@Jarikku; that's all I was getting at with Kripp's pack opening, it's a sample size that's big enough that it smooths out the variance that comes alongside randomized packs. Not so much that it's normal for anyone to be opening that many packs at all, nor am I arguing people don't run into a string of bad luck (MSoG for me was a case of multiple pity timers for instance). I really wasn't being facetious either, if you do have a better data set than that to point to the average droprate of Legendaries I'm open to hearing about it because it's never a bad thing to have more data.
I'm also only contesting OPs point because it's running on estimations that assume that a) you're hitting the high end of a droprate, b) ignoring the dust you're accruing from extra commons/rares/epics after a certain point, and c) trying to collect the entire set every time a new expansion drops. In a later post they did change their estimate to ~$880 under the assumption it was 1:20 packs if I recall, but the other two points are still pretty debatable. When you're trying to break something down by the numbers, facts matter.
I don't however disagree if people feel that they aren't getting their money's worth in entertainment from the game there's nothing wrong with abstaining from making any purchases or simply switching games. It doesn't mean it's going to have a large/immediate impact, but if it becomes a large trend then the idea of voting with your wallet would likely cause a shift in their model. If it doesn't happen on a large scale though, people who are opting not to pay real money should be content with the fact they're making the right decision for them and realizing that it's not an opinion other people share on the topic of pack prices. In my case ~$100 is something I'm okay with paying for my primary card game and I feel like I've never really struggled to build most of the current meta decks or explore my own janky builds, and having that upped to $300 a year isn't the end of the world.
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Try playing mtg. You pretty much have to buy every card individually to make a competitive deck, unless you plan on opening hundreds of packs. If you spend 100 bucks a couple times on expansions you can essentially play hs for free after that. It's easy to accumulate 10k+ gold in between expansions, allowing you to buy 100 packs for $0.
Im very much not a F2P player, but I have bought all the adventures plus the promotional $50 bundle at the beginning of each packs expansion. I think i spend about $150/year and I feel like I have plenty of cards and have enough dust to craft any top tier deck. This game is cheap. If you think MTGO is cheaper, then go play that instead. I prefer MTG, but its so expensive I had to quit.
well by now it seems quite obvious, that OP got reaaaally unlucky when opening packs and thus disguised his salt by doing some calculations that are pretty far off reality.
the last few comments i read pretty much show what i have experienced so far. i usually open around 150 packs for each expansion (preorder + 40 packs + saved gold) which, counting in around 5-6k dust from duplicates, usually leaves me with all common&rares, most relevant epics and around half of the legendaries.
i usually wait a few weeks to decide which legs i want to spend my dust on and so far i have done quite well in archieving my goal of playing most decks i'm interested in without missing key cards.
preorder + 40 packs is around 100€ per expansion. with 3 expansions a year that's 25€ per month. for me that definitely is a reasonable amount of money to spend on a game. 100€ at once may sound a lot but under 30€/month? thats somewhere between 1 to 4 hours of work, depending on what you earn...
@Jarikku; that's all I was getting at with Kripp's pack opening, it's a sample size that's big enough that it smooths out the variance that comes alongside randomized packs. Not so much that it's normal for anyone to be opening that many packs at all, nor am I arguing people don't run into a string of bad luck (MSoG for me was a case of multiple pity timers for instance). I really wasn't being facetious either, if you do have a better data set than that to point to the average droprate of Legendaries I'm open to hearing about it because it's never a bad thing to have more data.
I'm also only contesting OPs point because it's running on estimations that assume that a) you're hitting the high end of a droprate, b) ignoring the dust you're accruing from extra commons/rares/epics after a certain point, and c) trying to collect the entire set every time a new expansion drops. In a later post they did change their estimate to ~$880 under the assumption it was 1:20 packs if I recall, but the other two points are still pretty debatable. When you're trying to break something down by the numbers, facts matter.
