I get the idea and it does fix the "new player experience" but what you arent taking into account is the older players. They would be furious if they had spent money on the game and then everyone was given the ONLY set that will never rotate for free.
Imagine you spend $300 on a jacket, but then everyone else is given the exact same jacket free of charge. I don't know about you but Id certainly feel cheated out of my $300 and also offended that I was not given the set for free.
Please read my response to this using the Car analogy someone made on the first page; this argument ceases to hold any meaning when the item is digital, not physical.
No, it doesn't. Money spent is still money spent. If you spent $300 on an online game then everyone got what you just payed for for free the exact same results would happen. Money does not stop being money the second it becomes digital.
The problem is that CCGs require both cards, and skill.
As an arena player, coming back to play after a long while this week, at rank 23 -- TWENTYTHREE -- I encountered three quest rogues in 5 games. Before rank 20. Playing a randomly put together Dragon Priest.
One of the 5 first players I played had only basic cards. ...crushing him just felt bad.
Returning players with great collections and skill face entirely new players in a competetive PvP game.
...
Imagine if League of Legends pitted max level accounts with maxed rune pages and masteries piloted by challenger players against completely new players in half their games.
... Solutions that actually work: Don't force new players to play against -- not players who have paid -- but players who have a thousand times their experience, and collections to match their time played.
Compare to fighting, if you will. PvP is a fight.
Hearthstone is like a fighting tournament where new fighters with practically zero training randomly are paired up with MMA stars.
Blizzard needs to start treating Hearthstone like a sport: You need tiers of play.
New players need a safe zone where they don't face several 1000+ hour players in a row.
'that is not how economy works' --- ah, the experts. however, lots of other games are doing just fine while being far more generous at incentive towards new and old players alike. look at the numbers; Hearthstone has surpassed even physical card games in terms of pricing, and they're looking to up the ante here. it's these sort of sheepish 'baaaah it's how the system works' passive comments that allow this corporate behavior. I mean for god's sakes, Hearthstone hasn't even implemented a daily reward system! even greedy asian ccg/tcgs do that.
Hearthstone could be more generous, but not this generous. "Hearthstone is too greedy and doesn't have daily rewards, therefor they should give the entire Classic set to all players for free" is like saying "narcissism is bad, therefor narcissistic people should lose all of their self respect and commit a suicide". 2x copies of all Classic epics, or 2x copies of all Classic commons and rares, or 6400 free dust to everyone are ideas that I wouldn't necessarily oppose, but the entire Classic set is an idea completely off the charts.
'nothing is wrong with the new user experience' --- nonsense, even the old player experience is poor. you could think this is all fine if you haven't been exposed to other games which are far more welcoming and rewarding, that just makes you very short sighted and lacking compassion and understanding.
There are things wrong with the new player experience, but the game being too grindy and not rewarding enough isn't one of them.
there are epics and legendaries in classic that I've never even seen from a pack, and I've been playing since Naxx and have spent some cash into the game. that is completely mental. after these years in the game there's still decks I am yet to build because of the horrible dust/rarity ratio! a new player is also forced into playing archetypes that he can afford, his rewards and progress are fairly limited per day, all in the faint hopes that someday some months away he'll actually be able to build a deck of his liking.
The reason for the first point is that you've stopped buying Classic packs and moved on to newer sets. How long you've played is irrelevant, what matters is the time you've spent collecting the Classic set. The reason for the second point is that you've stopped trying to make decks for the oldest archetypes. Both of these are caused by the fact that new content is being released, and it is being released faster than you're collecting it. The only solution is making content slower than it is being consumed by customers. This is obviously a horrible situation that should never be pursued by game developers.
The prices you mentioned are the prices of completing the game, and the gold income you calculated is the minimum. Playing 5 wins a day and optimising your daily quests pushes the number very close to 30000, and with ~60 packs you get most of the commons and rares of the set and enough dust to make a few decks you like. The game could be a bit more generous, but by setting an unrealistic goal of achieving and maintaining a full collection you're exxaggerating by how much more generous it should be.
