veteran player-wtf, I spend a lot of $$ or time to complete collection.
pay player-wtf , I spend $$ to get advantage vs f2p and newbie player . Now they get all the classic pack. Can build some powerful deck. F k blizzard, I quite this games. Never spend again in future etc.
newbie & f2p- wow blizzard = God. Really f2p games. May willing spend some $$ in new expansion to support blizzard.
if pay player & veteran more than newbie &f2p. Then blizzard will loses profit.
As said before, it's extremely unfair to veteran players. The best solution is doing what you said in your original post and then refunding ALL classic cards owned by players, whilst giving them a full collection as well (which Blizzard would never do).
Veteran players aren't losing anything. Nothing is taken away from them.
Yes, they are losing money that they have spent on Classic packs and time they spent earning classic packs. I don't understand how you can't see this.
You chose to spend that money at that time. Anything that happens afterwards has no bearing on that. You would have still spent that money should Blizzard have gone bust later, or if your computer has stopped working and you were unable to get a new one, or if the world had ended. What part of this hypothetical situation suddenly makes that money you spent a waste? Or is this delayed buyer's remorse?
The time you spent earning packs was not spent in a coal mine. You were playing a game you supposedly enjoy, in your spare time, for fun.
New player who is willing to support the game with money: Probably going to be pretty darned happy
New player who thinks he should never have to pay a dime but should still easily make it to Legend: Not going to be happy, does not count as a customer, Blizzard can safely ignore
New player who doesn't plan to spend money but accepts that this means he will probably lose a lot of games: Probably OK
New player who thinks his win rate should be higher than 50 percent when he hasn't even learned the game: Doesn't understand the world around him, should probably be locked up for his own safety
That's a false dilemma there. A new player can have a high win rate but still have no kind of concrete success.
@rallsopp; as much as I agree with you, I do think the problem is still that it would be a major reason to separate from the game for a lot of players. Making Classic easier to collect is a lot more defensible and more likely to occur anyway (they could gradually make it free, but there has to be a couple of transitions first I imagine). And I don't imagine that would bode well for PR whatsoever, which is already arguably in a pretty bad spot with the "3 expansions per year means I have to spend my life savings on digital cards!" stuff floating around.
For the most part, card games in general have pretty transient values after your initial purchase so I guess a lot of people might just be used to that idea. But in the current state of things, EU still can't get over two other regions getting compensation for something that was straight up an error on Blizzard's end and that's a lot more minor than "oh yeah, so the hundreds you have in Classic cards is now free if you login tomorrow".
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As said before, it's extremely unfair to veteran players. The best solution is doing what you said in your original post and then refunding ALL classic cards owned by players, whilst giving them a full collection as well (which Blizzard would never do).
Veteran players aren't losing anything. Nothing is taken away from them.
Yes, they are losing money that they have spent on Classic packs and time they spent earning classic packs. I don't understand how you can't see this.
You chose to spend that money at that time. Anything that happens afterwards has no bearing on that. You would have still spent that money should Blizzard have gone bust later, or if your computer has stopped working and you were unable to get a new one, or if the world had ended. What part of this hypothetical situation suddenly makes that money you spent a waste? Or is this delayed buyer's remorse?
The time you spent earning packs was not spent in a coal mine. You were playing a game you supposedly enjoy, in your spare time, for fun.
You lose nothing.
It's making the money a waste because it's money that's been used to pay for something everyone else will get for free. How can't you see that?
Just tell me how it's fair that someone has spent, for example, £200 on cards and then another player gets them for free. Because they bought them earlier? Still doesn't make it fair, in any way. The person that spent money is undoubtedly worse off than the one who didn't.
And anyway what makes you so entitled that you think you deserve a whole collection of cards that others have had to earn (Everyone was a new player at some point)?
EDIT: The best way to solve this problem is to introduce a system that rewards both new players and veterans. It could be daily login bonuses, or higher legendary droprates. Even as something as simple as giving all players 100 Classic Packs (which still wouldn't get you the whole Classic set, which kinda shows how crazy your suggestion is) would be a win:win for both markets.
