I agree with most of the suggestions, however the Jade swarmed math is off. A 1/1 is worth 0 mana, akin to Wisp or Tinyfin, as it can be killed by almost anything including hero powers. The addition of stealth cannot be removed as it is integral to the identity of rogue built up in MSOG and doesn't add very much value when compared to Worgen Inflitrator. Additionally, I disagree with your weapon change. Weapons vary incredibly in power based on their damage output and a 1/3 weapon is worth almost nothing as seen by the mana cost of the pirate which gives you such a weapon or the rogue hero power.
I think it is a very dangerous assumption to think a 1/1 is worth 0 mana because that lacks scaleability. What are 2 1/1s worth? 0 + 0 = 0. See the problem?
I think a 1/1 is worth 0.5 mana, but because hearthstone doesn't have 0.5 mana intervals a card like Wisp either has to be a 0 mana card or 1 mana card. Given how underpowered a 1/1 for 1 would be it makes sense they made it 0 mana.
The comparison to N'Zoth's First Mate is fair, but I think that card is overpowered as are most 1-drops in the game (but that rant is better saved for another time.
Nice post, although you forgot overload on Jade Claws.
The way I think of it, once you hit 5 Golems, the average value for all Jade Golems summoned this game is positive. In most games, the jades go way higher than 5, so the mechanic is undercosted.
leave Jade Swarmer alone! jade rogue is already bad and has incredibly low winrate vs pirate warrior, dragon priest, any shaman and reno decks. 2 mana 1/1 summon a 1/1 is just too slow. if you can follow it with a raptor its decent, but that still doesn't qualify as needing a nerf. Jade Idol is the main problem. druid can get up to 10/10 pretty fast, often facing 6/6 golems when im on 4-5 mana which is usually too much to overcome.
I can see why you wouldn't want Jade Swarmer changed. I mostly changed it for consistency rather than because I think it itself is a problem, more because Jade Golem as a whole is a problem. Of the proposed changes it is the one I care about the least.
I think a bigger problem is that Jade cards genuinely limit design space. How can Blizzard destroy Bladeflurry to make room for other cards but make a card like Jade Idol which is basically a single card autowin against slower decks? Looking at Un'goro with all it's huge dinosaurs they'll just lose against any midrange/control jade decks because you can't keep up with 1 mana 7/7s and 8/8s or a 5/3 that summons a 4/4 and when it dies summons a 5/5. I like the changes but the ability to generate unlimited jades is the biggest problem. Jades would be fine at their mana cost if most stopped around 5/5 or 6/6.
Jade Swarmer: Without the Jade Golem, it is a 1/1 Stealth. 1/1 is worth 0.5 mana according to the formula without the Stealth. Stealth tends to be worth 0.5 mana, so it is worth 1.5 mana without the Jade Golem, meaning the Jade Golem is worth 0.5 mana.
[
Wait.... So if you take .5 mana and add .5 mana, you get 1.5 mana? You've got a bunch of stuff like this in that long post, but this is the most blatant of them.
Shaman, Druid, and Rogue are all about out-valuing their opponent with the likes of Overload allowing Shaman to play bigger minions now, Druid to ramp up and continuously play big minions, and Rogue with it's cost reduction effects/combo. The Jade Mechanic is fine.
Also, you're proposed changes are basically being made by Rock when Paper is winning; you have to actually analyze why cards have the stats that they have. Jade Claws is a 2 mana 2/2 weapon because a 3 mana 2/2 weapon would come down too late to control the board and a 2 mana 1/3 weapon is unplayable garbage (look at Spirit Claws). Jade Behemoth IS already fairly costed since a 4 mana 3/6 + ability is well within the curve, and this tacks on a 2 mana jade (exactly what you think they should cost). Aya Blackpaw is a legendery, so there's already leeway there, but she's also one of the main driving cards behind the archetype; you nerf her because she supports it too well and you might as well Nerf Kazakus because he swings boards around faster than she can.
You can't claim that you're formula is "simple so inaccurate" and then go on to make sweeping changes to the cards.