You pay for access to the content, you cant access to all the content because it emulates a tcg, so you gotta take your time and money to unlock it all. If it would have been a 20$ entrance fee would have been awesome, but, its too late for that.
And talking about the phisicality issue... it doesnt matter, you are having fun, you are using the cards, and they have an impact in your gaming experience, they are real, they exist, maybe not in paper, but, they do exist. And, the argument that one day the servers will go down is ludacris, obvious stuff is obvious. Do you buy 2 or 3 drinks at a bar on a weekend thinking that you will take those drinks forever phisically with you? Do you pay to enter a museum thinking that you will take the whole museum back home? Of course not, you would be stupid if you think that! Me and my gf buy 15 packs per weekend to have fun, as we go out and have some drinks, to have fun. Things aren't for ever, but memories are. When playing this game, and having fun and epic matchs we are building memories to laugh on the future.
It would be unfair if people who didnt pay cash have the same stuff that people that pay has. That's unfair. I would have gone to have even more drinks if that was the case, because i would have all the cards either way.
If you want to play a CCG, play a CCG and follow the logic of a CCG, if not, buy a closed full game like thalisman or D&D. Or even better, play MTG only with friends and print all the card you need! (before moving, we played mtg this way with my friends against us, it was so awesome!, and a full deck was worth something like 5 USD including the deck protectors and high quality printings!)
i would rather pay to go to the museum. If not, I'll see it on Youtube. Hearthstone works the same way, if you want to experience it, pay for it or grind really slowly for it, if not, watch streamers.
I feel like people have a misconception of the new player experience... What I mean is a lot of people assume every new player is a free to play player which definitely isn't the case. The game is fine and you can use a basic deck to get to rank 20 with time. I remember being hooked when I first started playing hearthstone a few years back and ya it took time but I learned all the new cards I used my own decks that I thought were sooo epic (it definitely wasn't) and I had fun. Not all, infact I'd venture to argue most players don't start Hearthstone or any new game for that matter not spending a single dollar and ask "Okay, where is the legend rank button?" Any console game and most PC games you want are going to cost 60$s it isn't absurd to think that if you want to unlock the full experience you would do the same in most games.
I've chucked a metric shit-tonne of money at this game since I started playing shortly after Kara came out. I can build most decks I find on the Internet and if something interesting shows up that uses a card I don't have, I can just throw money at a few card packs, dust the duplicates (which is most of the cards I get out of packs these days), and craft it. I'm pretty hopeless at building decks. Most of the decks I play come from the net with just a few minor tweaks from me.
My son has his own account. He's still at school and has little income to speak of. He's bought Kara and the welcome bundle. In all other respects, he's a f2p player. He may not have the breadth of cards I have so he concentrates on just two classes and dabbles in the others. He's become very good at building decks because he's forced to be creative and think outside the box.
My son has at least as much fun playing Hearthstone as I do.
And as far as the new player experience is concerned, let's not forget that the matchmaker pairs up new players with other new players; they're not thrown to the wolves.
Based on my experience and that of my son, I don't see the need to change anything.
Absolutely, the game is fine, in CCG you have to be resourcefull, then you will start having alternatives!
no, fuck that. i spent a lot of time and money getting classic cards. unless blizzard gives me a refund, fuck them. either spend the time farming classic packs or spend some fucking money. easy as that
You're literally saying you'd rather have a collection than more people to play the game with.....
See, here's the thing; card games are incredibly hard to get into, and adding in an arbitrary gate in the form of Classic just prevents new players coming in and competing. More players will always be better than fewer with money; that's why Legacy is often considered the most *fun* Magic format, but the least played because only people with millions can afford to play it.
I'm not saying that they shouldn't give everyone a Golden Classic set that've played the game since forever, but Classic is the best set to give away to get the new players. Anything else is simply pissing in the problem-wind, as it were.
You've just come across the real problem of the hearthstone community in general.
Most players are so selfish, they'd rather see the game destroyed than sacrifice their win rate etc.
I dont give a shit about my winrate, but i have spent time and money investing into the game. I started during GvG and it was very hard because i didnt have the cards. Guess what? I SPENT SOME MONEY and caught up. People already get to play this game for FREE if they want to, that doesn't mean they should automatically get full access to all the cards because they aren't supporting the company that made the game in the first place.