@freshdues; no, the complaint is very much that purely from a cost perspective Hearthstone is getting more expensive to pay for than Magic and play. It really doesn't have much to do with the secondary market, strictly that packs of 5 cards in Hearthstone are now apparently in line with 15 card packs in Magic for cost. Looking at prices for things like Mythics it also looks like the most expensive playsets are about $60 in Magic which means deckbuilding costs might be lower than they were before, and I was wondering if there was some kind of write-up out there somewhere accurately comparing costs for competitive decks in both games.
People insisting you can't compare HS to Magic are still using justification that I don't think particularly applies, and it's frustrating to say the least to keep repeating this, but you absolutely can and should be comparing the two. They're both the same genre, they both fill similar niches, and for many people one or other has been a complete replacement for their card game of choice. There is definitely a difference in trading/buying/selling, but while the argument you can trade or sell cards in Magic is viable most cards simply are not worth anything at all and prices vary based solely on competitive value. In Hearthstone I might not be able to get real money for anything, but every single card dusts for the same amount no matter how viable the card is. I can also grind every single card in the game for literally no cost to me, something that's much more difficult for the average player to do in Magic. In the end, both of them have pros/cons and compete for my dollars because I want to play card games and those are two of the best on the market.
Magic vs Hearthstone isn't an apples vs oranges conversation, it's a granny smith vs fuji apples conversation. Both different enough that people will generally pick one that they like better, but they're both still being sold to people in the market for apples.
As said before, it's extremely unfair to veteran players. The best solution is doing what you said in your original post and then refunding ALL classic cards owned by players, whilst giving them a full collection as well (which Blizzard would never do).
Veteran players aren't losing anything. Nothing is taken away from them.
Yes, they are losing money that they have spent on Classic packs and time they spent earning classic packs. I don't understand how you can't see this.
You chose to spend that money at that time. Anything that happens afterwards has no bearing on that. You would have still spent that money should Blizzard have gone bust later, or if your computer has stopped working and you were unable to get a new one, or if the world had ended. What part of this hypothetical situation suddenly makes that money you spent a waste? Or is this delayed buyer's remorse?
The time you spent earning packs was not spent in a coal mine. You were playing a game you supposedly enjoy, in your spare time, for fun.
You lose nothing.
It's making the money a waste because it's money that's been used to pay for something everyone else will get for free. How are you so delusional that you can't see that?
Just tell me how it's fair that someone has spent, for example, £200 on cards and then another player gets them for free. Because they bought them earlier? Still doesn't make it fair, in any way. The person that spent money is undoubtedly worse off than the one who didn't.
And anyway what makes you so entitled that you think you deserve a whole collection of cards that others have had to earn (Everyone was a new player at some point)?
I have also found that resorting to insults is the best way to make your point. That and thinly veiled passive aggressive sentences. Oh and just to clarify, I've been playing since Beta and have spent some money on the game here and there. Definitely enough to have a relevant collection. Because you seem to think I am a new player and not just arguing the counter to yours and many other's selfish view on the matter.
Why does the worth of what you spent change based on what other people pay for something? You deemed it worth the money in the moment you bought. You spent the money. You decided it was worth it ALREADY.
If you buy a game from Steam as soon as it comes out for £30, but your buddy, let's call him Boris, buys it 3 years later with 2 expansion packs for £15. Exactly how mad, or a scale of 1 to Kim Jong-Un, would you be at Valve?
I mean, just for a second let's forget that you bought it as current content. Not content that's 3 year's out of date in the case of most cards. And look past the fact that the investment made your decks completely relevant. Let's ignore that the game evolved with you, and that you, with some careful planning could've quite easily bought most (if not all) of the adventure packs with the gold you earned while having fun with your meta relevant cards. And that this would've kept your collection up to date with little to no investment other than time, which any sane person would fairly assume you enjoyed since you chose to spend your time doing that. We should probably ignore all of this to help add validity to your argument.
@nomad_ninga; I really like both, but Fuji apples are slightly ahead in the race because they're a nice balance of tart and sweet. So in this case I guess for me Hearthstone is a nice tasty bag of Fujis. :P
Even more fitting, before Fujis were common to find at the store Granny Smiths were my go-to snack. The analogy was apparently much more applicable to me than I realized.
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Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
@rallsopp; as much as I agree with you, I do think the problem is still that it would be a major reason to separate from the game for a lot of players. Making Classic easier to collect is a lot more defensible and more likely to occur anyway (they could gradually make it free, but there has to be a couple of transitions first I imagine). And I don't imagine that would bode well for PR whatsoever, which is already arguably in a pretty bad spot with the "3 expansions per year means I have to spend my life savings on digital cards!" stuff floating around.