I don't however disagree if people feel that they aren't getting their money's worth in entertainment from the game there's nothing wrong with abstaining from making any purchases or simply switching games. It doesn't mean it's going to have a large/immediate impact, but if it becomes a large trend then the idea of voting with your wallet would likely cause a shift in their model. If it doesn't happen on a large scale though, people who are opting not to pay real money should be content with the fact they're making the right decision for them and realizing that it's not an opinion other people share on the topic of pack prices. In my case ~$100 is something I'm okay with paying for my primary card game and I feel like I've never really struggled to build most of the current meta decks or explore my own janky builds, and having that upped to $300 a year isn't the end of the world.
I agree with you completely.
I have my reason, which are now known and I don't think I'm alone. Will my decision influence Blizzard, not in a million years. If HS was the only game i wanted to play and support, I'd have no problem dumping hundreds per year in, I've been doing it till now.
I think we're on the same page Tze, thank you for your thoughtful and friendly responses. People often get so bent out of shape on the webs. Cheers!
Total F2P player here never spent a dime on this game. I dust past expansion cards to pay for new expansion cards, grind the arena, buy packs with quest and daily golds and craft more cards with monthly rewards.
With the above I can make it to rank 5 above with 2 or 3 tier 1 constructed decks and if Im bored with those decks then I grind the arena.
Cool. Now lets do the comparison as to how many AAA computer games you could get for the price of keeping up with the yearly expansions. We would probably need a comparison with and without Steam sales.
Cool. Now lets do the comparison as to how many AAA computer games you could get for the price of keeping up with the yearly expansions. We would probably need a comparison with and without Steam sales.
If you want AAA computer game pricing models, go play AAA computer games. God knows I got an immense amount of mileage out of something like Skyrim, Diablo III, and Rocket League, so it's not like I would blame anyone for doing that because they simply are cheaper to keep up with.
Or, find me a collectible card game that structures their price alongside that of a AAA card game; I can't think of any of them that have a b2p model like that, which is why short of simply saying card games are too expensive for your tastes to collect you're kind of shit out of luck in that discussion.
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If you open a large enough number of packs the expected dust value of each pack is ~90, which averages out at enough dust to craft a Legendary every 17-18 packs opened, regardless of dupes. That's quite significant number of craftable Legendaries when you open 100+ packs. OPs analysis is flawed.
Here's the biggest pitfall that I forgot to point out:
youre comparing two completely separate game models. One is digital, the other is physical. One requires no money to start, while the other does. One is globally accessible, while the other isn't.
Its kind of like trying to compare a fast food place to a high class restaurant. Or comparing an orange to an apple, they're both fruit yet they're eaten differently.
I think you should make the same thread again, except compare hearthstone to other f2p digital card games, like duelyst or gwen (it's f2p right?) anyways, that's how you don't get threads like these heh
I have been playing HS on and off since WoG, liitle bit before it hit acctually, and since my hobby is computer games ( I rather spend hundreds of moneys, in my case Brazilian REais which go for a ratio of arund 3.2:1 with the Dollar, on this than on drinks at bars, buying brand colthes or whatever, only thing that I spend money happily other than games is to eat at good places :D), from my experience I get 1 legendary every 20 packs or so, I have bought quite a few 60 packs and never, I mean never I had less than 3 legendaries per 60 packs. I have had 60 packs that gave me 5 legendaries! In the end RNG will be RNG and yes some people will be on the unlucky side of the stick.
Is HS a cheap game to keep up with if you don't have time to grind quests etc..? Not at all!! Is it forbbidingly so? Also not at all, the way i usually reason around these things is: how much money do i invest annually in the game? Let's divide that by 12, usually the amount is less than I would spend going out for just one weekend!! So imho the cost/fun time ratio for me is still a good one.
I can understand that many do not work or cannot afford to spend money on a game, but that is just how things are, you can deffinetly pçay for free, probably will have a disatvantage specially if you don't have the time to grind gold, but it is still possible to play and have fun.
Sorry for the wall of text, I got carried away mid post :D
Here's the biggest pitfall that I forgot to point out:
youre comparing two completely separate game models. One is digital, the other is physical. One requires no money to start, while the other does. One is globally accessible, while the other isn't.
Its kind of like trying to compare a fast food place to a high class restaurant. Or comparing an orange to an apple, they're both fruit yet they're eaten differently.