If anything, they should reduce the cost of crafting commons and rares or increase the dust refund value for the classic set. the 5/50 and 20/100 ratio is pretty daunting to deal with in the beginning (I have a second F2P account so I know what I'm talking about) and if those ratios were slightly adjusted to even 10/40 and 25/75 it would be a lot easier to begin making viable budget decks from the beginning.
The worst thing I noticed when I started was I would be using a 400 dust deck in casual to try and do my dailies and would get paired vs golden portrait players or even just players with all adventures, I obviously lost the vast majority of those matchups. Maybe just change the matchup system so new players play against eachother more often, even if that doesnt give you 10 gold per 3 wins but just helps new players with dailies so they can get their gold and buy packs/arena.
So I've seen this theme a lot in this thread, and the people objecting to the entirety of Classic being given to new players because they paid isn't something that needs to be looked down on; I think it's reasonable to object to something being made free that you may have spent a lot of money on. Even if some people are completely fine with accepting that kind of change, it's no reason to demonize those who don't feel that way.
Another thing I've seen thrown around is that Hearthstone is now more expensive than Magic? I'm not quite sure that's the case outside of casual gameplay, but I'd love to see what numbers people are basing that off of. Like seriously, if you have a link to what people are referencing I'd love to see it since it's intriguing if true.
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Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
And okay, I spent a bit of money, but not much at all and I'm currently rank 12 in standard n my first ever season. Based on time left this month v the time I spend playing - I expect to reach around rank 8.
I don't see a problem with the new player experience. As a newer player, one cannot expect to be super competitive against old timers in any game or sport in the world. That's just normal. More upsetting for me is to not have the access or ability to craft cards that were available in the past that others do have in their collections - but that's the design of the game and I can live with that.
Overall, I can call myself a very happy new player 😆
So I've seen this theme a lot in this thread, and the people objecting to the entirety of Classic being given to new players because they paid isn't something that needs to be looked down on; I think it's reasonable to object to something being made free that you may have spent a lot of money on. Even if some people are completely fine with accepting that kind of change, it's no reason to demonize those who don't feel that way.
Another thing I've seen thrown around is that Hearthstone is now more expensive than Magic? I'm not quite sure that's the case outside of casual gameplay, but I'd love to see what numbers people are basing that off of. Like seriously, if you have a link to what people are referencing I'd love to see it since it's intriguing if true.
Just give new new players for 2-3 months a classic pack a day for login/win ( wont take quest slot) and all other players for 1 month so they wont whine. It should be nice boost to new guys.
@freshdues; no, the complaint is very much that purely from a cost perspective Hearthstone is getting more expensive to pay for than Magic and play. It really doesn't have much to do with the secondary market, strictly that packs of 5 cards in Hearthstone are now apparently in line with 15 card packs in Magic for cost. Looking at prices for things like Mythics it also looks like the most expensive playsets are about $60 in Magic which means deckbuilding costs might be lower than they were before, and I was wondering if there was some kind of write-up out there somewhere accurately comparing costs for competitive decks in both games.
People insisting you can't compare HS to Magic are still using justification that I don't think particularly applies, and it's frustrating to say the least to keep repeating this, but you absolutely can and should be comparing the two. They're both the same genre, they both fill similar niches, and for many people one or other has been a complete replacement for their card game of choice. There is definitely a difference in trading/buying/selling, but while the argument you can trade or sell cards in Magic is viable most cards simply are not worth anything at all and prices vary based solely on competitive value. In Hearthstone I might not be able to get real money for anything, but every single card dusts for the same amount no matter how viable the card is. I can also grind every single card in the game for literally no cost to me, something that's much more difficult for the average player to do in Magic. In the end, both of them have pros/cons and compete for my dollars because I want to play card games and those are two of the best on the market.
Magic vs Hearthstone isn't an apples vs oranges conversation, it's a granny smith vs fuji apples conversation. Both different enough that people will generally pick one that they like better, but they're both still being sold to people in the market for apples.
