out a Ragnaros on turn 2. And even if the Rat doesn't particularly backfire on you, your opponent still has a chance to use whatever the Rat pulls out essentially for free.
With Gnomish Vampire, you can't prevent the battlecry. You can't use anything to counter its effect. You can not, in any way, shape, or form, make your opponent second guess themselves as to playing the card. It doesn't backfire on them, and even if whatever it burns is effectively useless in the given situation, it is still an advantage for your opponent that you can not stop, or have prevented in any way possible.
I don't think the card itself is game breaking, but, it is worrisome. If Blizzard had decided to put a card like Gnomish Vampire into the game, that means they are no willing to design cards that have ZERO counterplay whatsoever. If they continue to go down this road, Hearthstone will not survive for much longer.
That's quite the wild claim. There are a number of cards in MTG that read that the card can't be countered. MTG has been a thing for many more years than Hearthstone. The idea that it breaks a cardinal rule is ridiculous, as it's been part of other games for years.
It's honestly not even a good card, unless there are enough other cards to actually make a mill deck work. Imagine you are playing a control deck with a win condition you absolutely have to draw. Sometimes gnomish vampire happens to discard it, which sucks. But sometimes your win condition would be one turn too late. And in those instances, gnomish vampire helps you by bringing you one card closer to the card you need.
A fairly accurate way to think about the effect is that gnomish vampire puts the top card of your deck onto the bottom of your deck. Because for most decks, it is very rare that you will end up drawing the bottom of your deck. Since this effect doesn't actually provide any immediate advantage, it basically makes the card a vanilla 2/3, which really isn't worth playing. It's only all that powerful of a card against combo decks with quite a few cards that they cannot win the game without.
Alright, I guess "summon" effects do keep it down. But then, most summon effects are gated by RNG, and it isn't strong enough to where if it is pulled out by summon effects, your opponent doesn't lose much.
So, would we call that counterplay, or a side effect of RNG?
I don't agree that there is no counter play (dirty rat, death lord, or not playing a deck where you need a specific card at any given moment like a combo deck). While it is hard to counter, the real issue lies with the interactivity of the card. Long story short, it isn't. The card essentially can disregard what has gone on in the game and can mess with your opponent in a way that can't be fixed once it has begun.
This isn't about the card, or the stats, or its average performance, or how popular it will be.
To me, the crux of the matter is the mechanic in principle, and the fact that it (assuming this is not some kind of hoax or mistake) is now a precedent in the game. This kind of mechanic should never have stepped foot in this game, let alone as a battlecry. My interest in this expansion and this game as a whole has just taken a giant nose-dive. And how two-faced Blizzard must be, rationalizing things based on a lack of interactivity and then opening the door to this kind of hot garbage into the game?
The problem I have with this topic is it's based on a very arbitrary definition of "no counter play."
For practical purposes for instance (Eg, competitive decks), most things a Mage does has no counter play too.
There is just about nothing a non-Mage can do to stop fireballs going where they want to. Same with Ice Block. Vast majority of decks cannot afford to run eater of secrets.
They can occasionally be played around but nothing to truly counter it.
This card I think is too bad to see real play. 2 big advantages of Dirty Rat is 1. Can react to whatever comes out. 2. It's a 2/6 for 2. Great stats. This is just a vanilla that rarely will actually make a difference and likely will hurt. Bad tempo card.
Most games it is simply a vanilla minion because you don't draw all your deck.
^^This.
True, but now you have to possibly deal with the reality that both your high value answers are on the bottom of your deck. The fact that the threat that would have been drawn is now removed is an advantage. Its hard to gauge how well this is going to perform, because the information just won't be there for you. You won't simply know that the mage was missing a Fireball, or a Polymorph. However, atleast, whatever it was, wasn't played against you in some way.
You also get an on-curve minion for early board control. Something Warlock was missing from their quadriplegic roster.
Most games it is simply a vanilla minion because you don't draw all your deck.
^^This.
^^Seconded!
Except in the games when you do? Also, you're forgetting that it's removing the top card of your opponent's deck. This effectively nerfs topdecks, as it means the card your opponent would've drawn next turn is completely gone. It could've been the perfect answer to the current boardstate, or it may not have been, but there's a good chance that it would've been, considering the proportion of decks that run a whole deck of good cards, rather than having dead cards like Loot Hoarder to draw. This card limits Hearthstone's design space in an even worse manner than Conceal, especially as this is but the first foray into messing with your opponent's deck... They said they would never do this, and everyone thought they shouldn't. Now that they have, you think it's magically okay? Where did that come from?
I don't get what's all the fuss about. Sure, it's definitely something new, but i'm not quite sure who will care less for their card burned - highlander decks that basically have multiple different cards for same purpose, or regular decks, who run 2 of anyway. Once in a blue moon you're going to burn something valuable that will win you the game (reno for example) but that will be so rare it's a statistical error. So chill out, don't give us that cardinal breaking rule stuff like this is poker and you're making a living off it.
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So, we just had the new Warlock Epic card, Gnomish Vampire, be revealed earlier today. The card itself is average in terms of power, but I can guarantee that we will see it in almost every Warlock deck after the expansion.
The reason why is because this card has no counterplay...period. In a game like Hearthstone, there needs to be counterplay, ways to counteract whatever your opponent does. Yes, alot of it can be gated by RNG, to where you have no answers to your opponent simply because you haven't gained access to one yet.
