Combo decks are fun to pilot and a blast to play, and while I disagree with certain people (notably Kripp) who say that top tier gameplay should be Combo vs Combo, I just don't understand why everyone hates combo decks.
Honestly, there are some pretty big tells on if someone is playing a combo deck, so it's not as though the wins "Come out of nowhere". And it's not as though losing to two 20/6 Leeroy Jenkins or a 40/40 Djinni of Zephers is really any different than losing to a 3/2 for five turns.
Heck, True combo decks don't even exist in this game yet, at least compared to MtG where T4 you're dead in Modern (Living End) or T1 wins in legacy (Storm). All they really are are control decks with a combo finish, so more like Splinter Twin.
I just don't understand why I'm getting so much hate for playing Malygos Shaman or Miracle Rogue since I'm not playing a Pirate deck, a Reno deck, or a Jade deck. I don't understand why everyone wants new, exciting cards that enable new strategies but then shit on Emperor Thaurissan.
People don't want to play against Midrange all the time, Secret Paladin taught us that. People don't want to play against Aggro all the time, Hunter and Pirates have taught us that. I can tell you from MtG experience that no one wants to play against Control 100% of the time either. But let us have our combo, along with those decks. Combo is just another tool to keep Control in check when/if it ever gets buffed too much. In fact, if Combo were stronger and there were enough Combo decks to keep Control in check, you could see a substantive buff in Control decks (due to the Aggro deck being prevalent due to Combo, and control countering Aggro if they had better tools).
I like combo decks in theory (Especially Malygosbased ones), but in Hearthstone 75% of the time a "Combo" deck is just an OTK deck that relies on you having decent draw for your combo pieces. If you get a decent draw your opponent just goes and makes a sandwich while you kill them all at once, while if you don't you just... Flop over and die pathetically. Neither of those two things is much fun for someone.
I have honestly never heard anyone complain about combo decks.
...how long have you been on Hearthpwn? That's one of the most hated archetypes here, because it's "uninteractive", and tends to abuse slow Control archetypes. It might not be most Hearthpwn users, but the extremely vocal minority is only taking a break from ranting about something like Jade Idol or Miracle Rogue because Aggro is more prevalent on ladder.
That being said, combo in HS is kind of hard to make fun for both players. I actually like the dynamics of matchups like Freeze Mage, Anyfin Paladin, Combo Renolock, Miracle, etc. because I have to play with their win condition in mind; but for the most part when it goes off there's literally nothing you can do while it's going off. So overall it's a lot of fun to play, but not a lot of fun to lose to.
Personally I don't have a good solution for it without implementing instant-speed spells, but for the most part I think it's a healthy archetype to have them keep pushing and experimenting with. If you look at something like Jade Druid or Anyfin Paladin you have a pretty interactive amount of stuff going on for instance, and that makes it feel like you have a bit more control in how the match plays out.
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Now that Dirty Rat exists there should be no reason to dislike combo decks. Before, there was really nothing you could do against an OTK combo besides try to pressure them or be a Warrior and gain a bunch of armor, so it felt very un-interactive.
Now if combo decks got back to tier 1, everyone would just add Dirty Rat to their decks and have fun ruining combos. Even better, unlike Pirate Warriors that all run Acidic Swamp Ooze to counter other Pirate Warriors, lots of Dirty Rats in the meta would push away from combo and towards midrange decks. It's an example of a well designed card that has a tendency to keep the meta in balance so one type of deck doesn't get out of control.
Combo decks are fun to pilot and a blast to play, and while I disagree with certain people (notably Kripp) who say that top tier gameplay should be Combo vs Combo, I just don't understand why everyone hates combo decks.
Combo decks that allow interaction with the opponent and don't have one-sided advantage throughout the whole game are fine IMO, basically the opponent should still be able to beat you down to 12 health and below while you can OTK him/her at the end would be a fair game.
All those decks are fine, except for the pre-nerf Combo Druid when they were capable of controlling the board throughout the game and just OTK the opponent at the end, allowing the opponent to do nothing.
You stall the game and draw cards and then just win.
Combo decks are not a matter of skill as they should be, it's a matter of luck. You either get the right sequence by turn 10 or you don't.
Combo decks are meant to be the high skill ceiling decks and hearthstone just doesn't have a good record of making that true.
If you can have 25 draw + removal tools on your deck and 5 cards that just auto win, you're not playing well, you're just not letting your opponent play at all. Also Thaurissan make things even worse because you can make even more sick combos with less requirement for card and mana management.
Stuff like Anyfin Can Happen is how combo should be made in this game. A combo over the course of the game. Not a single "Dump your hand and win". Throughout the whole game vs Anyfin Pally both players have to make crucial choices on where to spend their mana, how and when to drop their minions and what removal to use and when. You can polymorph and Entomb a Warleader but then you don't have it for Tirion. Which is more likely to win the game for you? Can you be sure they even have Tirion? Are you gonna have another removal and answer to it by then?
Should Pally get another Anyfin from Horse/knight card? Or get more draw? Or just focus on healing? Have you counted how many murlocs you played this game? If you use anyfin now much damage can you make? What are the chances of the second anyfin winning the match for you?
It's just so much more choice and interesting play and counter-play that make the combo deck never feel unfair. You can always lose a match to it and think "Man, if I had use polymorth here." or "If had saved reno for one more turn." or "Man, that was just bad luck on my part" instead of: "OMFG THIS IS ANNOYING, I had 26 damage on board, cleared Ice Block but my minions could do nothing because they got frozen for 4 turns and the mage just burned down my face"
Hearthstone has a big issue where the cards are individually too powerful and carry very little to later turns after they are used. This makes combo just an unfair archetype. They try to fix it by bringing either broken or conditional tools for you to counter that in tech cards like Loatheb and Dirty Rat. But since very little people play combo they are either too broken or very much of a gambit to make them usable in many decks instead of like other hundred bad tech cards in the game.
I am pretty sure the main reason is because you are completely powerless during your opponent's turn.
If MtG is anything to go by, whether it is about aggro, control or combo, then we gotta remember that in MtG you choose which of your creatures block your opponent's, removal is much cheaper, mass boardclears aren't excruciatingly slow, and there are instants if your opponent gets too frisky, as well as ways to completely change how the game is played.
In HS, the best thing we got is Secrets and Dirty Rat. Besides having almost always sucked gameplay-wise, secrets are exclusive to 3 classes, and Dirty Rat only goes as far as minions go (let alone the fact that combo decks always have a big hand, so it can be difficult to get rid of what you want).
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
Grim patron and djinni priest are my two favorite examples of combo decks. Patron was just a touch too strong at the skill cap but had that been tweaked a bit it would have been great. Both these decks have a general win strategy but required seeing multiple paths to victory and/playing unique situations to maximize the win rates. They also both involved using combo type plays to spur the decks draw while also controlling the board. Anyfin pally is also very similar to this. I would love it if more decks were like this. Avianna Kun on the other hand is just a draw the pieces and win deck. If these decks loose a piece to dirty rat or if a key piece is at the bottom of the deck they just loose. If you can't kill them before the combo is drawn, they just win.
The combo decks that people don't like to lose to, especially newer players, are the OTK variety. From the losers point of view they were fine and then suddenly *wham!*
Blizzard knows this, and these are the decks that people give flack for being 'uninteractive'.
Sadly, most of the combo decks of the past have been pretty high skill cap, and most can be pressured hard enough to burn combo pieces for survival - which is what screwed up Miracle Rogue 1.0 to the point that you could take down the deck, despite that deck drawing itself into fatigue.
Combo decks are the only decks that I don't ever grow tired of. They're a blast to play and require thinking multiple turns ahead to find your win condition. I've never felt salty getting killed by these decks like I do getting bashed in the face for 4 turns to death by an idiot aggro deck using op cards. I don't understand why people say there's no counter play? Just like any matchup, sometimes you have the answers to stop what your opponent is trying to do, and sometimes you don't.
Just from my point of view, I'd have to say that combo decks are some of the most beloved archetypes of all time. Ask Thijs, Firebat, Zalae, or many of the other streamers or popular pro players. The answers you'll get are Freeze Mage, Miracle Rogue, pre-nerf Patron Warrior, all decks that required a heavy amount of cycle and correct sequencing in order to succeed. I definitely think that it is of the unpopular opinion that no one loves combo decks.
Sadly, most of the combo decks of the past have been pretty high skill cap, and most can be pressured hard enough to burn combo pieces for survival - which is what screwed up Miracle Rogue 1.0 to the point that you could take down the deck, despite that deck drawing itself into fatigue.
I've never played this deck so I'm going to ask this question has humbly as I can. What exactly is the skill-cap for Freeze Mage? From the other side it seems like the deck is mainly cycle until you get the combo, and to aid you in that endeavor you have stall tools like Block and mass freezing. And so to me it seems rather linear. What other considerations do freeze players have to make that I'm missing?
Sadly, most of the combo decks of the past have been pretty high skill cap, and most can be pressured hard enough to burn combo pieces for survival - which is what screwed up Miracle Rogue 1.0 to the point that you could take down the deck, despite that deck drawing itself into fatigue.
I've never played this deck so I'm going to ask this question has humbly as I can. What exactly is the skill-cap for Freeze Mage? From the other side it seems like the deck is mainly cycle until you get the combo, and to aid you in that endeavor you have stall tools like Block and mass freezing. And so to me it seems rather linear. What other considerations do freeze players have to make that I'm missing?
the considerations are like: do I play nova and doomsayer now, or can I afford to wait 1 more turn... timing decisions mostly are extremely difficult to get right... 1 turn too early and you put yourself in a difficult position, 1 turn too late and you cannot recover...
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Combo decks are fun to pilot and a blast to play, and while I disagree with certain people (notably Kripp) who say that top tier gameplay should be Combo vs Combo, I just don't understand why everyone hates combo decks.
Examples of Combo decks:
-Djinni Priest
-Malygos..... anything, really.
-Freeze Mage
-Miracle Rogue
-Renolock
-Tweety Druid
Honestly, there are some pretty big tells on if someone is playing a combo deck, so it's not as though the wins "Come out of nowhere". And it's not as though losing to two 20/6 Leeroy Jenkins or a 40/40 Djinni of Zephers is really any different than losing to a 3/2 for five turns.
Heck, True combo decks don't even exist in this game yet, at least compared to MtG where T4 you're dead in Modern (Living End) or T1 wins in legacy (Storm). All they really are are control decks with a combo finish, so more like Splinter Twin.
I just don't understand why I'm getting so much hate for playing Malygos Shaman or Miracle Rogue since I'm not playing a Pirate deck, a Reno deck, or a Jade deck. I don't understand why everyone wants new, exciting cards that enable new strategies but then shit on Emperor Thaurissan.
People don't want to play against Midrange all the time, Secret Paladin taught us that. People don't want to play against Aggro all the time, Hunter and Pirates have taught us that. I can tell you from MtG experience that no one wants to play against Control 100% of the time either. But let us have our combo, along with those decks. Combo is just another tool to keep Control in check when/if it ever gets buffed too much. In fact, if Combo were stronger and there were enough Combo decks to keep Control in check, you could see a substantive buff in Control decks (due to the Aggro deck being prevalent due to Combo, and control countering Aggro if they had better tools).
I have honestly never heard anyone complain about combo decks.
I don't know, but i love combo decks.
I like combo decks in theory (Especially Malygosbased ones), but in Hearthstone 75% of the time a "Combo" deck is just an OTK deck that relies on you having decent draw for your combo pieces. If you get a decent draw your opponent just goes and makes a sandwich while you kill them all at once, while if you don't you just... Flop over and die pathetically. Neither of those two things is much fun for someone.
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Now that Dirty Rat exists there should be no reason to dislike combo decks. Before, there was really nothing you could do against an OTK combo besides try to pressure them or be a Warrior and gain a bunch of armor, so it felt very un-interactive.
Now if combo decks got back to tier 1, everyone would just add Dirty Rat to their decks and have fun ruining combos. Even better, unlike Pirate Warriors that all run Acidic Swamp Ooze to counter other Pirate Warriors, lots of Dirty Rats in the meta would push away from combo and towards midrange decks. It's an example of a well designed card that has a tendency to keep the meta in balance so one type of deck doesn't get out of control.
Because combo has no counterplay.
You stall the game and draw cards and then just win.
Combo decks are not a matter of skill as they should be, it's a matter of luck. You either get the right sequence by turn 10 or you don't.
Combo decks are meant to be the high skill ceiling decks and hearthstone just doesn't have a good record of making that true.
If you can have 25 draw + removal tools on your deck and 5 cards that just auto win, you're not playing well, you're just not letting your opponent play at all. Also Thaurissan make things even worse because you can make even more sick combos with less requirement for card and mana management.
Stuff like Anyfin Can Happen is how combo should be made in this game. A combo over the course of the game. Not a single "Dump your hand and win". Throughout the whole game vs Anyfin Pally both players have to make crucial choices on where to spend their mana, how and when to drop their minions and what removal to use and when. You can polymorph and Entomb a Warleader but then you don't have it for Tirion. Which is more likely to win the game for you? Can you be sure they even have Tirion? Are you gonna have another removal and answer to it by then?
Should Pally get another Anyfin from Horse/knight card? Or get more draw? Or just focus on healing? Have you counted how many murlocs you played this game? If you use anyfin now much damage can you make? What are the chances of the second anyfin winning the match for you?
It's just so much more choice and interesting play and counter-play that make the combo deck never feel unfair. You can always lose a match to it and think "Man, if I had use polymorth here." or "If had saved reno for one more turn." or "Man, that was just bad luck on my part" instead of: "OMFG THIS IS ANNOYING, I had 26 damage on board, cleared Ice Block but my minions could do nothing because they got frozen for 4 turns and the mage just burned down my face"
Hearthstone has a big issue where the cards are individually too powerful and carry very little to later turns after they are used. This makes combo just an unfair archetype. They try to fix it by bringing either broken or conditional tools for you to counter that in tech cards like Loatheb and Dirty Rat. But since very little people play combo they are either too broken or very much of a gambit to make them usable in many decks instead of like other hundred bad tech cards in the game.
I am pretty sure the main reason is because you are completely powerless during your opponent's turn.
If MtG is anything to go by, whether it is about aggro, control or combo, then we gotta remember that in MtG you choose which of your creatures block your opponent's, removal is much cheaper, mass boardclears aren't excruciatingly slow, and there are instants if your opponent gets too frisky, as well as ways to completely change how the game is played.
In HS, the best thing we got is Secrets and Dirty Rat. Besides having almost always sucked gameplay-wise, secrets are exclusive to 3 classes, and Dirty Rat only goes as far as minions go (let alone the fact that combo decks always have a big hand, so it can be difficult to get rid of what you want).
Of course, I say this, but I do tinker with Prophet Velen, Malygos and Stormwind Knight+Velen's Chosen+Divine Spiritx2+Inner Fire fairly regularly. However, since you wanted reasons, here were mine.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
Grim patron and djinni priest are my two favorite examples of combo decks. Patron was just a touch too strong at the skill cap but had that been tweaked a bit it would have been great. Both these decks have a general win strategy but required seeing multiple paths to victory and/playing unique situations to maximize the win rates. They also both involved using combo type plays to spur the decks draw while also controlling the board. Anyfin pally is also very similar to this. I would love it if more decks were like this. Avianna Kun on the other hand is just a draw the pieces and win deck. If these decks loose a piece to dirty rat or if a key piece is at the bottom of the deck they just loose. If you can't kill them before the combo is drawn, they just win.
The combo decks that people don't like to lose to, especially newer players, are the OTK variety. From the losers point of view they were fine and then suddenly *wham!*
Blizzard knows this, and these are the decks that people give flack for being 'uninteractive'.
Sadly, most of the combo decks of the past have been pretty high skill cap, and most can be pressured hard enough to burn combo pieces for survival - which is what screwed up Miracle Rogue 1.0 to the point that you could take down the deck, despite that deck drawing itself into fatigue.
This space intentionally left blank.
Combo decks are the only decks that I don't ever grow tired of. They're a blast to play and require thinking multiple turns ahead to find your win condition. I've never felt salty getting killed by these decks like I do getting bashed in the face for 4 turns to death by an idiot aggro deck using op cards. I don't understand why people say there's no counter play? Just like any matchup, sometimes you have the answers to stop what your opponent is trying to do, and sometimes you don't.
Because watching your opponent throw a bunch of spells at your face at 30 hp isn't particularly fun or interactive.
Fuck cubelock
If top tier was combo v. combo, all we'd here about was how "RNG" (i.e. drawing specific cards before your opponent) dominates the game.
Just from my point of view, I'd have to say that combo decks are some of the most beloved archetypes of all time. Ask Thijs, Firebat, Zalae, or many of the other streamers or popular pro players. The answers you'll get are Freeze Mage, Miracle Rogue, pre-nerf Patron Warrior, all decks that required a heavy amount of cycle and correct sequencing in order to succeed. I definitely think that it is of the unpopular opinion that no one loves combo decks.
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Combo decks are fun to play and infuriating to play against. The latter compensates for the former.
That said freeze mage is the only combo decks against which you have nearly no counterplay unless you're warrior, and it will be gone next rotation :D
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