In Magic when you tutor a card from your deck you have to show it to your opponent before putting it into your hand. This allows the opponent to know you didn't cheat and pull something else out, while also letting them know what to work around. It guarantees your card, but also has the downside of giving your opponent information. If discovered cards were shown to your opponent before entering your hand, the game would be 100% fixed. You would know what to play around, but the opponent would still have the advantage of getting the random card. If you know they got a 5 mana flamestrike off a glyph, you can play around it, but yet they still have it. So it's a reasonable cost for getting your discovered card, in my opinion.
I have no problems with discover its the fact there is zero counterplay to it that is the problem. I, as an opponent of yours, having a great battle knowing you are a well rounded individual and make correct choices, see you play primordial glyph...and keep the card in hand. I have to assume its any mage card in the game and therefore can't play around anything other than the normal expected curve cards (in general).
Now lets say that HS showed me as an example you chose a 6 mana card, I could play around blizzard or meteor...., sure if you discovered it turn 2 and kept it in hand all game we could assume pyroblast but imagine these cards in wild after 5-6 years....even now its nuts.
I have a really hard time understanding this logic (and it's a very common one).
Glyph cost reduction aside (that could be a topic of discussion), let's say the RNG card came from a Babbling Book. My question is - how is a randomly generated Fireball/Polymorph/Frostbolt (not to mention any secret) "harder to play around" than one that already started in the opponent's deck/hand? Before the Book, that card in hand could've been anything (a minion, a spell, even a neutral card). After the book, you know for sure it is a Mage spell. It could be a good one (which to be frank is many/most of them), which means it was just as likely to be encountered as part of someone's deck anyway, and it doesn't affect your "playing around" anything in any way. Alternatively, it could be a crappy or mega-situational one people don't normally put into decks (e.g. Shatter), in which case you simply don't care and should be happy the opponent chose to handicap his deck with crap.
To me, this whole complaint translates to "I should be rewarded for knowing the meta decks", but assumes everyone else is running those exact meta decks. if the standard Secret Mage deck out there runs no Flamestrikes so you overextend against it, and I chose to add one and win because of it, would you complain that it's somehow unfair? That you couldn't have "played around it"? Probably not, right? Bottom line is, anyone could've played around it, but people understand that assuming that the opponent is running a "standard" deck is their own mistake. In some cases, they might even congratulate on the "deck tweak" and the unexpected card.
So, after a Babbling Book, why the heck do people have a problem processing the "unknown" spell? It's not like Kazakus' 252 possible spells (is that also a problem!?). It's a pool of what, 30 possibilities? Yes, now there is a random spell there in hand. You have more information than before, not less. Use it. HS is an incomplete information game, you always play around probabilities, not certainties.
Assuming that everyone has to play standard decks, and that "the skill" is only in knowing them and thus "playing around cards in them" is, well, a narrow view of what skill encompasses (I'm not going to say HS requires a lot of skill, but it is deeper than "avoid Flamestrike on 7", and the decision tree in a game only gets wider with Discovers being played on both sides).
This is not a correct way to approach to this problem.
Playing around FS is not a problem, even at Turn 5, yes you can add one to your deck, and I have to play around it too. Flamestrike is a common card.
Polymorph isn't a common card. I play a Tirion, I know my opponent doesn't have Polymorph, let say Freeze Mage, he plays Glpyh, then got one. How would I react to that shit. I can't play around all possibilities.
The real problem is, when you get things that you shouldn't have in your deck, like a third copy of a burn spell, or third and fourth Ice Blocks. How do you play around third Ice Block, tech in another Eater of Secrets? How to play around fifth board freeze against Freeze Mage?
You know how much burn your opp. can play in his deck. Yes, this is meta knowledge. Your opponent used all burn in his deck. Now you feel safe. Your opp. played a Glyph, and got whatever he needs to kill you. This is shit.
This is not like priest cards, they get things from your deck.
Heh, in a way, this just shows it's exactly the way to approach this.
I used Flamestrike as an example because it's a card that doesn't really see much play recently. It's been cut from many lists, and if anyone runs it, they will run only one copy. I'm glad you used the Polymorph example, as that is exactly what I do - I run a Polymorph in virtually every Mage deck I play. It has fallen out of favor recently, mostly due to prevalence of Aggro, but against anything else it almost always finds a good use. So, if you play Tirion against me and lose it to Polymorph, are you angry? Does that also classify as "How would I react to that shit. I can't play around all possibilities?" If I played a Glyph beforehand, at least you could expect it more I guess? (still, no more than 10% chance, which will become even less when next expansion hits). Glyph's main strength is the cost reduction, not the discover. A stable card (e.g. Volcanic potion or Poly, which together cover much more urgent needs and handle them better) would almost always be a better choice, were it not for the cost reduction. I do play Glyphs, but it's because of 5-mana Flamestrikes, 4-mana Blizzards, boosting Mana Wyrms and often getting an extra FB off Antonidas.