I think you should make the same thread again, except compare hearthstone to other f2p digital card games, like duelyst or gwen (it's f2p right?) anyways, that's how you don't get threads like these heh
While I agree with you that the different models mess with things quite a bit, it's actually pretty interesting to see the cost of collecting an entire set in each of the card games. A lot of people like me don't play Magic because it was more expensive when we started Hearthstone, so seeing the costs are about in line for a full collection is kind of crazy (like Aether Revolt is still cheaper than Un'Goro, even at ~$400). The last couple of sets haven't had very expensive chase Mythics either so the cost per deck is actually a little cheaper as far as I'm aware, at least in Standard.
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OP: You seem to miss the major point that you can make legendaries with dust.
Didn't miss that point at all. On MTGO you can trade cards with other people, and also purchase specific cards. Both of which you can't do in Hearthstone. So I would say that balances things out, or gives the edge to Magic in terms of affordability.
The data of the Link is slightly contradictory since they say you need to open on average 18 packs to get a leg, but they also state that you get only 4.5 legendaries when you open 100 packs (expected would be 5.5 legendaries if the former was true). But for the sake of your calculation, I'd take 20 (also easier to calculate with).
At 20 packs you're stlll looking at $880 for each set, meaning it costs you $2600 / year to play hearthstone with all the cards. An embarrassing number really. I don't really buy that average though; not from this last expansion anyways. The number also doesn't take into account getting all the epics, which are often an even bigger issues than the legendaries due to being 2-ofs.
the hell are you talking about? I spent £150 + £35 for preorder and 7500 gold and I have every card from this expansion... your calculations are so wrong and miss out on so many factors that I don't even know where to begin correcting you...
OP: You seem to miss the major point that you can make legendaries with dust.
Didn't miss that point at all. On MTGO you can trade cards with other people, and also purchase specific cards. Both of which you can't do in Hearthstone. So I would say that balances things out, or gives the edge to Magic in terms of affordability.
If you're trading cards with other people, you're likely buying packs (how often do you purchase a playset to trade it?). Buying packs in Magic is kind of like buying lottery tickets hoping to get rich. You also have to be trading, get this, valuable cards to people if you want other valuable cards. The dust system doesn't care about how competitive your Legendary is, if you want 400 dust you get 400 dust; if you want a specific Legendary you spend 1600 dust and move on with your life.
Did you read the link someone posted a page or so back? It had more accurate math on the subject, and it does make Magic slightly more affordable if you're looking purely from spending cash (assuming you want the entire set for whatever reason) but only by ~$90 and I believe that's the high end AND assuming you're using one of the most inefficient methods to purchase packs. Their math (and I think was Ryan_Sechrets was getting at) was a lot lower simply because they factored in that you would be using the dust from duplicates to craft everything you were missing. I don't believe it factors in something like a decent amount of gold being saved up either.
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I don't quite have all of the cards, but I could very easily make the push and get them.
If I did, my total cash expenditure for un'goro would be far, far less than $800, Canadian or U.S.
The OP has no idea what he's talking about and should probably actually try to do it before posting such wildly inaccurate numbers.
(Note that I always do my quests, throw back the low-yield quests, and win enough games to get multiple 10-gold bonuses per day, but I don't play a lot of Arena. The dust you get from monthly rewards is also not trivial, especially at or near the top of the ladder.)
I like tossing around this idea as much as others do, but fact is Magic is more expensive to be competitively viable. That being said, I vastly prefer Magic the Gathering over Hearthstone. Drafting is much more fun, and gives a much better sense of community. Additionally, Magic seems much more willing to try different mechanics, whereas Hearthstone seems to add just 3 or so every xpac. However, Magic is way more expensive. Average cost of competitive decks is higher, and the power level is higher. Additionally, the power level scale up exponentially the older the format, whereas Wild is still playable with only a few Wild cards.
Both games have their economic merits. I agree, Blizzard IS fucking us, but there are better ways to try and point that out than comparing to Magic.
The price to get every legendary out of a pack is a pretty silly metric. Not every legendary is even competitive, for one thing. For another, completing a set is not even close to necessary to compete on ladder. You've set an arbitrary goal for yourself (and mis-calculated the amount of dust you'll get from duplicates, which is substantial) that only a very small percentage of the user base shares.