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Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
New player who is willing to support the game with money: Probably going to be pretty darned happy
New player who thinks he should never have to pay a dime but should still easily make it to Legend: Not going to be happy, does not count as a customer, Blizzard can safely ignore
New player who doesn't plan to spend money but accepts that this means he will probably lose a lot of games: Probably OK
New player who thinks his win rate should be higher than 50 percent when he hasn't even learned the game: Doesn't understand the world around him, should probably be locked up for his own safety
As said before, it's extremely unfair to veteran players. The best solution is doing what you said in your original post and then refunding ALL classic cards owned by players, whilst giving them a full collection as well (which Blizzard would never do).
As said before, it's extremely unfair to veteran players. The best solution is doing what you said in your original post and then refunding ALL classic cards owned by players, whilst giving them a full collection as well (which Blizzard would never do).
Veteran players aren't losing anything. Nothing is taken away from them.
As said before, it's extremely unfair to veteran players. The best solution is doing what you said in your original post and then refunding ALL classic cards owned by players, whilst giving them a full collection as well (which Blizzard would never do).
Veteran players aren't losing anything. Nothing is taken away from them.
Yes, they are losing money that they have spent on Classic packs and time they spent earning classic packs. I don't understand how you can't see this.
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Always Hunters. Always Huffers.
Money isn't really the issue.
The problem is that CCGs require both cards, and skill.
As an arena player, coming back to play after a long while this week, at rank 23 -- TWENTYTHREE -- I encountered three quest rogues in 5 games.
Before rank 20.
Playing a randomly put together Dragon Priest.
One of the 5 first players I played had only basic cards.
...crushing him just felt bad.
Returning players with great collections and skill face entirely new players in a competetive PvP game.
...
Imagine if League of Legends pitted max level accounts with maxed rune pages and masteries piloted by challenger players against completely new players in half their games.
...
Solutions that actually work:
Don't force new players to play against -- not players who have paid -- but players who have a thousand times their experience, and collections to match their time played.
Compare to fighting, if you will.
PvP is a fight.
Hearthstone is like a fighting tournament where new fighters with practically zero training randomly are paired up with MMA stars.
Blizzard needs to start treating Hearthstone like a sport:
You need tiers of play.
New players need a safe zone where they don't face several 1000+ hour players in a row.
You pay for access to the content, you cant access to all the content because it emulates a tcg, so you gotta take your time and money to unlock it all. If it would have been a 20$ entrance fee would have been awesome, but, its too late for that.
And talking about the phisicality issue... it doesnt matter, you are having fun, you are using the cards, and they have an impact in your gaming experience, they are real, they exist, maybe not in paper, but, they do exist. And, the argument that one day the servers will go down is ludacris, obvious stuff is obvious. Do you buy 2 or 3 drinks at a bar on a weekend thinking that you will take those drinks forever phisically with you? Do you pay to enter a museum thinking that you will take the whole museum back home? Of course not, you would be stupid if you think that! Me and my gf buy 15 packs per weekend to have fun, as we go out and have some drinks, to have fun. Things aren't for ever, but memories are. When playing this game, and having fun and epic matchs we are building memories to laugh on the future.
It would be unfair if people who didnt pay cash have the same stuff that people that pay has. That's unfair. I would have gone to have even more drinks if that was the case, because i would have all the cards either way.
If you want to play a CCG, play a CCG and follow the logic of a CCG, if not, buy a closed full game like thalisman or D&D. Or even better, play MTG only with friends and print all the card you need! (before moving, we played mtg this way with my friends against us, it was so awesome!, and a full deck was worth something like 5 USD including the deck protectors and high quality printings!)
To everyone saying blizzard needs to create match making favourable for new players please read this link:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/191995-if-the-new-player-experience-is-a-problem-give?page=4#c74
Also, for tiers it's already been created the 5 rank lockout. Most top 10% players begin each month ranks 19-16 and can't even be present in r20+.
The point of this post though is for some posters to stop complaining over things that are in game already and maybe to get a little more informed.
i would rather pay to go to the museum. If not, I'll see it on Youtube. Hearthstone works the same way, if you want to experience it, pay for it or grind really slowly for it, if not, watch streamers.