For the most part, card games in general have pretty transient values after your initial purchase so I guess a lot of people might just be used to that idea. But in the current state of things, EU still can't get over two other regions getting compensation for something that was straight up an error on Blizzard's end and that's a lot more minor than "oh yeah, so the hundreds you have in Classic cards is now free if you login tomorrow".
Oh yes, definitely. The tiny sample of players in this thread is probably more than enough evidence that such an abrupt change would be more detrimental to the existing player base than it would encourage new blood. A gradual change would have to be the way to do it, if it happens at all.
Magic vs Hearthstone isn't an apples vs oranges conversation, it's a granny smith vs fuji apples conversation. Both different enough that people will generally pick one that they like better, but they're both still being sold to people in the market for apples.
New player who is willing to support the game with money: Probably going to be pretty darned happy
New player who thinks he should never have to pay a dime but should still easily make it to Legend: Not going to be happy, does not count as a customer, Blizzard can safely ignore
New player who doesn't plan to spend money but accepts that this means he will probably lose a lot of games: Probably OK
New player who thinks his win rate should be higher than 50 percent when he hasn't even learned the game: Doesn't understand the world around him, should probably be locked up for his own safety
That's a false dilemma there. A new player can have a high win rate but still have no kind of concrete success.
Your statement is utterly meaningless. "Success" in a video game is a mental construct, unique to each player.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
As said before, it's extremely unfair to veteran players. The best solution is doing what you said in your original post and then refunding ALL classic cards owned by players, whilst giving them a full collection as well (which Blizzard would never do).
Veteran players aren't losing anything. Nothing is taken away from them.
Yes, they are losing money that they have spent on Classic packs and time they spent earning classic packs. I don't understand how you can't see this.
You chose to spend that money at that time. Anything that happens afterwards has no bearing on that. You would have still spent that money should Blizzard have gone bust later, or if your computer has stopped working and you were unable to get a new one, or if the world had ended. What part of this hypothetical situation suddenly makes that money you spent a waste? Or is this delayed buyer's remorse?
The time you spent earning packs was not spent in a coal mine. You were playing a game you supposedly enjoy, in your spare time, for fun.
You lose nothing.
It's making the money a waste because it's money that's been used to pay for something everyone else will get for free. How are you so delusional that you can't see that?
Just tell me how it's fair that someone has spent, for example, £200 on cards and then another player gets them for free. Because they bought them earlier? Still doesn't make it fair, in any way. The person that spent money is undoubtedly worse off than the one who didn't.
And anyway what makes you so entitled that you think you deserve a whole collection of cards that others have had to earn (Everyone was a new player at some point)?
I have also found that resorting to insults is the best way to make your point. That and thinly veiled passive aggressive sentences. Oh and just to clarify, I've been playing since Beta and have spent some money on the game here and there. Definitely enough to have a relevant collection. Because you seem to think I am a new player and not just arguing the counter to yours and many other's selfish view on the matter.
Why does the worth of what you spent change based on what other people pay for something? You deemed it worth the money in the moment you bought. You spent the money. You decided it was worth it ALREADY.
If you buy a game from Steam as soon as it comes out for £30, but your buddy, let's call him Boris, buys it 3 years later with 2 expansion packs for £15. Exactly how mad, or a scale of 1 to Kim Jong-Un, would you be at Valve?
I mean, just for a second let's forget that you bought it as current content. Not content that's 3 year's out of date in the case of most cards. And look past the fact that the investment made your decks completely relevant. Let's ignore that the game evolved with you, and that you, with some careful planning could've quite easily bought most (if not all) of the adventure packs with the gold you earned while having fun with your meta relevant cards. And that this would've kept your collection up to date with little to no investment other than time, which any sane person would fairly assume you enjoyed since you chose to spend your time doing that. We should probably ignore all of this to help add validity to your argument.
"Why does the worth of what you spent change based on what other people pay for something? You deemed it worth the money in the moment you bought. You spent the money. You decided it was worth it ALREADY."
Yes, it was worth the money & gold I spent, and therefore it should be worth that much for everybody. If everyone else gets it for free, it would then not be worth the money/gold, because I could've gotten all that content for free.