You might be saying "Well, there are plenty of cards in the game with no counterplay." Actually, no, there isn't. Up until this point, you could either answer or prevent any play from your opponent. Take Flamestrike for example. You have no way to control when your opponent will use the card, but, any good Hearthstone player will build their board in a certain way as to make sure their opponent gets the least amount of value, thus, forcing their opponent to either hold onto the card for longer than they want, or waste it in an inopportune time.
Another example is Dirty Rat, which, alot of people have been comparing Gnomish Vampire too. Thing is, Dirty Rat has the unique case where it can completely backfire on you. I'm sure we've all seen those clips where a Rat pulls out a Ragnaros on turn 2. And even if the Rat doesn't particularly backfire on you, your opponent still has a chance to use whatever the Rat pulls out essentially for free.
With Gnomish Vampire, you can't prevent the battlecry. You can't use anything to counter its effect. You can not, in any way, shape, or form, make your opponent second guess themselves as to playing the card. It doesn't backfire on them, and even if whatever it burns is effectively useless in the given situation, it is still an advantage for your opponent that you can not stop, or have prevented in any way possible.
I don't think the card itself is game breaking, but, it is worrisome. If Blizzard had decided to put a card like Gnomish Vampire into the game, that means they are no willing to design cards that have ZERO counterplay whatsoever. If they continue to go down this road, Hearthstone will not survive for much longer.
tl;dr, include card in question in post next time.
Dirty Rat it out.
Argument invalid.
Well actually there is a counter to this card - By playing a deck in which losing a particular card doesn't matter- i.e. Aggro/Midrange.
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While it would have been much worse, it would have been nice to see this card have an up-side and down-side.
Like, "you and your opponent each remove the top card of your deck."
or
"Remove the top card of your opponent's deck, then they draw a card."
Rather than just straight up, regular two drop stats, with an effect that ranges from mediocre to rage quitting.
Haha this is beautiful.
That's quite the wild claim. There are a number of cards in MTG that read that the card can't be countered. MTG has been a thing for many more years than Hearthstone. The idea that it breaks a cardinal rule is ridiculous, as it's been part of other games for years.
Case closed.
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It's honestly not even a good card, unless there are enough other cards to actually make a mill deck work. Imagine you are playing a control deck with a win condition you absolutely have to draw. Sometimes gnomish vampire happens to discard it, which sucks. But sometimes your win condition would be one turn too late. And in those instances, gnomish vampire helps you by bringing you one card closer to the card you need.
A fairly accurate way to think about the effect is that gnomish vampire puts the top card of your deck onto the bottom of your deck. Because for most decks, it is very rare that you will end up drawing the bottom of your deck. Since this effect doesn't actually provide any immediate advantage, it basically makes the card a vanilla 2/3, which really isn't worth playing. It's only all that powerful of a card against combo decks with quite a few cards that they cannot win the game without.
Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.
I don't agree that there is no counter play (dirty rat, death lord, or not playing a deck where you need a specific card at any given moment like a combo deck). While it is hard to counter, the real issue lies with the interactivity of the card. Long story short, it isn't. The card essentially can disregard what has gone on in the game and can mess with your opponent in a way that can't be fixed once it has begun.
There is plenty of cards with no counterplays. What are you talking about.
For example Eater of secrets can't be countered in any way. Coldlight Oracle can't be countered.
I think the card itself is very strong but I'm not sure which deck it will fit in.
It's an irrelevant card versus 80% of the decks in HS, and it will only be relevant versus the rest a small fraction of the time.
Plus Warlock never plans to win on fatigue...
Card is cute, but irrelevant - unless warlock gets more card destruction.
This isn't about the card, or the stats, or its average performance, or how popular it will be.
To me, the crux of the matter is the mechanic in principle, and the fact that it (assuming this is not some kind of hoax or mistake) is now a precedent in the game. This kind of mechanic should never have stepped foot in this game, let alone as a battlecry. My interest in this expansion and this game as a whole has just taken a giant nose-dive. And how two-faced Blizzard must be, rationalizing things based on a lack of interactivity and then opening the door to this kind of hot garbage into the game?
The problem I have with this topic is it's based on a very arbitrary definition of "no counter play."
For practical purposes for instance (Eg, competitive decks), most things a Mage does has no counter play too.
There is just about nothing a non-Mage can do to stop fireballs going where they want to. Same with Ice Block. Vast majority of decks cannot afford to run eater of secrets.
They can occasionally be played around but nothing to truly counter it.
This card I think is too bad to see real play. 2 big advantages of Dirty Rat is 1. Can react to whatever comes out. 2. It's a 2/6 for 2. Great stats. This is just a vanilla that rarely will actually make a difference and likely will hurt. Bad tempo card.
You also get an on-curve minion for early board control. Something Warlock was missing from their quadriplegic roster.
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I don't get what's all the fuss about. Sure, it's definitely something new, but i'm not quite sure who will care less for their card burned - highlander decks that basically have multiple different cards for same purpose, or regular decks, who run 2 of anyway. Once in a blue moon you're going to burn something valuable that will win you the game (reno for example) but that will be so rare it's a statistical error. So chill out, don't give us that cardinal breaking rule stuff like this is poker and you're making a living off it.