I feel like people have a misconception of the new player experience... What I mean is a lot of people assume every new player is a free to play player which definitely isn't the case. The game is fine and you can use a basic deck to get to rank 20 with time. I remember being hooked when I first started playing hearthstone a few years back and ya it took time but I learned all the new cards I used my own decks that I thought were sooo epic (it definitely wasn't) and I had fun. Not all, infact I'd venture to argue most players don't start Hearthstone or any new game for that matter not spending a single dollar and ask "Okay, where is the legend rank button?" Any console game and most PC games you want are going to cost 60$s it isn't absurd to think that if you want to unlock the full experience you would do the same in most games.
-EDIT-
So I've seen this theme a lot in this thread, and the people objecting to the entirety of Classic being given to new players because they paid isn't something that needs to be looked down on; I think it's reasonable to object to something being made free that you may have spent a lot of money on. Even if some people are completely fine with accepting that kind of change, it's no reason to demonize those who don't feel that way.
Another thing I've seen thrown around is that Hearthstone is now more expensive than Magic? I'm not quite sure that's the case outside of casual gameplay, but I'd love to see what numbers people are basing that off of. Like seriously, if you have a link to what people are referencing I'd love to see it since it's intriguing if true.
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
New player here....
And okay, I spent a bit of money, but not much at all and I'm currently rank 12 in standard n my first ever season. Based on time left this month v the time I spend playing - I expect to reach around rank 8.
I don't see a problem with the new player experience. As a newer player, one cannot expect to be super competitive against old timers in any game or sport in the world. That's just normal. More upsetting for me is to not have the access or ability to craft cards that were available in the past that others do have in their collections - but that's the design of the game and I can live with that.
Overall, I can call myself a very happy new player 😆
playing wild
~nomad
Just give new new players for 2-3 months a classic pack a day for login/win ( wont take quest slot) and all other players for 1 month so they wont whine. It should be nice boost to new guys.
@freshdues; no, the complaint is very much that purely from a cost perspective Hearthstone is getting more expensive to pay for than Magic and play. It really doesn't have much to do with the secondary market, strictly that packs of 5 cards in Hearthstone are now apparently in line with 15 card packs in Magic for cost. Looking at prices for things like Mythics it also looks like the most expensive playsets are about $60 in Magic which means deckbuilding costs might be lower than they were before, and I was wondering if there was some kind of write-up out there somewhere accurately comparing costs for competitive decks in both games.
People insisting you can't compare HS to Magic are still using justification that I don't think particularly applies, and it's frustrating to say the least to keep repeating this, but you absolutely can and should be comparing the two. They're both the same genre, they both fill similar niches, and for many people one or other has been a complete replacement for their card game of choice. There is definitely a difference in trading/buying/selling, but while the argument you can trade or sell cards in Magic is viable most cards simply are not worth anything at all and prices vary based solely on competitive value. In Hearthstone I might not be able to get real money for anything, but every single card dusts for the same amount no matter how viable the card is. I can also grind every single card in the game for literally no cost to me, something that's much more difficult for the average player to do in Magic. In the end, both of them have pros/cons and compete for my dollars because I want to play card games and those are two of the best on the market.
Magic vs Hearthstone isn't an apples vs oranges conversation, it's a granny smith vs fuji apples conversation. Both different enough that people will generally pick one that they like better, but they're both still being sold to people in the market for apples.
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
New player who is willing to support the game with money: Probably going to be pretty darned happy
New player who thinks he should never have to pay a dime but should still easily make it to Legend: Not going to be happy, does not count as a customer, Blizzard can safely ignore
New player who doesn't plan to spend money but accepts that this means he will probably lose a lot of games: Probably OK
New player who thinks his win rate should be higher than 50 percent when he hasn't even learned the game: Doesn't understand the world around him, should probably be locked up for his own safety
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
As said before, it's extremely unfair to veteran players. The best solution is doing what you said in your original post and then refunding ALL classic cards owned by players, whilst giving them a full collection as well (which Blizzard would never do).