"If you buy a game from Steam as soon as it comes out for £30, but your buddy, let's call him Boris, buys it 3 years later with 2 expansion packs for £15. Exactly how mad, or a scale of 1 to Kim Jong-Un, would you be at Valve? "
Not the same situation because games like that do literally go down in value. Classic packs in Hearthstone are evergreen, many cards that you open now are still as good as they were back in the day. I don't exactly know how to phrase it but I hope you catch my drift. A better example would be, you've been paying £15 a month for a Netflix subscription for a year, and suddenly Netflix says "We're gonna give everyone who doesn't have a subscription a whole years worth for free to make up for it". I would be 'Kim Jong-Un' mad at that because I would've been ripped off.
"I mean, just for a second let's forget that you bought it as current content. Not content that's 3 year's out of date in the case of most cards. And look past the fact that the investment made your decks completely relevant. Let's ignore that the game evolved with you, and that you, with some careful planning could've quite easily bought most (if not all) of the adventure packs with the gold you earned while having fun with your meta relevant cards. And that this would've kept your collection up to date with little to no investment other than time, which any sane person would fairly assume you enjoyed since you chose to spend your time doing that. "
Classic packs are still current content. Find me a competitive deck without classic cards in and I'll take back everything I said. A lot of the 'out of date' cards you're talking about were still bad back in the day, but we still had to pay for them. Yes, the investment made my decks relevant but I don't see why that means Classic set should be given out for free. Why shouldn't everyone have to work to make their decks relevant, this is a CCG after all. Just because someone starts the game later, doesn't mean they should immediately be at the standard of everyone else, under that logic, new Overwatch players should just be placed in Grandmasters. Finally, yes whilst I did enjoy my time playing however, and many other players will agree, you do have to grind to get cards still. It's like Pokemon, sometimes you just have to spend a hour of boring ass battling and leveling up to evolve your guy. And that is not fun, but the reward is worth it, however it wouldn't seem worth it if someone else just gets the reward for free.
Oh yes, definitely. The tiny sample of players in this thread is probably more than enough evidence that such an abrupt change would be more detrimental to the existing player base than it would encourage new blood. A gradual change would have to be the way to do it, if it happens at all.
What's more likely to happen regardless (giving away Classic is a neat idea in some ways but I don't think it's the right idea) is more that people should be analyzing pain points in the existing f2p system and looking for improvement in those. The new player experience will still suck if they had every Classic card, because that's honestly not where the pain points are.
I think there are like three threads discussing this topic in different ways, but I saw in one that the estimate was that you could get about 198 packs per expansion. On the face of it that's awesome! Until you realize that's taking into account that person is grinding 30 wins every day and that kind of grind is prohibitive, to say the least, for most people. And depending on the tavern brawl for that week, there really isn't anything outside of Ranked/Casual that lets you do that. I'm all for making people work for their packs/collection and I want them to have to play the game to get both of those... but I think the current model is one that borders on masochism to try and optimize.
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I can't agree with making the whole of classic set free, but there does need to be a significant boost for new players. I'd say something like 40 free classic packs, probably given out slowly as you play games packs and free 2000 dust wad to spend. It doesn't really cost Blizzard anything to do this, but driving new players away from the game certainly does cost them in the long run.
To be honest, one way to make it much better would be to release free adventures. Give away free packs and/or cards by beating various AI opponents while teaching some basics. Also expansions and adventures could be combined by having both. For example, Un'goro could have also came with adventure to give some cards away for free. There is a quite bit of demand for solo content in this game, especially if competitors games are any indication with their more extensive campaigns.
The point is, Blizzard needs to learn that sometimes you should spend money to free content, to make people want to buy your premium content, especially when it comes to free-to-play games. They have already started to do that but they seem hesitant to put serious funding to free content.
Yeah, I know you can technically grind gold to get most of the content free but come on, even if you roll quests to better rewards, keep completing them and hit your 100 gold cap daily by winning matches, it's a joke compared to ton of other free-to-play games where it's actually practical.
I like one or both of: 1) rewarding new accounts with a bunch of classic packs, or offering a very cheap pack with no or reduced chances of legendaries. As a long-timer, I would be salty to see every new account getting all the legendaries, but aside from that, I say give them a big head start on classic.