IMO (disclaimer: I play jade shaman) the problem with jade is Jade Idol because it changes jade druid from the usual ramp BS, which is annoying but mostly balanced to infinite golem auction insanity with multiple 8/8s and up in a turn that's just unrecoverable. Jade Behemoth, while fine on it's own, makes it a good bit harder to kill the auctioneer. Or the significantly bigger golem behind him..
Jade shaman is fine. I'm tired of hearing QQ about jade decks when you really mean jade druid. I usually get out about 6-7 jade golems in a game, and honestly I think that's about what they were intended to do. Yeah, a 2 mana weapon that makes a free 6/6 is scary, but it's only possible late enough in the game that a 6/6 isn't gamebreaking on it's own. And you can call me a bad, but I usually end up rank 12 or 13 in a season, I could get higher playing dragon priest or something but I legitimately enjoy playing the Jade Chieftain + Evolve variant. It's a lot of fun!
Jade rogue is a joke, just like C'thun rogue. Yeah, I still remember you, Blade of C'Thun. The *only* C'thun synergy rogue got. And then only two jade cards, compared to three in both druid and shaman... And while Jade Shuriken is fine, Jade Swarmer is crap. 2 mana for a 1 health minion that only makes golems when it dies? Even the rogue hero power has better value ):
Jade Swarmer: Without the Jade Golem, it is a 1/1 Stealth. 1/1 is worth 0.5 mana according to the formula without the Stealth. Stealth tends to be worth 0.5 mana, so it is worth 1.5 mana without the Jade Golem, meaning the Jade Golem is worth 0.5 mana.
[
Wait.... So if you take .5 mana and add .5 mana, you get 1.5 mana? You've got a bunch of stuff like this in that long post, but this is the most blatant of them.
Shaman, Druid, and Rogue are all about out-valuing their opponent with the likes of Overload allowing Shaman to play bigger minions now, Druid to ramp up and continuously play big minions, and Rogue with it's cost reduction effects/combo. The Jade Mechanic is fine.
Also, you're proposed changes are basically being made by Rock when Paper is winning; you have to actually analyze why cards have the stats that they have. Jade Claws is a 2 mana 2/2 weapon because a 3 mana 2/2 weapon would come down too late to control the board and a 2 mana 1/3 weapon is unplayable garbage (look at Spirit Claws). Jade Behemoth IS already fairly costed since a 4 mana 3/6 + ability is well within the curve, and this tacks on a 2 mana jade (exactly what you think they should cost). Aya Blackpaw is a legendery, so there's already leeway there, but she's also one of the main driving cards behind the archetype; you nerf her because she supports it too well and you might as well Nerf Kazakus because he swings boards around faster than she can.
You can't claim that you're formula is "simple so inaccurate" and then go on to make sweeping changes to the cards.
Thank you for catching the mistake. I did the calculations in my head late at night so I knew there would be typos so that's for catching it. It should be fixed now.
3 main responses to your criticism. First, the calculations were intentionally done in a vacuum without consideration to factors like class identity, additional synergy and overall class powerlevel (which is why I would suggest nerfing a card like Jade Swarmer even though Rogue as a class isn't doing hot in the meta). I never claimed otherwise. Second, I'd argue that a 4/6 with ano ability is above power curve because the power curve of the game is not in balance. Cards that are above curve get play, which is why cards like Spirit Claws don't see play even though they are in theory fine (but that rant is for another time and I'm in the process of doing the math to prove it). Finally, the formula is simple, yes, but it's meant for ballpark estimates as opposed to hard and fast rule. I'd never suggest nerfing Jade Golem only based on the formula, but because of the formula and their meta impact.
Personally I'd increase mana cost of Jade Spirit to 5 mana to screw up a larger portion of jade openings-midgame across all three classes. Their average winrate would go down a bit, which might lead to their lesser presence in the meta.
