There will always be whining in PvP games because a huge section of the playerbase are psychologically ill-suited to playing a game where there is a winner and a loser.
If they can't win all the time, they get angry.
Really, they'd be happier if they stayed far away from competitive games and sports and stuck to passive hobbies like reading, watching TV, or listening to music.
For me this isn't about winning/losing at all. Say i can enjoy an arena game where both players used the tools provided, even the sub-optimal ones, to maximum extent. Its OK to be outsmarted by someone, even i lose it @11-2; and it's of course feels good to outsmart someone. I can of course win some games by throwing a couple lava bursts or a pyroblast to my opponents face or smash it with some 6/3 arcanite reaper + heroic strike; will it bring me any joy? No, cause its plain stupid and requires little to no brain activity. Losing to these also hardly brings any emotions, its dumb at its best.
On the current ladder 95% of the games on higher ranks are basically decided by coin flip which imho isn't healthy at all, and the decks that people use become more and more straightforward, with majority of them being either hyper-smorcs or reno. Some classes/archetypes (i'm not speaking of some gimmicky decks of course) being almost unplayable/nonexistent is also a problem, as it is the ridiculous amount of RNG cards/effects.
BTW, if you mentioned competition and sports (hearthstone in its current sorry state hardly falls in that category), would you name any sports discipline where its normal say for 30-50% of contestants to legally use doping? Now hs looks more like casual game for 6 year old kids despite some potential for not being such if you ask me.
You proved his point and frankly the ladder clearly isn't for you. Tough shit. No one needs to cater specifically to you. Use the other modes.
As a Priest player I can say that Pirate Warrior is a pretty hard deck to beat. Our 1-3 drops are easily traded into, so the first few turns we're trying to save some life. Best bet is dropping Guardian turn 4, which still often dies that turn. Our board clears don't kill the actual dangerous minions with 4 health (dragonfire potion doesn't count as it's too slow) and it's quite possible to drop Reno turn 6 and still be dead a few turns later. Reno has the worst chance because of the inconsistency and lack of strong low cost minions. Doomsayer is just "restore 7 health"
Dragon Priest can win the game with good curve, but we still get out valued by a lot of control decks and even Jade Druid if we can't go face fast enough, ironically.
And shaman just beats everything, let's not even go there. I don't care if it's aggro, midrange or control, shaman just have some of the best tools in the game right now and I can't wait for rotation
"Greed IS NOT Control. Control strategy MUST BE ADAPTIVE. They have to follow up, NOT to play their own big bad minions and combos and greedy stuff, as if the opponent was not even there!"
Very, very well said.
Control decks have some learning curve so you have to play them a lot to know how to pilot. But when people are becoming familiar with the deck they are very reluctant to change a card or two to adapt to the meta. And this is especially because they didn't build it, they are afraid that any change will break the deck. So they are becoming the biggest part of the staled game.
The skill in this game is not only to pilot a deck, but to adapt to the environment (meta), to build decks that are defining the future meta. Actually, I think this is the real skill in this game and this is what separate common players from those who constantly are at the top.
If you hate the RNG effects it seems like it's only going to get worse over time.
Kazakus is the ULTIMATE RNG card. Getting a good or bad roll on the potion and the results of the potion decides many games.
Oh, your summon 3 friendly potion pulled your doomsayer, well tough shit, now you lose the game.
That's why i rather prefer dirty rat over doomsayer :D
Uh, dirty rat serves a totally different purpose than doomsayer though.
There are people who play doomsayer stupidly in reno vs reno matches though. Like playing doomsayer on an empty board, or playing it to kill your opponent's babbling book.
If the timing is correct, it isn't a bad play at all.
If you draw / play a secret and want to deny a t6 Emperor or t9 Alex I'd play him on empty board. Just make sure to not have value minions in hand because of the Dirty Rat.
The odds of someone having an emperor on turn 6 are pretty low, considering that almost nobody would keep that on the mulligan. Making a play that'll be pointless 2/3rds of the time doesn't seem like good odds...
When someone says you aren't beating aggro with control because of greed. -_- so running 2 actual win cons and a deck teched against shaman and pirates is greed? Most warrior lists nowdays can't even afford alex in a slot which was the classic 2 turn kill combo finisher. Elise and grom that is all and some don't even run elise.
When someone says you aren't beating aggro with control because of greed. -_- so running 2 actual win cons and a deck teched against shaman and pirates is greed? Most warrior lists nowdays can't even afford alex in a slot which was the classic 2 turn kill combo finisher. Elise and grom that is all and some don't even run elise.
If that's the case then you should be beating aggro. If not then you're misplaying it.
It's also funny how people try to act like playing aggro is just click face. If that's all you do you'll be rank 10 at best.
They are easy decks to play with few rounds to plan for, no-matter how many strawmen or texas sharpshooter fallacies you try to cram into your statements.
HS has become an uninteresting game. It isn't all down to the current aggro. The design has very deliberately moved the game towards very dominant, powerful decks yet simple decks to play over the last 3 expansions.
I think for the first time in a few years I haven't played HS in several weeks. And it's not because I think the game is horrible, but because it's so uninteresting that I don't even think about it being on my computer when I sit down for a gaming session.
I personally am not having an issue with aggro was simply pointing out alot of lists aren't greedy:/on a slightly different note, sleep with the fishes is a real nice board clear and is essentially a 2 card flametrike for 5 with ghoul.
^this guy shows up on the hearthpwn forums 1 week ago and magically knows everything there is to know about everything in the entire world.
when will you realize that we don't care? like damn dude if I have to read any more of your comments I might have to start bitching about you being here.
This guy reached Legend rank 5. It's more then enough to say about his playing skill. If you think you know something better at your Rank 5 non-Legend, you're wrong. At least have enough brain - don't argue and go start bitching to another thread.
^this guy shows up on the hearthpwn forums 1 week ago and magically knows everything there is to know about everything in the entire world.
when will you realize that we don't care? like damn dude if I have to read any more of your comments I might have to start bitching about you being here.
This guy reached Legend rank 5. It's more then enough to say about his playing skill. If you think you know something better at your Rank 5 non-Legend, you're wrong. At least have enough brain - don't argue and go start bitching to another thread.
I think you misunderstand... I'm not bitching he is read the damn thread lol. I could care less about what rank he hit... hes still a whining, bragging, know it all.
Sure, it is annoying that there's always something to complain about, but the thing is, NOTHING is more annoying than aggro. It's people being able to get to Legend by spamming face while fighting people with decks that are well thought-out and creative. It makes the game boring and stale - Games against Aggro are "Okay, how do I maximize value, be the least greedy possible, and heal so I'm not dead at turn effing four?"
Against control it's "How do I outsmart and deal with their plays?"
Midrange is "How do I screw up their tempo and gain lots of board control?"
Reno Decks are "How do I make it so I can kill them before they get Reno or make it so they have to use it at times they don't want to?"
Mill/Fatigue Decks are "How do I get the most value?"
See, all Aggro is is them pounding you to a pulp as you try to heal yourself then realize you're playing Renolock and you had to coin out T5 Reno and on T7 you're at 13 HP.... And your rank goes down the drain.
Aggro decks are not fun to play against as you A). can't do anything but wait it out (You're going to die) and B). Aren't even playing someone who uses strategy, just goes FACE so now you have to deal with all his minions that he didn't trade.
The problem with Aggro is that it'll always be there, and it's just someone with cheeto-crusted fingers sitting at their $80 PC chugging month-old Mountain Dew. It isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to play against.
Sure, it is annoying that there's always something to complain about, but the thing is, NOTHING is more annoying than aggro. It's people being able to get to Legend by spamming face while fighting people with decks that are well thought-out and creative. It makes the game boring and stale - Games against Aggro are "Okay, how do I maximize value, be the least greedy possible, and heal so I'm not dead at turn effing four?"
Against control it's "How do I outsmart and deal with their plays?"
Midrange is "How do I screw up their tempo and gain lots of board control?"
Reno Decks are "How do I make it so I can kill them before they get Reno or make it so they have to use it at times they don't want to?"
Mill/Fatigue Decks are "How do I get the most value?"
See, all Aggro is is them pounding you to a pulp as you try to heal yourself then realize you're playing Renolock and you had to coin out T5 Reno and on T7 you're at 13 HP.... And your rank goes down the drain.
Aggro decks are not fun to play against as you A). can't do anything but wait it out (You're going to die) and B). Aren't even playing someone who uses strategy, just goes FACE so now you have to deal with all his minions that he didn't trade.
The problem with Aggro is that it'll always be there, and it's just someone with cheeto-crusted fingers sitting at their $80 PC chugging month-old Mountain Dew. It isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to play against.
Sorry you didn't a chance to play all those legendaries you stacked your deck with.
Maybe if you play a deck that's less greedy and has more tools to deal with aggro you won't lose every time.
You can say the same thing about super greedy decks, those don't require any skill, they just hope the game lasts long enough to drop threat after threat that you can't possibly deal with.
Ever think of running your own counter-pirate pirate package of 2 bloodsail corsairs + patches? You can trash their weapon putting their small time back to a 1/2, trade your patches into theirs and now you both have a 1/2 on board.
I just played a game where I got a 4 turn kill against a warlock. Now, aggro haters will probably have some snide comment about that, but if you look at the game: https://hsreplay.net/replay/nCq5FHbEdQSBV2jdBofbCJ
It becomes clear the reason why the 4 turn kill happened is because the warlock decided to be greedy and tap 2 times to play his mountain giant on turn 4, which is a HORRIBLE strategy against aggro. Can't complain about that kind of thing when it's the result of your own misplay.
Of course making stupid greedy plays against aggro is going to backfire on you
Pretty much all of my turn 4/5 kills are partially helped out by a warlock killing himself for me.
Just because there's always something to improve doesn't mean we just never ask for improvements in the first place and accept broken things as they are. If the community took that attitude, we would still be in a place where Hunter is 50% of the meta with 2mana UTH, 2 mana Buzzard, 2/1 Leper etc. Is that what you are suggesting? Unless that's what you're suggesting, let people voice their opinions. Sometimes the community is right.
As a Priest player I can say that Pirate Warrior is a pretty hard deck to beat. Our 1-3 drops are easily traded into, so the first few turns we're trying to save some life. Best bet is dropping Guardian turn 4, which still often dies that turn. Our board clears don't kill the actual dangerous minions with 4 health (dragonfire potion doesn't count as it's too slow) and it's quite possible to drop Reno turn 6 and still be dead a few turns later. Reno has the worst chance because of the inconsistency and lack of strong low cost minions. Doomsayer is just "restore 7 health"
Dragon Priest can win the game with good curve, but we still get out valued by a lot of control decks and even Jade Druid if we can't go face fast enough, ironically.
And shaman just beats everything, let's not even go there. I don't care if it's aggro, midrange or control, shaman just have some of the best tools in the game right now and I can't wait for rotation
I don't think shaman really needs a nerf, it just needs to NOT get anything that's as good as trogg/golem to replace those when it rotates out..
Shaman without trogg/golem is worthless.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
"Greed IS NOT Control.
Control strategy MUST BE ADAPTIVE. They have to follow up, NOT to play their own big bad minions and combos and greedy stuff, as if the opponent was not even there!"
Very, very well said.
Control decks have some learning curve so you have to play them a lot to know how to pilot. But when people are becoming familiar with the deck they are very reluctant to change a card or two to adapt to the meta. And this is especially because they didn't build it, they are afraid that any change will break the deck. So they are becoming the biggest part of the staled game.
The skill in this game is not only to pilot a deck, but to adapt to the environment (meta), to build decks that are defining the future meta. Actually, I think this is the real skill in this game and this is what separate common players from those who constantly are at the top.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
When someone says you aren't beating aggro with control because of greed. -_- so running 2 actual win cons and a deck teched against shaman and pirates is greed? Most warrior lists nowdays can't even afford alex in a slot which was the classic 2 turn kill combo finisher. Elise and grom that is all and some don't even run elise.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
I personally am not having an issue with aggro was simply pointing out alot of lists aren't greedy:/on a slightly different note, sleep with the fishes is a real nice board clear and is essentially a 2 card flametrike for 5 with ghoul.
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Sure, it is annoying that there's always something to complain about, but the thing is, NOTHING is more annoying than aggro. It's people being able to get to Legend by spamming face while fighting people with decks that are well thought-out and creative. It makes the game boring and stale - Games against Aggro are "Okay, how do I maximize value, be the least greedy possible, and heal so I'm not dead at turn effing four?"
Against control it's "How do I outsmart and deal with their plays?"
Midrange is "How do I screw up their tempo and gain lots of board control?"
Reno Decks are "How do I make it so I can kill them before they get Reno or make it so they have to use it at times they don't want to?"
Mill/Fatigue Decks are "How do I get the most value?"
See, all Aggro is is them pounding you to a pulp as you try to heal yourself then realize you're playing Renolock and you had to coin out T5 Reno and on T7 you're at 13 HP.... And your rank goes down the drain.
Aggro decks are not fun to play against as you A). can't do anything but wait it out (You're going to die) and B). Aren't even playing someone who uses strategy, just goes FACE so now you have to deal with all his minions that he didn't trade.
The problem with Aggro is that it'll always be there, and it's just someone with cheeto-crusted fingers sitting at their $80 PC chugging month-old Mountain Dew. It isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to play against.
Why don't you find your way to the salty thread? That's where everyone else goes to tout their ignorance.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
I just played a game where I got a 4 turn kill against a warlock. Now, aggro haters will probably have some snide comment about that, but if you look at the game: https://hsreplay.net/replay/nCq5FHbEdQSBV2jdBofbCJ
It becomes clear the reason why the 4 turn kill happened is because the warlock decided to be greedy and tap 2 times to play his mountain giant on turn 4, which is a HORRIBLE strategy against aggro. Can't complain about that kind of thing when it's the result of your own misplay.
Of course making stupid greedy plays against aggro is going to backfire on you
Pretty much all of my turn 4/5 kills are partially helped out by a warlock killing himself for me.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
^the only snide comments I'm reading on this thread are posted by scout1515
"Of course making stupid greedy plays against aggro is going to backfire on you"
"which is a HORRIBLE strategy against aggro."
"I don't think shaman really needs a nerf"
"The odds of someone having an emperor on turn 6 are pretty low, considering that almost nobody would keep that on the mulligan."
" If that's the case then you should be beating aggro. If not then you're misplaying it."
Is this not snide? does not only aggro but midrange/jade/control shaman also play totem golem?
Just because there's always something to improve doesn't mean we just never ask for improvements in the first place and accept broken things as they are. If the community took that attitude, we would still be in a place where Hunter is 50% of the meta with 2mana UTH, 2 mana Buzzard, 2/1 Leper etc. Is that what you are suggesting? Unless that's what you're suggesting, let people voice their opinions. Sometimes the community is right.