Additionally, most of us on the forums have been playing for some time, and we don't go into every expansion in a vacuum. I only spent $90 (US) on Un'Goro packs, and with the bit of dust I saved up in the last month, plus the dust from the Hall of Fame rotation, I have 10 legendaries (4 from packs, 6 crafted). I'm already at 199 of 247 cards in the expansion. And that's without saving ANY gold, which I always spend on Arena.
Seems quite reasonable to me - all it requires is a little bit of planning for the decks you're actually going to play.
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@Jarikku; that's all I was getting at with Kripp's pack opening, it's a sample size that's big enough that it smooths out the variance that comes alongside randomized packs. Not so much that it's normal for anyone to be opening that many packs at all, nor am I arguing people don't run into a string of bad luck (MSoG for me was a case of multiple pity timers for instance). I really wasn't being facetious either, if you do have a better data set than that to point to the average droprate of Legendaries I'm open to hearing about it because it's never a bad thing to have more data.
I'm also only contesting OPs point because it's running on estimations that assume that a) you're hitting the high end of a droprate, b) ignoring the dust you're accruing from extra commons/rares/epics after a certain point, and c) trying to collect the entire set every time a new expansion drops. In a later post they did change their estimate to ~$880 under the assumption it was 1:20 packs if I recall, but the other two points are still pretty debatable. When you're trying to break something down by the numbers, facts matter.
I don't however disagree if people feel that they aren't getting their money's worth in entertainment from the game there's nothing wrong with abstaining from making any purchases or simply switching games. It doesn't mean it's going to have a large/immediate impact, but if it becomes a large trend then the idea of voting with your wallet would likely cause a shift in their model. If it doesn't happen on a large scale though, people who are opting not to pay real money should be content with the fact they're making the right decision for them and realizing that it's not an opinion other people share on the topic of pack prices. In my case ~$100 is something I'm okay with paying for my primary card game and I feel like I've never really struggled to build most of the current meta decks or explore my own janky builds, and having that upped to $300 a year isn't the end of the world.
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
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Try playing mtg. You pretty much have to buy every card individually to make a competitive deck, unless you plan on opening hundreds of packs. If you spend 100 bucks a couple times on expansions you can essentially play hs for free after that. It's easy to accumulate 10k+ gold in between expansions, allowing you to buy 100 packs for $0.
I was hoping this thread would have some good numbers behind it but the OP get's even the basic legendary drop rates wrong... stopped reading.
Sigh
Im very much not a F2P player, but I have bought all the adventures plus the promotional $50 bundle at the beginning of each packs expansion. I think i spend about $150/year and I feel like I have plenty of cards and have enough dust to craft any top tier deck. This game is cheap. If you think MTGO is cheaper, then go play that instead. I prefer MTG, but its so expensive I had to quit.
well by now it seems quite obvious, that OP got reaaaally unlucky when opening packs and thus disguised his salt by doing some calculations that are pretty far off reality.
the last few comments i read pretty much show what i have experienced so far. i usually open around 150 packs for each expansion (preorder + 40 packs + saved gold) which, counting in around 5-6k dust from duplicates, usually leaves me with all common&rares, most relevant epics and around half of the legendaries.
i usually wait a few weeks to decide which legs i want to spend my dust on and so far i have done quite well in archieving my goal of playing most decks i'm interested in without missing key cards.
preorder + 40 packs is around 100€ per expansion. with 3 expansions a year that's 25€ per month. for me that definitely is a reasonable amount of money to spend on a game. 100€ at once may sound a lot but under 30€/month? thats somewhere between 1 to 4 hours of work, depending on what you earn...
Total F2P player here never spent a dime on this game. I dust past expansion cards to pay for new expansion cards, grind the arena, buy packs with quest and daily golds and craft more cards with monthly rewards.
With the above I can make it to rank 5 above with 2 or 3 tier 1 constructed decks and if Im bored with those decks then I grind the arena.
Cool. Now lets do the comparison as to how many AAA computer games you could get for the price of keeping up with the yearly expansions. We would probably need a comparison with and without Steam sales.