P.S. I don't think Jade Idol needs a nerf - and that's a golden priest talking. As a designer you don't need to completely kill decks - you want to make some less attractive.
build pay to win druid next weeks. 20 legendary+spell. free win vs f2p and most match up
You are by far my favorite poster on here. Literally any time anyone has a problem with a card or mechanic that most people you come in here with your sentences that don't really make sense and complain about pay to win. I think Jade cards are undercosted and also the fact that there is no cap on them seems cool at first but it limits what Blizzard can do more than any other card/mechanic in the game. Guess what dude, I'm free to play and usually play arena and I have pretty much every card I could ever want. It is still a f2p game you just have to actually be good...
The problem with Jade Golems is not shaman, it's strong but not unfair. The problem for control decks is not shaman, it's Jade Idol. Blizzard should either nerf it, removing the shuffle 3 idols in your deck (would be a big overnerf) OR increasing the mana cost of Jade Idol every time cast by (1) up to a maximum of 10. This will make the combo with Gadgetzan Auctioneer much less effective.
First of all, I think a theoretical analysis is only useful if you also take the reality (= Metagame and Class Synergies) into account.
For example your nerf for Jade Claw does not consider its role in Jade Shaman decks. Its one of their few anti aggro options. It also has an overload of one stopping the opponent from playing anything but a totem in his next turn when Claws was played on curve.
Nerfing Jade lighning as you suggested either stops it from killing azure drakes or on curve 4-3 Charges (cant remember the name-The pirate warrior 4 drop)
Your nerf to Jade Behemoth ruins Jade druids only taunt. I can now be killed by Arcanite Reaper which is quite relevant.
Overall I think you made this analysis with too much focus on control decks. The average of 10 golems is simply too high with efficient aggro decks like Warrior and Rogue around. From my experience with Jade Shaman in wild i can say that games ussually end with 3-5 golems played, depending on if I win or lose.
The average of 10 golems is imo too high even in the control vs jade matchup. Renolock and Dragon-Reno-Priests (not the pure Reno-Priests though) can outtempo Jade Druid in the earlygame with either hard to remove dragons (druid is VERY low on removal) or a big giant or twilight drake. But there are also tools to recover in the late game. For example a ten mana kazakus potion, a leeroy combo or a N'Zoth when thinking about the wild format. Jarraxus can also be used to outvalue Shaman or Rogue. Jades generaly build up very slow. Apart from best case scenarios you will only face down a 3-3 to 4-4 Jade golem at turn 6. The number of Jade cards is low enough so that a Druid or Shaman cant consistently follow those first golems up. Jade golems only start getting good at around turn 10. Thats ussually the point where they summon their 6-6 golem. Shaman doesnt have enough Jade cards to ramp their golems up faster and has to play very resource efficient.
The only exception to this is brann. With bran shamans can pump out two (or even 4) Jade golems in a turn. I think that those bran plays are what lets shaman win the control game. Bran lets them surprisingly outtempo an already exhausted control player. Bran is rotating out though so I dont see a need to do something about Jade Shaman.
Now before i talk about druid let me quickly write something down about Jade Rogue. First of all: That deck doesnt exist. There's no need to nerf it. Secondly by taking away Jade Swarmers Stealth you are completely destroying the synergy with Unearthed Raptor, Jade Rogues main strengh.
And now to druid. Druid does counter fatigue decks. Nowadays all control decks run other winconditions (combo, kazakus, N'Zoth, Dragons, Burn). So control decks have a chance to fight through the “endless“ resources of Jade Druid. Reno Lock has it especially easy with the combo or N'Zoth in wild. Though the endless Jades dont come into play often. Most matches between Druid and for example reno lock are won before druids summon there 10th golem. I would even go so far to say that letting Jade Idol only shuffle Jade Idols without the shuffel effect back into the deck the matchups would still play the same. The number of times I dies to the infinity of jade druids with renolock can be counted on one hand.
I thin you are doing the right thing by nerfing not the infinite jades. I think you are on the right track by not trying to nerf the infinity of Jade idol. The matchup for druid against aggro should not suffer from any nerfs to the druid class since its already hard for druid to win against e.g. pirates. Thats what your nerf to Behemoth does. So I cant agree with it at all. Nerfing idol to two mana might make it harder to combo of but when it comes to the point of combo the game was most of the time decided many turns ago and the one additional mana wouldnt chabge much. It would also weaken druids earlygame tremendously (That 1-1 Jade on turn one trades with patches and can prevent 2-3 damage in that matchup).
