In mean streets, jade druid absolutely shit on any classic control deck, and basically made them unplayable. Now we have quest rogue and taunt warrior which absolutely wreck any control deck.
Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
I have to agree with you, it does seem like with every set classic control decks just get worse and worse. Hopefully the next expansion to come out will slow the meta down some.
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I think I might have hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia.
It's difficult to know what you mean since many people consider jade druid and taunt warrior a type of control deck. This is why I think there are references to "classic control" instead of just control.
So, are you upset that you can't have a successful deck built around only a small number of win conditions with a ton of spot removal and board sweepers? Control Paladin and Mage seem pretty solid right now. Are you upset that control warrior and control priest are weak? Control warrior is weak because the designers are pushing the class into new styles so the game is not stale and priest has priest issues. Control shaman is also weak and handlock is dead, but those are just class and meta issues.
There does seem to be a trend in hearthstone design prefer minion based control decks rather than spell based. In other words, in hearthstone control decks use minions to gain card advantage and tempo swings rather than just spamming board clears. I suspect this is one way they want to make the game "fun and interactive". Personally I prefer that style od design so I am satisfied. It can be frustrating, admittedly, to see druid win all fatigue matchups with a single jade idol, but overall I like minion based control on control games.
The thing I totally disagree with is the ever present complaint that aggro is too oppressive and the game needs to slow down. Basically nobody plays aggro anymore. Pirate warrior and quest rogue are certainly fast, but not nearly as a oppressive or difficult to counter as old school face hunter or even zoo warlock. If anything, blizzard has shown massive aggro hate over the last few cycles, much more than any hate of control. I don't want the game to perpetually consist of long grinding fatigue matchups, but it seems like that's what it would take to get people to stop complaining about aggro decks.
Sorry you don't get to dominate with the exact deck you prefer to play, whatever that is.
I have to agree with you, it does seem like with every set classic control decks just get worse and worse. Hopefully the next expansion to come out will slow the meta down some.
Well yeah, Classic Control is getting worse and worse because they've giving other Control lists ways to actually finish the game. Like right now you've got Control variants of Mage/Paladin/Warrior/Shaman/Priest who are all perfectly viable, it's just that they all have ways to kill you in the late game... which is what I'd argue is a better direction to have taken things in the first place.
I'd be okay with a slightly slower meta, but unfortunately when it gets too much slower we end up with Karazhan. A lack of viable Aggro is not a direction I'd like to see them go again.
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I think the OP means "attrition style control" by "classic control". These are decks that have no win condition other than answering every single one of the opponents' cards. Essentially old control priest and control warrior. Reviving this archtype is not as simple as releasing good control tools because infinite value decks now exist in the game. Blizzard continued to push these kinds of decks in UnGoro despite a lot of the community reacting negatively to the first iteration (Jade druid)
I don't play shadowverse but I hear from a friend that this is the meta the devs there designed intentionally to prevent games from running too long. I think hearthstone is heading in this direction, also by design choice. It makes me sad because these are some of my favorite decks in the game, but what can ya do?
I have to agree with you, it does seem like with every set classic control decks just get worse and worse. Hopefully the next expansion to come out will slow the meta down some.
True, but we've been hoping the meta will slow down for awhile now and it never really has.
Blizzard remove any decent neutral healing, the majority of mass removal are expensive (6 manas? Useless, aggro already win the game in this stage of the game) and keep releasing abominations like Patches, then, yes, Blizzard hates control decks very much.
Blizzard remove any decent neutral healing, the majority of mass removal are expensive (6 manas? Useless, aggro already win the game in this stage of the game) and keep releasing abominations like Patches, then, yes, Blizzard hates control decks very much.
Control decks beat aggro decks, the issue is the bogus stuff like jades and quest rogue
In mean streets, jade druid absolutely shit on any classic control deck, and basically made them unplayable. Now we have quest rogue and taunt warrior which absolutely wreck any control deck.