My point is, playing against a Mage, you should always play around every Mage card - but you should understand some are more likely than others. If I'm likely to pick a Poly from a Glyph, it is also possible I run it in my deck.
You talk of "used all burn" or "used 4 board freezes" as if that's a common scenario, and as if your playstyle should change much depending of whether that number is 3 or 4?
e.g. Assuming a Freeze Mage runs 2 Blizzards (not all do), if he already played 2 Freezes and a Blizzard, hasn't cast another Blizzard even if it was a very good spot to do so, and has 10 cards in his deck - without existence of Glyphs - you should play as if he has 10% chance to cast a Blizz next turn. With Glyphs in existence and in deck, he has additional 20-30% per Glyph to discover another Freeze or Blizzard. That's something you should account for. If you want to simplify, just play as if he has 5 and not 4 board freezes. If you don't, that's your mistake.
Of course, we could argue if 4 potential board Freezes per deck is fine but 5 board Freezes is too much, but that's another discussion.
p.s. Priest is much "worse" to play against (not that I complain). e.g. Shadow Visions gives a 3rd copy (breaking the same 2-of limit) but instead gives you something that is guaranteed to be useful (and in a well built deck, basically you can manipulate exactly what the choices will be). Getting stuff from opponent's deck (Drakonid Operative) means you now have to play against all priest cards AS WELL AS anything from your deck. Same with cards getting things from opponents class. How does "playing around" anything from two classes make it any better/easier than playing around anything from one class?
Ok, priest was a bad comparison.
My thoughts on Glyph stays the same (or Babbling Book). Its not strictly about 'What happens if your opponent has one more board freeze' or 'what if your opponent can stall with Ice Block one more turn'. Those are just a bunch of examples either I did or my opponent did. The problem is, playing around Glyph is like playing around your opponents top deck. You basically eliminate one of the most important characteristics of top players, being 'reading your opponents hand'. Glyph makes it hard to make a correct read. Again, if your opponent already played a Glyph, you may play around it. But in general you don't think like 'Oooh, my opp. maybe has a Glyph or Babbling Book, so he might play it this turn, and get a FS' or 'My opponent still had a Glyph in his deck, he can play it and get a Pyro, so 10 lives is not safe'. You just don't.
Also, about Poly, according to Hsreplay, its played in only 31.2% of the mage decks. However, if I ever play against you, I'll play around it :)
I was super lucky with Un'Goro, I opened 5 Legendaries in ~45 packs on release including Kalimos, Tarim, and Hunter quest (which was actually good for like 10 days after set release until everyone realized it sucked). But with WOTOG I opened exactly Anomalous and had to craft every other Legendary I wanted including both Yogg and Nzoth (I never opened a second WOTOG legendary in all my packs, or maybe I did and it was shit so I forgot about it). It feels really bad, man. At least they're guaranteeing us 2 Legendaries with KOTFT, a hero card for the single player stuff and a Legendary in the first 10 packs, but I hear you on F2P being basically gone. I'm an F2Per myself, I've put exactly zero dollars into the game and don't plan to do so, but if I had to start again today I probably wouldn't bother.
The main problem with Discover is that it could be literally anything. Oh, so you're a Secret Mage? Well, now you have a Pyroblast. Or you're a Murloc Paladin? Now you can have a Lay on Hands. The fact that it lets you break the 2-of rule and the class rule is also really annoying. Ok, I get it, it's Rogue's schtick that Rogue can steal other class's cards. Fine. But can we limit it to Rogue please and not give Priest access to Fireball or Primordial Glyph (Kabal Courier)? And I feel like having to play around 5 copies of Frostbolt in a game is not something I should be doing. Primordial Glyph as a card is also just so dumb as to not be worth talking about. It's functionally Demonic Tutor: "Get a card you want (or one that's close) and make it cost 2 less". Yeah, you don't always get Flamestrike, but sometimes you get Blizzard, Frost Nova, or Volcanic Potion which are similar. You almost never get 3 choices which are all absolutely garbage. Discover and random effects (e.g. Lyra, Babbling Book, Jeweled Macaw) really should be limited to your class, and cards that you don't already have 2 of in your deck, or else it's just like "Alright, I now have to play around the entire cardpool of Hearthstone for the rest of the game because it could be literally anything", which basically reduces into "play around nothing and pray they don't have it".
I wonder what would happen if Discover revealed the card. Would all Discover cards get "nerfed?" I don't even think there is a legendary discover card, maybe epics at best, but it would still be a huge influx of dust!