Sadly I cant think of a way to nerf jade druid without harming their aggro matchup. I was thinking about nerfing Ancient of war that is niwadays played as a two of in Jade druid to thin out their threat count but with ungoro coming in a week I think its pointless to think about possible nerfs now.
Im looking forward to reading your answer and hope for a polite discussion.
Thank you for the reply. I appreciate you taking the time to make a long and thoughtful response. So here is my equally long and thoughtful response :P.
I do agree that a theoretical argument is only useful to a point, as when it is changed to a practical standpoint you do need to take additional considerations into account. However I mostly created the argument for the purpose of trying to explain the community's (or at least a subset of the community's) current negative sentiments towards Jade Golem as a mechanic by trying to analyze it in terms of value.
The assumption of 10 Jade Golem was made mostly because a baseline needed to be established in order to calculate an average value per golem, and I can certainly see why that could be considered too high. However, my logic behind is that there are undoubtedly times when your counter stops at 4/4 or 5/5, whereas there are other games where it gets as high as 14/14 or 15/15 or even more if you can find ways to do it (i.e. Shadowstep, Vanish, Youthful Brewmaster, Gadgetzan Ferryman, Ancient Brewmaster, N'Zoth, the Corruptor, Brann Bronzebeard, any discover effect to find more such as Lotus Agents, Shadowcaster, Madam Goya, etc.). I also chose the number because I believe (and obviously I could be wrong) that the general design philosophy behind Jade Golem is that it should be initially a weak play but as the game progresses it becomes an increasingly powerful play to the point where it would be more powerful than a comparative late-game play. So the concern is setting the number too low (i.e. 4 or 5) means the upper bound is far too high and the cards end up valued in a way that pushes other midrange and/or control options out of the meta (which is more or less what has happened, but I recognize there are more factors in this than just Jade Golem). So then the question becomes "What is a reasonable number of Jade Golem you can expect to summon in a game to establish a baseline?" I personally think 10, but for the sake of argument here is what the numbers would be if the assumption was 6-12:
My proposed nerfs would be changing the average cost to 2 mana, which would be the average value of summoning 4 golems ((0.5+1.5+2.5+3.5)/4=2) in a game, which in my opinion is a reasonable change and would still feel reasonable even if I'd assumed say 8 rather than 10.
To address your comments for each class specifically, let's go to Shaman. For Jade Claws, it certainly does serve a board control purpose for the early game. Changing to a 1/3 would hurt that tremendously, and perhaps there is another way of doing it (i.e. 2/3 with overload (2) to name a possibility). But Shaman as a class does have many other options for anti-aggro if they chose to use them instead (i.e. Maelstrom Portal, Lightning Storm, Stormforged Axe, Spirit Claws, Feral Spirit, Elemental Destruction, Jinyu Waterspeaker, etc.) so I'm not convinced Jade Claws has to be it. Now, are all the options I listed "meta-good?" No, of course not, but I think that speaks to the systematic overpowering of 1-2 mana cards (which is a rant for another time) and I worry about the solution of making cards like Jade Claws overpowered to deal with other overpowered cards like pirates because that is how power creep occurs.
For Jade Lightning, I think either of the potential nerfs I suggested would still allow for either of the examples your suggested. If it dealt 3 damage, it still kills Kor'kron Elite on curve, and with spell damage (which Shaman has easy access to through its hero power even if it didn't use cards like Bloodmage Thalnos or Azure Drake) it can kill an Azure Drake. If it cost 5 mana it definitely kills an Azure Drake, though it wouldn't still deal with Kor'kron Elite on curve, But maybe that's okay. Not every card needs to do everything, so maybe it's okay you use things like Stormcrack or Lightning Bolt to counter on curve.
Moving on to Rogue, you are right that Jade Rogue ain't doing so hot. Perhaps changing Jade Swarmer is overkill to Jade Golem as an archetype, and I primarily suggested it for calculation consistency. Of all my proposed changes it is the one I would be fine not happening.