Taunt warrior is a control deck. And it does not wreck control priest, at least not when i'm the priest. Quest rogue is a really stupid deck but i manage to beat it most of the time with my taunt warrior.
Blizzard remove any decent neutral healing, the majority of mass removal are expensive (6 manas? Useless, aggro already win the game in this stage of the game) and keep releasing abominations like Patches, then, yes, Blizzard hates control decks very much.
Control decks beat aggro decks, the issue is the bogus stuff like jades and quest rogue
Not so easy, aggro decks receive a lot of broken cards and control barely any playable card.
See Wild as example, you play with hundreds of aggro decks for each control, pirate warrior, egg druid, etc...
It makes me sad because these are some of my favorite decks in the game, but what can ya do?
For the most part you could still play exactly those decks, you just have exceptionally poor matchups nowadays on Standard ladder. As someone who has played a lot of fatigue-centric builds we've always had infinite value cock-blocking that kind of strategy, Paladin's infinite 1/1s and Jaraxxus' infinite 6/6s come to mind. For decks that simply wouldn't allow you to durdle for 20+ turns we had Freeze Mage that simply strung together OTKs and Anyfin that could eat through a massive amount of armor (so not even Control Warrior was safe). Combo Druid was insanely good at simply just beating down Control lists of all sorts. Miracle and Oil been dismantling slower lists for years, and Rogue is generally able to build out lists that can capitalize on the idea of gathering specific pieces with enough time.
I think the main difference is not that this is a new design goal, it's that no one really had the resources we do nowadays to pinpoint winrates or something as easy to grasp as Jade Idol's ability to buffer fatigue indefinitely. We knew Control Warrior was massively unfavored for a long time against Combo Druid, but it's not like we could point at something like Vicious Syndicate for reasonably stable data about it. 60/40 was what most people had that matchup pegged at, which is where Jade Druid ended up against most Control Decks in MSoG; the numbers match, the effect matches (have you ever tried to fatigue out a Combo Druid? it's hilarious ineffective), but the narrative is different because people finally got something they could digest on a wide scale. This isn't me calling the entire community or the people who dislike Jade Idol or Quest Rogue a bunch of dummies, but I do think that a couple of factors at least have contributed to a new awareness of the design.
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I read a suggestion on another thread that made a lot of sense to me: find a way to distribute greater rewards for longer games.
If you want to just grind away with a fast aggressive deck - have at it. But for those players who prefer longer games and more of a control playstyle, the payoff for a victory should be proportional to the the time invested.
Not sure exactly how this would play out - it wouldn't necessarily need to be a means to rank faster, but could pay dividends in terms of dust or gold.
Apparently there is system like this in Starcraft.
I think Blizzard has tried to bring down fatigue-based decks. I thinks that's great - nothing was worse than playing against Control Warrior, followed by Control Priest. Control Warrior was just horribly unfun to play against - you're punished for playing minions, you're punished for not playing minions.
However, Quest Rogue and Jade Idol are stupid. Quest Rogue instantly defeats any slow deck regardless of whether it's a true Control Deck. Jade Idol also punishes any slow deck. Quest Rogue encourages agro.
It should be possible to play a slower deck without having to fear instant losses.
I read a suggestion on another thread that made a lot of sense to me: find a way to distribute greater rewards for longer games, so that the victory is proportional to the time invested.
[...]
As much as I would sympathize with Control aficionados, this suggestion seems totally off the mark, sorry. Sounds to me like if in chess tournaments a bigger reward was given to those who play Ruy Lopez, compared to those who play Sicilian. Which would be ludicrous, ofc.
In mean streets, jade druid absolutely shit on any classic control deck, and basically made them unplayable. Now we have quest rogue and taunt warrior which absolutely wreck any control deck.
Taunt warrior is a control deck. And it does not wreck control priest, at least not when i'm the priest. Quest rogue is a really stupid deck but i manage to beat it most of the time with my taunt warrior.