@Clord; in theory we're actually getting that exact feature in the next expansion. They killed adventures as we know them but are going to be adding PvE content alongside each expansion to kind of fill in that niche. Sadly not a lot of details other than that. :-/
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Making Classic completely free would mean they give infintie amount of dust to players with full collections. Never gonna happen.
But they should give way more free classic packs than the one for Tavern Brawl. Like every 3 days you get a pack as daily login reward, tavern Brawl gets you 3 packs and maybe 1k gold for 28 consecutive logins
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veteran player-wtf, I spend a lot of $$ or time to complete collection.
pay player-wtf , I spend $$ to get advantage vs f2p and newbie player . Now they get all the classic pack. Can build some powerful deck. F k blizzard, I quite this games. Never spend again in future etc.
newbie & f2p- wow blizzard = God. Really f2p games. May willing spend some $$ in new expansion to support blizzard.
if pay player & veteran more than newbie &f2p. Then blizzard will loses profit.
perhaps if blizzard gave everyone a mediocre quest for free...
Barbatos
\(^3^)/
The pleasant dreams I once had were obliterated by the meta...
Ysera
@rallsopp; as much as I agree with you, I do think the problem is still that it would be a major reason to separate from the game for a lot of players. Making Classic easier to collect is a lot more defensible and more likely to occur anyway (they could gradually make it free, but there has to be a couple of transitions first I imagine). And I don't imagine that would bode well for PR whatsoever, which is already arguably in a pretty bad spot with the "3 expansions per year means I have to spend my life savings on digital cards!" stuff floating around.
For the most part, card games in general have pretty transient values after your initial purchase so I guess a lot of people might just be used to that idea. But in the current state of things, EU still can't get over two other regions getting compensation for something that was straight up an error on Blizzard's end and that's a lot more minor than "oh yeah, so the hundreds you have in Classic cards is now free if you login tomorrow".
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
playing wild
~nomad
@nomad_ninga; I really like both, but Fuji apples are slightly ahead in the race because they're a nice balance of tart and sweet. So in this case I guess for me Hearthstone is a nice tasty bag of Fujis. :P
Even more fitting, before Fujis were common to find at the store Granny Smiths were my go-to snack. The analogy was apparently much more applicable to me than I realized.
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Yes, it was worth the money & gold I spent, and therefore it should be worth that much for everybody. If everyone else gets it for free, it would then not be worth the money/gold, because I could've gotten all that content for free.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the new player experience is good, but there are way better ways to go about it than this. This thread has a lot of good ideas that helps new players start up, whilst also helping old players improve their existing collection https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/64yqed/blizzard_you_either_have_to_a_make_packs_cheaper/
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
I can't agree with making the whole of classic set free, but there does need to be a significant boost for new players. I'd say something like 40 free classic packs, probably given out slowly as you play games packs and free 2000 dust wad to spend. It doesn't really cost Blizzard anything to do this, but driving new players away from the game certainly does cost them in the long run.
To be honest, one way to make it much better would be to release free adventures. Give away free packs and/or cards by beating various AI opponents while teaching some basics. Also expansions and adventures could be combined by having both. For example, Un'goro could have also came with adventure to give some cards away for free. There is a quite bit of demand for solo content in this game, especially if competitors games are any indication with their more extensive campaigns.
The point is, Blizzard needs to learn that sometimes you should spend money to free content, to make people want to buy your premium content, especially when it comes to free-to-play games. They have already started to do that but they seem hesitant to put serious funding to free content.
Yeah, I know you can technically grind gold to get most of the content free but come on, even if you roll quests to better rewards, keep completing them and hit your 100 gold cap daily by winning matches, it's a joke compared to ton of other free-to-play games where it's actually practical.
I like one or both of: 1) rewarding new accounts with a bunch of classic packs, or offering a very cheap pack with no or reduced chances of legendaries. As a long-timer, I would be salty to see every new account getting all the legendaries, but aside from that, I say give them a big head start on classic.
@Clord; in theory we're actually getting that exact feature in the next expansion. They killed adventures as we know them but are going to be adding PvE content alongside each expansion to kind of fill in that niche. Sadly not a lot of details other than that. :-/
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
Making Classic completely free would mean they give infintie amount of dust to players with full collections. Never gonna happen.
But they should give way more free classic packs than the one for Tavern Brawl. Like every 3 days you get a pack as daily login reward, tavern Brawl gets you 3 packs and maybe 1k gold for 28 consecutive logins