Finally, onto Druid. The main matchup that would be affected by my proposed changes would be the aggro matchup, and I personally think that's okay. Bringing it back to the general jade philosophy I proposed, Jade Golem is supposed to start weak but grow to tremendous value if the game goes long enough. So it seems reasonable for cards like Jade Idol to exist since it fits that philosophy (which is why I think the problem with Jade Idol is the cost not the effect), Jade Golem as a mechanic in theory should naturally then be a strong counter to control decks. However, this means it should naturally be less favoured against aggro. After all, how to do you stop something that grows to infinite value? Kill it before it grows too much. Which is why I think changing Jade Behemoth to essentially a Sen'jin Shieldmasta+Jade Golem seems reasonable. Now does that mean I'm fine with pirates trampling all over Druid? No, of course not. But I think the way to fix that is to reduce the power of pirates (i.e. nerfs) to put it in line with what it reasonably should be rather than keeping Jade Druid overpowered in order to stay in line with another overpowered archetype (but that is a rant for another time).
I completely understand if you (or anyone else reading this wall of text) disagrees with me, but I thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts and hope it sparks more thoughtful discussion. Cheers.
Having played a very budget version Jade Druid recently in a shameless attempt at ranks (Which surprisingly didn't work...) I think the valuing on Jade Idol is a bit iffy. I'm of the opinion that despite the ability to spew continuous Jade Golems it's still a bit risky. I played against it a few times with a dragon-Patches-netdeck monstrosity and found points where I was outclassed at about 6/6 and 7/7 Golems. I'd say while I support your opinions on needing rebalance, I'm not sure 2 mana is safe. 1/1 nothing is pretty weak turn one or worse, 2/3 summon 1/1 for four. Often you can lose enough tempo early enough in my experience to bottom out and die before you can even begin dropping anything bigger than 5/5. I do actually really like the Jade Idol "Draw on summon effect" you recommend though actually lategame that's way more terrifying with Gadgetzan Auctioneer.
In terms of Jade Claws, I'm wondering if maybe keeping it 2/2 and having the Jade Golem as a Deathrattle might balance it better. Jade Claws wrecks me more than any other Jade card I generally run into. Though...
I haven't run into Aya Blackpaw as often as I feel is necessary to really talk about it... I honestly don't think it's overtuned. I find that by the sense of it being a legendary it's inconsitent in my runs... and frankly I regret crafting it this close to the new expansion. I'd argue that cost change isn't necessary, but flipping the stats might help. If I compare her more to a contemporary, I.E. Sylvanas Windrunner, her Deathrattle is imensely easy to trigger and far harder to play around. If she was at 3/5 you wouldn't get overrun by Jades as quick from her.
If I think of anything else I'll post. Nice stats by the way, bloody professional.
Honestly i think the problem isnt even jade, its Auctioneer. I realy dont know why Blizz didnt use the chance to put him already into Alstar Set with Rag and Co.
As a rogue main im so dissapointed we get cards like the new Petal Stuff just because Blizz is rebalancing everything around that one card.
Honestly i would like to see a Buff to those to make them valuable and let Auctioneer go for good. And with that Jade druid is basically in line because you have a harder tme to do lategame jade spam.
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I think a bigger problem is that Jade cards genuinely limit design space. How can Blizzard destroy Bladeflurry to make room for other cards but make a card like Jade Idol which is basically a single card autowin against slower decks? Looking at Un'goro with all it's huge dinosaurs they'll just lose against any midrange/control jade decks because you can't keep up with 1 mana 7/7s and 8/8s or a 5/3 that summons a 4/4 and when it dies summons a 5/5. I like the changes but the ability to generate unlimited jades is the biggest problem. Jades would be fine at their mana cost if most stopped around 5/5 or 6/6.
stop complaining jade.
build pay to win druid next weeks. 20 legendary+spell. free win vs f2p and most match up
with brann out, the level drops across the board a bit, keep that in mind. Brann usually gets one extra jade, and draws out a medium strength removal.
IMO (disclaimer: I play jade shaman) the problem with jade is Jade Idol because it changes jade druid from the usual ramp BS, which is annoying but mostly balanced to infinite golem auction insanity with multiple 8/8s and up in a turn that's just unrecoverable. Jade Behemoth, while fine on it's own, makes it a good bit harder to kill the auctioneer. Or the significantly bigger golem behind him..
Jade shaman is fine. I'm tired of hearing QQ about jade decks when you really mean jade druid. I usually get out about 6-7 jade golems in a game, and honestly I think that's about what they were intended to do. Yeah, a 2 mana weapon that makes a free 6/6 is scary, but it's only possible late enough in the game that a 6/6 isn't gamebreaking on it's own. And you can call me a bad, but I usually end up rank 12 or 13 in a season, I could get higher playing dragon priest or something but I legitimately enjoy playing the Jade Chieftain + Evolve variant. It's a lot of fun!
Jade rogue is a joke, just like C'thun rogue. Yeah, I still remember you, Blade of C'Thun. The *only* C'thun synergy rogue got. And then only two jade cards, compared to three in both druid and shaman... And while Jade Shuriken is fine, Jade Swarmer is crap. 2 mana for a 1 health minion that only makes golems when it dies? Even the rogue hero power has better value ):
TL;DR - Jade is fine, Jade Idol is bonkers.
Jade Druid is tier 2 and you complain???? For real???? What rank are you last season???
AJAX AMSTERDAM
Personally I'd increase mana cost of Jade Spirit to 5 mana to screw up a larger portion of jade openings-midgame across all three classes. Their average winrate would go down a bit, which might lead to their lesser presence in the meta.
P.S. I don't think Jade Idol needs a nerf - and that's a golden priest talking. As a designer you don't need to completely kill decks - you want to make some less attractive.
"Infinite" doen't mean "big" - it can be small and have no end.
The problem with Jade Golems is not shaman, it's strong but not unfair. The problem for control decks is not shaman, it's Jade Idol. Blizzard should either nerf it, removing the shuffle 3 idols in your deck (would be a big overnerf) OR increasing the mana cost of Jade Idol every time cast by (1) up to a maximum of 10. This will make the combo with Gadgetzan Auctioneer much less effective.
Having played a very budget version Jade Druid recently in a shameless attempt at ranks (Which surprisingly didn't work...) I think the valuing on Jade Idol is a bit iffy. I'm of the opinion that despite the ability to spew continuous Jade Golems it's still a bit risky. I played against it a few times with a dragon-Patches-netdeck monstrosity and found points where I was outclassed at about 6/6 and 7/7 Golems. I'd say while I support your opinions on needing rebalance, I'm not sure 2 mana is safe. 1/1 nothing is pretty weak turn one or worse, 2/3 summon 1/1 for four. Often you can lose enough tempo early enough in my experience to bottom out and die before you can even begin dropping anything bigger than 5/5. I do actually really like the Jade Idol "Draw on summon effect" you recommend though actually lategame that's way more terrifying with Gadgetzan Auctioneer.
In terms of Jade Claws, I'm wondering if maybe keeping it 2/2 and having the Jade Golem as a Deathrattle might balance it better. Jade Claws wrecks me more than any other Jade card I generally run into. Though...
I haven't run into Aya Blackpaw as often as I feel is necessary to really talk about it... I honestly don't think it's overtuned. I find that by the sense of it being a legendary it's inconsitent in my runs... and frankly I regret crafting it this close to the new expansion. I'd argue that cost change isn't necessary, but flipping the stats might help. If I compare her more to a contemporary, I.E. Sylvanas Windrunner, her Deathrattle is imensely easy to trigger and far harder to play around. If she was at 3/5 you wouldn't get overrun by Jades as quick from her.
If I think of anything else I'll post. Nice stats by the way, bloody professional.
Honestly i think the problem isnt even jade, its Auctioneer. I realy dont know why Blizz didnt use the chance to put him already into Alstar Set with Rag and Co.
As a rogue main im so dissapointed we get cards like the new Petal Stuff just because Blizz is rebalancing everything around that one card.
Honestly i would like to see a Buff to those to make them valuable and let Auctioneer go for good. And with that Jade druid is basically in line because you have a harder tme to do lategame jade spam.