Honestly, standard taunt warrior with his "i have 1 attack on your turn" minions, rats, alley armorsmiths looks more like a toothless excuse for a control deck. The game plan is stalling till you complete the quest then pray to rngesus for a good brawl and for DIE, INSECT to wreck the opponent's face fast enough.
There is still control pally tho, and some priest decks that could be considered control, even somewhat-viable control warrior.
As for jade druid and quest rogue, they are more like exploits of certain (rather poorly designed if you ask me) mechanics.
In mean streets, jade druid absolutely shit on any classic control deck, and basically made them unplayable. Now we have quest rogue and taunt warrior which absolutely wreck any control deck.
Taunt warrior is a control deck. And it does not wreck control priest, at least not when i'm the priest. Quest rogue is a really stupid deck but i manage to beat it most of the time with my taunt warrior.
Taunt warrior's a dumbed down "control" deck. the biggest "control" element of it is the fact that they play a bunch of taunt minions. And once they finish the quest it's a retarded coin flip game.
There seems to be a clear intention that they want to force control decks to eventually do something proactive to win the game. That's not a bad thing. They've just gone about it in a crummy way - the Jade mechanic and Quest Rogue being so polarizing are worse atrocities than any fatigue deck. And a lot of the control cards have become the worst culprits of high variance RNG - when you lose a 30 minute control mirror because someone got a second Elise and then ripped out King Mosh to clear the board before chaining elementals your first instinct is that you're going to screw the next person playing a similar deck and just play somthing that runs them over.
Thijs had freeze mage in top 10 for his whole stream yesterday, almost hitting rank 1. In tier 1 and 2 there are multiple control decks and control mage might be the best deck in the game right now. Taunt warrior is also a control deck. What the fuck is this dude smoking.
Control Paladin. Control Warrior. Control Mage. All insanely good right now.
If you play Standard the best available build for each class is going to vary depending on what cards are in the format. For example, when Old Gods came out C'Thun Druid was the best style of Druid deck. When Jade Idol came out in Mean Streets, Jade Druid was the best form of Druid. In between Beast Druid and Egg Druid had some time to shine as well. Not every class is going to have a viable control build at all times. So if you are lamenting not being able to play Control Warrior or whatever other control deck isn't viable then play Wild or just wait until a new set comes out that might shake things up for your class.
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In mean streets, jade druid absolutely shit on any classic control deck, and basically made them unplayable. Now we have quest rogue and taunt warrior which absolutely wreck any control deck.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
teh answer is no
Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
I have to agree with you, it does seem like with every set classic control decks just get worse and worse. Hopefully the next expansion to come out will slow the meta down some.
I think I might have hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia.
It's difficult to know what you mean since many people consider jade druid and taunt warrior a type of control deck. This is why I think there are references to "classic control" instead of just control.
So, are you upset that you can't have a successful deck built around only a small number of win conditions with a ton of spot removal and board sweepers? Control Paladin and Mage seem pretty solid right now. Are you upset that control warrior and control priest are weak? Control warrior is weak because the designers are pushing the class into new styles so the game is not stale and priest has priest issues. Control shaman is also weak and handlock is dead, but those are just class and meta issues.
There does seem to be a trend in hearthstone design prefer minion based control decks rather than spell based. In other words, in hearthstone control decks use minions to gain card advantage and tempo swings rather than just spamming board clears. I suspect this is one way they want to make the game "fun and interactive". Personally I prefer that style od design so I am satisfied. It can be frustrating, admittedly, to see druid win all fatigue matchups with a single jade idol, but overall I like minion based control on control games.
The thing I totally disagree with is the ever present complaint that aggro is too oppressive and the game needs to slow down. Basically nobody plays aggro anymore. Pirate warrior and quest rogue are certainly fast, but not nearly as a oppressive or difficult to counter as old school face hunter or even zoo warlock. If anything, blizzard has shown massive aggro hate over the last few cycles, much more than any hate of control. I don't want the game to perpetually consist of long grinding fatigue matchups, but it seems like that's what it would take to get people to stop complaining about aggro decks.
Sorry you don't get to dominate with the exact deck you prefer to play, whatever that is.
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
I think the OP means "attrition style control" by "classic control". These are decks that have no win condition other than answering every single one of the opponents' cards. Essentially old control priest and control warrior. Reviving this archtype is not as simple as releasing good control tools because infinite value decks now exist in the game. Blizzard continued to push these kinds of decks in UnGoro despite a lot of the community reacting negatively to the first iteration (Jade druid)
I don't play shadowverse but I hear from a friend that this is the meta the devs there designed intentionally to prevent games from running too long. I think hearthstone is heading in this direction, also by design choice. It makes me sad because these are some of my favorite decks in the game, but what can ya do?
Legend with : S65 Freeze Mage, S57 Maly Gonk Druid, S57 "Okay" Shaman, S53 Boom-zooka Hunter, S53 Maly Tog Druid, S52 Wild Tog Druid ft.Blingtron, S50 Quest Rogue, S49 Dead Man's Warrior, S41 Wild Clown Fiesta Druid, S41 Hadronox Jade Druid, S40 Wild OTK Dragon Druid, S35 SMOrc Shaman, S33 Jade Druid, S22 Control Priest, S19 Control Priest
Bring back the Sorry emote!
Blizzard remove any decent neutral healing, the majority of mass removal are expensive (6 manas? Useless, aggro already win the game in this stage of the game) and keep releasing abominations like Patches, then, yes, Blizzard hates control decks very much.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
I read a suggestion on another thread that made a lot of sense to me: find a way to distribute greater rewards for longer games.
If you want to just grind away with a fast aggressive deck - have at it. But for those players who prefer longer games and more of a control playstyle, the payoff for a victory should be proportional to the the time invested.
Not sure exactly how this would play out - it wouldn't necessarily need to be a means to rank faster, but could pay dividends in terms of dust or gold.
Apparently there is system like this in Starcraft.
I think Blizzard has tried to bring down fatigue-based decks. I thinks that's great - nothing was worse than playing against Control Warrior, followed by Control Priest. Control Warrior was just horribly unfun to play against - you're punished for playing minions, you're punished for not playing minions.
However, Quest Rogue and Jade Idol are stupid. Quest Rogue instantly defeats any slow deck regardless of whether it's a true Control Deck. Jade Idol also punishes any slow deck. Quest Rogue encourages agro.
It should be possible to play a slower deck without having to fear instant losses.
As much as I would sympathize with Control aficionados, this suggestion seems totally off the mark, sorry. Sounds to me like if in chess tournaments a bigger reward was given to those who play Ruy Lopez, compared to those who play Sicilian. Which would be ludicrous, ofc.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
There seems to be a clear intention that they want to force control decks to eventually do something proactive to win the game. That's not a bad thing. They've just gone about it in a crummy way - the Jade mechanic and Quest Rogue being so polarizing are worse atrocities than any fatigue deck. And a lot of the control cards have become the worst culprits of high variance RNG - when you lose a 30 minute control mirror because someone got a second Elise and then ripped out King Mosh to clear the board before chaining elementals your first instinct is that you're going to screw the next person playing a similar deck and just play somthing that runs them over.
CCGing since '98.
Wow this thread is unbelievably stupid.
Thijs had freeze mage in top 10 for his whole stream yesterday, almost hitting rank 1. In tier 1 and 2 there are multiple control decks and control mage might be the best deck in the game right now. Taunt warrior is also a control deck. What the fuck is this dude smoking.
Control Paladin. Control Warrior. Control Mage. All insanely good right now.
If you play Standard the best available build for each class is going to vary depending on what cards are in the format. For example, when Old Gods came out C'Thun Druid was the best style of Druid deck. When Jade Idol came out in Mean Streets, Jade Druid was the best form of Druid. In between Beast Druid and Egg Druid had some time to shine as well. Not every class is going to have a viable control build at all times. So if you are lamenting not being able to play Control Warrior or whatever other control deck isn't viable then play Wild or just wait until a new set comes out that might shake things up for your class.