You can still be hyped and have a shit collection. I lack plenty of meta-defining cards for decks that I don't enjoy, such as Aya Blackpaw, Finja, the Flying Star and Patches the Pirate. You just gotta focus on one or two decks, three tops, or make random adjustments when your collection doesn't cut it. Whether you play for fun or "competitively", it's your choice, though, and sometimes one gets in the way of the other in terms of resources.
Sure, focus on those 1-3 decks... and then watch as, within a matter of weeks or a month, the meta shifts and your 1-3 decks are no longer capable of climbing the ladder.
I agree, the discover mechanic is overused and removes a large chunk of skill from the game. Why play skillfully with your 2 fireballs when you can just top deck a glyph and discover 1 with no drawback. Why run slow cards like poly when you can just discover a meteor? Discover is preventing bad players from being punished and worse yet, it is making those who use it feel skilled when they are just lucky.
Actually the meta is much better than the last two. One night in Karazhan's meta was midrange shamanstone and gadgetzan's meta consisted of Pirate Warrior and Jade Druid. Die by turn 4 or get swamped by endless giant jade golems. In that sense this meta is a hell of a lot better than the last two.
So I take it the people whining about the opponent benefitting from good RNG are conceding when the same RNG goes in their favor? Or did you just develop selective memory?
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Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
I'm not going to quote here because I'm dumb and don't know how to edit a quote to be shorter and it is getting absurdly long. But I just want to throw in one thing that your point is completely overlooking. Suffice it to say that this is in response to your outlook about the "I can't play around everything" complaint.
When I get wrecked by someone teching in Polymorph, I realize that they teched against my deck/archetype to make the matchup better and was at a disadvantage. I can respect that. They specifically made a decision about their deck and it paid off for them. The thing that upsets me about the Mage RNG cards in particular is that it is the exact opposite of making a decision. If Primordial Glyph, Babbling Book, Cabalists Tome, etc didn't exist then Mages would have to make a decision about what they want those slots to do. They would make their deck better against one archetype but make it worse against another. Instead they can just jam those cards in and hope that they get something situationally good against every archetype that they play against.
The two situations are not comparable. There is a major difference between "I can't play around everything and lost because the opponent made a decision to run something that I wasn't playing around" and "I can't play around everything and lost because of a dice roll".
Sure, focus on those 1-3 decks... and then watch as, within a matter of weeks or a month, the meta shifts and your 1-3 decks are no longer capable of climbing the ladder.
Decks evolve. Very rarely do they truly die. Some get weaker as new archetypes show up that do the job better, others get stronger thanks to new cards that get rid of their weaknesses. However, if you focus on a class I highly doubt you won't be able to play most of its decks, because core cards tend to be good in many occasions (Glyph, for example. Craft it for one mage deck, get it for all your mage decks).
Also, if those 3 decks all lose viability at the same time it is either the worst luck in the world, or the fact that they were almost exact clones of each other (such as different midrange Shaman/Hunter decks)
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
I'm not going to quote here because I'm dumb and don't know how to edit a quote to be shorter and it is getting absurdly long. But I just want to throw in one thing that your point is completely overlooking. Suffice it to say that this is in response to your outlook about the "I can't play around everything" complaint.
When I get wrecked by someone teching in Polymorph, I realize that they teched against my deck/archetype to make the matchup better and was at a disadvantage. I can respect that. They specifically made a decision about their deck and it paid off for them. The thing that upsets me about the Mage RNG cards in particular is that it is the exact opposite of making a decision. If Primordial Glyph, Babbling Book, Cabalists Tome, etc didn't exist then Mages would have to make a decision about what they want those slots to do. They would make their deck better against one archetype but make it worse against another. Instead they can just jam those cards in and hope that they get something situationally good against every archetype that they play against.
The two situations are not comparable. There is a major difference between "I can't play around everything and lost because the opponent made a decision to run something that I wasn't playing around" and "I can't play around everything and lost because of a dice roll".
I don't know how to edit quotes too, I'll just go with the whole entry.
If my opponent teched in a card, which normally does not see play, to improve a matchup and it worked, I respect that. It means that they understand that, the specific matchup is not in their favor, prepared themselves to beat it by teching, and won because of that.They know what they need, and they react to it accordingly. Even less common cards like Arcane Explosion can be tech choices, I am fine with it.
What I am not fine with it is that, they play Glyph, Tome, Book, Conjurer, whatever is it the turn I went for Tirion (it is just an example of high value minion). They normally don't have an answer for my move.They get Polymorph (I feel like whole discussion revolves around a bunch of specific cards right now) from it. They didn't put one in, there is no decision making at that point. They rolled a dice there, with your words, to get a card that they need immediately and got it. This is not preparing for the matchup, this is letting RNG handle that unfavourable situation on your behalf.