You are not prepared!
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
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If you open a large enough number of packs the expected dust value of each pack is ~90, which averages out at enough dust to craft a Legendary every 17-18 packs opened, regardless of dupes. That's quite significant number of craftable Legendaries when you open 100+ packs. OPs analysis is flawed.
Here's the biggest pitfall that I forgot to point out:
youre comparing two completely separate game models. One is digital, the other is physical. One requires no money to start, while the other does. One is globally accessible, while the other isn't.
Its kind of like trying to compare a fast food place to a high class restaurant. Or comparing an orange to an apple, they're both fruit yet they're eaten differently.
I think you should make the same thread again, except compare hearthstone to other f2p digital card games, like duelyst or gwen (it's f2p right?) anyways, that's how you don't get threads like these heh
If you're happy and you know it... well that's good :)
I will contribute to the statistics :P.
I have been playing HS on and off since WoG, liitle bit before it hit acctually, and since my hobby is computer games ( I rather spend hundreds of moneys, in my case Brazilian REais which go for a ratio of arund 3.2:1 with the Dollar, on this than on drinks at bars, buying brand colthes or whatever, only thing that I spend money happily other than games is to eat at good places :D), from my experience I get 1 legendary every 20 packs or so, I have bought quite a few 60 packs and never, I mean never I had less than 3 legendaries per 60 packs. I have had 60 packs that gave me 5 legendaries! In the end RNG will be RNG and yes some people will be on the unlucky side of the stick.
Is HS a cheap game to keep up with if you don't have time to grind quests etc..? Not at all!! Is it forbbidingly so? Also not at all, the way i usually reason around these things is: how much money do i invest annually in the game? Let's divide that by 12, usually the amount is less than I would spend going out for just one weekend!! So imho the cost/fun time ratio for me is still a good one.
I can understand that many do not work or cannot afford to spend money on a game, but that is just how things are, you can deffinetly pçay for free, probably will have a disatvantage specially if you don't have the time to grind gold, but it is still possible to play and have fun.
Sorry for the wall of text, I got carried away mid post :D
Cheers,
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
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Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
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OP: You seem to miss the major point that you can make legendaries with dust.
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
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Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
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I don't quite have all of the cards, but I could very easily make the push and get them.
If I did, my total cash expenditure for un'goro would be far, far less than $800, Canadian or U.S.
The OP has no idea what he's talking about and should probably actually try to do it before posting such wildly inaccurate numbers.
(Note that I always do my quests, throw back the low-yield quests, and win enough games to get multiple 10-gold bonuses per day, but I don't play a lot of Arena. The dust you get from monthly rewards is also not trivial, especially at or near the top of the ladder.)
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I like tossing around this idea as much as others do, but fact is Magic is more expensive to be competitively viable. That being said, I vastly prefer Magic the Gathering over Hearthstone. Drafting is much more fun, and gives a much better sense of community. Additionally, Magic seems much more willing to try different mechanics, whereas Hearthstone seems to add just 3 or so every xpac. However, Magic is way more expensive. Average cost of competitive decks is higher, and the power level is higher. Additionally, the power level scale up exponentially the older the format, whereas Wild is still playable with only a few Wild cards.
Both games have their economic merits. I agree, Blizzard IS fucking us, but there are better ways to try and point that out than comparing to Magic.
The price to get every legendary out of a pack is a pretty silly metric. Not every legendary is even competitive, for one thing. For another, completing a set is not even close to necessary to compete on ladder. You've set an arbitrary goal for yourself (and mis-calculated the amount of dust you'll get from duplicates, which is substantial) that only a very small percentage of the user base shares.
Additionally, most of us on the forums have been playing for some time, and we don't go into every expansion in a vacuum. I only spent $90 (US) on Un'Goro packs, and with the bit of dust I saved up in the last month, plus the dust from the Hall of Fame rotation, I have 10 legendaries (4 from packs, 6 crafted). I'm already at 199 of 247 cards in the expansion. And that's without saving ANY gold, which I always spend on Arena.
Seems quite reasonable to me - all it requires is a little bit of planning for the decks you're actually going to play.