And yes, I am claiming this again 'There is no way you can play around every single mage spell your opponent possibly get from Glyph'
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In Magic when you tutor a card from your deck you have to show it to your opponent before putting it into your hand. This allows the opponent to know you didn't cheat and pull something else out, while also letting them know what to work around. It guarantees your card, but also has the downside of giving your opponent information. If discovered cards were shown to your opponent before entering your hand, the game would be 100% fixed. You would know what to play around, but the opponent would still have the advantage of getting the random card. If you know they got a 5 mana flamestrike off a glyph, you can play around it, but yet they still have it. So it's a reasonable cost for getting your discovered card, in my opinion.
It would be very nice if jeweled macaw was a "discover a beast"
Yeah, more or less this thread.
I was super lucky with Un'Goro, I opened 5 Legendaries in ~45 packs on release including Kalimos, Tarim, and Hunter quest (which was actually good for like 10 days after set release until everyone realized it sucked). But with WOTOG I opened exactly Anomalous and had to craft every other Legendary I wanted including both Yogg and Nzoth (I never opened a second WOTOG legendary in all my packs, or maybe I did and it was shit so I forgot about it). It feels really bad, man. At least they're guaranteeing us 2 Legendaries with KOTFT, a hero card for the single player stuff and a Legendary in the first 10 packs, but I hear you on F2P being basically gone. I'm an F2Per myself, I've put exactly zero dollars into the game and don't plan to do so, but if I had to start again today I probably wouldn't bother.
The main problem with Discover is that it could be literally anything. Oh, so you're a Secret Mage? Well, now you have a Pyroblast. Or you're a Murloc Paladin? Now you can have a Lay on Hands. The fact that it lets you break the 2-of rule and the class rule is also really annoying. Ok, I get it, it's Rogue's schtick that Rogue can steal other class's cards. Fine. But can we limit it to Rogue please and not give Priest access to Fireball or Primordial Glyph (Kabal Courier)? And I feel like having to play around 5 copies of Frostbolt in a game is not something I should be doing. Primordial Glyph as a card is also just so dumb as to not be worth talking about. It's functionally Demonic Tutor: "Get a card you want (or one that's close) and make it cost 2 less". Yeah, you don't always get Flamestrike, but sometimes you get Blizzard, Frost Nova, or Volcanic Potion which are similar. You almost never get 3 choices which are all absolutely garbage. Discover and random effects (e.g. Lyra, Babbling Book, Jeweled Macaw) really should be limited to your class, and cards that you don't already have 2 of in your deck, or else it's just like "Alright, I now have to play around the entire cardpool of Hearthstone for the rest of the game because it could be literally anything", which basically reduces into "play around nothing and pray they don't have it".
Let me put it this way: HS is 90 rng and 10 skill.
I wonder what would happen if Discover revealed the card. Would all Discover cards get "nerfed?" I don't even think there is a legendary discover card, maybe epics at best, but it would still be a huge influx of dust!
I agree, the discover mechanic is overused and removes a large chunk of skill from the game. Why play skillfully with your 2 fireballs when you can just top deck a glyph and discover 1 with no drawback. Why run slow cards like poly when you can just discover a meteor? Discover is preventing bad players from being punished and worse yet, it is making those who use it feel skilled when they are just lucky.
Actually the meta is much better than the last two. One night in Karazhan's meta was midrange shamanstone and gadgetzan's meta consisted of Pirate Warrior and Jade Druid. Die by turn 4 or get swamped by endless giant jade golems. In that sense this meta is a hell of a lot better than the last two.
I am hyped for the next expansion.
So I take it the people whining about the opponent benefitting from good RNG are conceding when the same RNG goes in their favor? Or did you just develop selective memory?
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
I'm not going to quote here because I'm dumb and don't know how to edit a quote to be shorter and it is getting absurdly long. But I just want to throw in one thing that your point is completely overlooking. Suffice it to say that this is in response to your outlook about the "I can't play around everything" complaint.
When I get wrecked by someone teching in Polymorph, I realize that they teched against my deck/archetype to make the matchup better and was at a disadvantage. I can respect that. They specifically made a decision about their deck and it paid off for them. The thing that upsets me about the Mage RNG cards in particular is that it is the exact opposite of making a decision. If Primordial Glyph, Babbling Book, Cabalists Tome, etc didn't exist then Mages would have to make a decision about what they want those slots to do. They would make their deck better against one archetype but make it worse against another. Instead they can just jam those cards in and hope that they get something situationally good against every archetype that they play against.
The two situations are not comparable. There is a major difference between "I can't play around everything and lost because the opponent made a decision to run something that I wasn't playing around" and "I can't play around everything and lost because of a dice roll".
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished